What will be Olenna Redwyne's role in TWOW

[KingHodorTargaryen]

1. Maesters give wise counsel in wartime situations. Willas rode at tourney before his crippling. Books can teach you a great deal about warfare (see Tyrion). Willas is a prodigious reader. He only needs to make wise decisions. His captains, commanders, and master-at-arms will see it done.

2. Euron does not have numbers equal to Willas. The Reach has at least four or five times the numbers the ironborn do. At Highgarden alone he has 10,000 men plus a garrison, and his behind his own walls. The Redwyne fleet will shortly take care of the numbers at sea.

3. What are you talking about? He is not going to come up the Mander and sneak into Highgarden. This is just not going to happen.

1. Luwin was not useful in wartime, and I would assume more maestars go for other links besides the iron one, the one for warcraft. Willas was thrust too young into tourneys, so I would have to assume he was younger than Robb was during ACOK when he was crippled. As for books, it is a good way of learning from battles, however, Tyrion still got much of his military experience from picking off of Tywin's battles and quotes. Willas has no captains and commanders, or at least few that are noteworthy. Garlan would have taken the cream of the crop with him to fight Euron.

2. Euron has numbers equal to Willas himself, not Garlan. The Reach had far more numbers than Euron, but only half of it can fight him right now. Also, the 10,000 men is the garrison. The Redwyne Fleet is on it's way to Oldtown. While it is moving, it can receive no messages, and thus, have no idea what is going on until they land at port. Dorne is not likely to welcome them anywhere, so they have to land somewhere in the Reach. Euron has less numbers, and can easily outrun all of the Redwyne ships, unless some break off to give chase. The Mander would also be an ideal place to fight the fleet, because only a few ships can go abreast at a time, whereas in the open sea, the ironborn would be surrounded at all sides. If Euron is caught at the Mander, it would still be a better situation than being stuck at Oldtown.

[HodorForKing]

1. Luwin was not useful in wartime, and I would assume more maestars go for other links besides the iron one, the one for warcraft. Willas was thrust too young into tourneys, so I would have to assume he was younger than Robb was during ACOK when he was crippled. As for books, it is a good way of learning from battles, however, Tyrion still got much of his military experience from picking off of Tywin's battles and quotes. Willas has no captains and commanders, or at least few that are noteworthy. Garlan