Who has the best soldiers in Westeros, skills wise?

[diskoerekto]

Not if the army there facing has armor and cavalry then theyre screwed, the Dothraki dont use armor.

Real life example shows the Dothraki would eat Westerosi for breakfast and not even belch. On the other hand, once they settle they will get assimilated and get used to Westerosi customs so in the end Westerosi culture would win. Armor and siege equipment are much overrated.

[Fightbringer]

The Golden Company if we're counting them they're from westeros but not in it. Also depends on what you mean by soldiers, i'd take an average ironborn against an average mainlander in a fight, so the ironborn are the best warriors, but they lack the discipline to have the best army. For me its between the westerlanders (i reckon though this is mainly due to the superior equipment and training that many of them would have) or the northmen, who are probably the toughest in westeros behind wildlings and ironborn, and they dont seem to lack the discipline that these two have, and they have a natural advantage when winter comes

[Veltigar]

Best Soldiers: The Golden Company (experience, discipline,…)

Best Warriors: The Ironborn (sadly they lack discipline to be a real threat to the greenlands but Euron might improve that)

[Lord Reaver]

The Ironborn eat Northlanders for breakfast. See Asha's last stand for evidence. Each of her raiders kill about 10 northmen before being killed/captured.

What's this crap about them being worse equipped anyway ? They're shown with just as much arms and armor as anyone else, heck they're known for being crazy enough to wear armor on the ships. Victarion for instance wears a plate as fine as any greenlander knight's.

The only thing the Ironborn are bad at is sieges. And Euron is teaching them how to do that.

[Persepolis]

Real life example shows the Dothraki would eat Westerosi for breakfast and not even belch. On the other hand, once they settle they will get assimilated and get used to Westerosi customs so in the end Westerosi culture would win. Armor and siege equipment are much overrated.

Dothrakis are real? Well, i guess you learn something new everyday.

[Veltigar]

The only thing the Ironborn are bad at is sieges. And Euron is teaching them how to do that.

We haven't actually seen Ironborn lay siege to castles IIRC. Most of the time they go for surprise attacks or head on assaults when it comes down to taking a castle, and they are very succesfull that way. Personally, I consider the Ironborn to be the greatest warriors in the ASOIAF-universe, but they lack discipline and a clear chain of command to become a feared entity once more (they are not soldiers). I think Euron is on his way to mend these flaws.

[Scipio Africanus]

The Ironborn eat Northlanders for breakfast. See Asha's last stand for evidence.

Big burly Ironborn were pwned by demunitive Crannogmen at Moat Cailin. There goes your theory...

Armor and siege equipment are much overrated.

What have you been reading that made you come to this conclusion and please don't bogart whatever you're smoking and pass it around please.

[Lord Reaver]

Why do you say they lack discipline ? Have we seen any examples of a breakdown of discipline ? I could perhaps agree on a larger scale (as in captains doing their own thing when not told otherwise) such as the misguided attempts on Oldtown. But when they are actually in combat, they seem as disciplined as any other army.

[Lord Reaver]

Big burly Ironborn were pwned by demunitive Crannogmen at Moat Cailin. There goes your theory...

Outnumbered by who knows how big odds, sure (remember the Ironborn pulled most of the defenders back when Vic left, what was left was a fairly small force). Also, a superior army can be defeated by a local group of soldiers using guerilla tactics. Would you use the american defeat in Vietnam as argument that the vietnamese army is better then the U.S one, or as argument that the U.S military is not the strongest in the world ?

My theory seems pretty solid still.

[The Holy Goat]

The Ironborn seem to be fearsome opponents, at least on the water where I believe them to be unmatched. Otherwise I think that the Nortmen are among the most capable warriors. They seem to be though and hardy individuals who are very capable in battle. Good leadership is probably more important though.

[MostlyMoody]

I would say unsullied are the best soldiers, note that I say soldiers not warriors. They are disciplined above and beyond, will obey your any order, extremely skilled with whatever weapons they are assigned to, wont flee, rape or get distracted from the mission. You give Unsullied under a command of some great tactician, say Randyll Tarly and you ar pretty much guaranteed a victory.

[King Aerys the Just]

We haven't actually seen Ironborn lay siege to castles IIRC. Most of the time they go for surprise attacks or head on assaults when it comes down to taking a castle, and they are very succesfull that way. Personally, I consider the Ironborn to be the greatest warriors in the ASOIAF-universe, but they lack discipline and a clear chain of command to become a feared entity once more (they are not soldiers). I think Euron is on his way to mend these flaws.

What do you mean by sieges if head on assaults and surprise attacks are counted out? Waiting outside until the besieged run out of food? I don't see how they could have any problems doing that.

The Northmen are maybe worst equipped on average of the proper Westerosi kingdoms, though I don't buy into the "they only have turnip so can't be conquered since they have nothing worth taking" level of poverty some posters claim they suffer from. They might make up that disadvantage by being a bit more militarized and "tough" in general than most Southerners though.

But the Westerlands seem to have the best army, and the Ironborn the most martial population.

[stanniswillwin]

I would like to see how wildlings would do if they were given better equipment and taught how to fight as a unit the see pretty fierce one on on one but lack the equipment and discipline to compete with other soldiers

[mrunderhill]

The best soldiers are probably those under the command of Tywin, Tarly and Stannis. They are well drilled and follow orders better than others.

As for warriors it seems to me the best warriors at the moment seem to be from the Reach.

[k11u]

The question was who has the best soldiers in Westeros, not which region has the best army. The Ironborn are clearly the fiercest fighters. They do not fucking sow, They are born to raid and fight. Sure they can't field as large an army as the other kingdoms and they don't have cavalry but in a melee duel I'd always bet on the Ironborn.

If we are talking about which region has the best army in Westeros I think the Reach and Westerlands would be at the top of my list. Reach would field the largest army with lots of cavalry and they should be able to equip them reasonably well. the Westerlands force might be half to two thirds the size of the Reach's but slightly better equipped. I believe the Reach to have more and better cavalry so in a battle between the two Reach would win.

[Scipio Africanus]

Outnumbered by who knows how big odds, sure (remember the Ironborn pulled most of the defenders back when Vic left, what was left was a fairly small force).

Even when Big Vic was still there in large numbers the Ironborn were harrassed by the Crannogmen (the frustration about this was expressed by Vic) and effectively hindered the Ironborn from foraging. Even with Vic at the helm and with the Ironborn swarming in large numbers around Moat Cailin, they still could've gotten into trouble if they couldn't keep their supply lines open. More numbers = more mouths to feed.

Also, a superior army can be defeated by a local group of soldiers using guerilla tactics. Would you use the american defeat in Vietnam as argument that the vietnamese army is better then the U.S one, or as argument that the U.S military is not the strongest in the world ?

Even having a technological advantage over your enemy doesn't mean you always win. It depends on who's fighting who, what rescources are available, the nature of the conflict and what the objectives are.

And the Ironborn didn't even have a technological advantage over the Crannogmen.

The objective of the Ironborn at Moat Cailin was preventing Robb from returning North, and the secondairy objective controlling the surrounding area. While we may never know how things turned out, as both Balon and Robb died, I doubt both objectives would've been attained by the Ironborn.

But to come to your original point, Asha's men, while small in number, were trained warriors with some experience, fighting Mountain Clansmen of militia quality. The Ironborn in general fought mainly militia in the North, if they fought at all. And they didn't fair all that well at that.

Your statement that "Ironborn eat Northmen for breakfast" is based on questionably logic, for you don't know what would happen if say, the Ironborn under Big Vic faced off Robb's army of seasoned men-at-arms and cavalry for example. I suspect they would've simply lost, no matter how big and burly the Ironborn are...

[Fat Mac]

We're unsure of who has the best soldiers as a region, as it seems to vary.

Northmen and Ironborn have ferocity going for them, but I still wouldn't necessarily say that man on man they are superior to any other region.

The Marcher Lords have a martial tradition, and even just recently have produced quite a few notable warriors. Bryce Caron, who served on Renly's Rainbow Guard, Rolland Storm, Beric Dondarrion and Balon Swann. Add that to some other Stormlands greats like Robert Baratheon, Brienne and Barristan Selmy and the Stormlands seems like it produces some of the best warriors in the Realm.

But overall as an army I don't think one region vastly trumps the other in terms of skill of the average soldier.

[Anthony78]

I think it's more than a little simplistic to rate one army's soldiers as more or less "skilled" than another. Others have pointed out that some armies are better equiped, some more experienced, but "skill" is rather difficult to gauge.

What strikes me about the armies and battles of ASOIAF is that armies tend not to have inate tactical advantages over their enemies. Look at the Hundred Years War, the English with their almost mythical longbows were seen as unbeatable. What army in Westeros has such an advantage? Rather, all armies in Westeros seem to have a mix of forces - from well armed and armoured heavy cavalry (who would mostly be "professional" soldiers) to the peasants with an electic assortment of weapons.

That aside, if we look at the battles: Robb defeated Jaime because he split his forces, taking only his cavalry, thereby surprising an over-confident Jaime and allowing him to defeat in detail the Lannister encampments. Robb's later victory against the new Lannister host is an example of a newly formed, and likely very wary ("scared" may be unkind), army being surprised by an advancing army with its wind up before it was able to occupy strong defensive positions. The victories of the Ironborn are examples of strategic and tactical surprise. The Bastard Bolton's victory is one of subterfuge. Tywin's strategic withdrawal and counter-offensive against the enemy's flank at King's Landing is similar to Stannis's move north of the wall and advance on the Wildlings' flank.

None of the above victories come down to the skill of the soldiers so much as the strategic and tactical circumstances and the actions of the respective commanders (both negative and positive). What is more important for the rank and file soldiers in such an era of warfare is confidence and discipline. Far more soldiers died when they turned and ran than when they stood their ground. It's not so hard to hold a pike, but it takes something more than skill to stand your ground when the cavalry is charging down on you. :)

[diskoerekto]

Dothrakis are real? Well, i guess you learn something new everyday.

Their style is resembling/based on nomadic tribes of Central Asia that pushed into Europe (style a la Westerosi) for a good few hundred years. I was referring to that.

[Scipio Africanus]

We're unsure of who has the best soldiers as a region, as it seems to vary.

Because there isn't a region or race which is "better at war".

There are some region which can supply more and better and equiped soldiers for their war efforts, but that's it. Some peoples who are called to war are better adapted to certain conditions (the Mountain Clansmen in the snow, the Crannogmen in the swamps) but I wouldn't call them superior soldiers. There are few regions who truely specialize. In fact the only region in Westeros that fully specializes are the Ironborn, in naval combat. And even they aren't invincible, even at sea, as Stan B smashed the Ironborn fleet during Greyjoy's rebellion. And I suppose Dorne, or at least it is mentioned as such (we have yet to see them in combat), as spearmen.

The others pretty much follow the standard practices of medieval war found throughout medieval Europe.

Some regions are I) more populated and II) have more rescources to field more and better equiped men.

But even rich dudes like Tywin could only field a certain number of quality troops. The ones killed by Robb's forces at Oxcross were militia quality and were levies from Lannisport.

In short there are no super soldiers in Westeros.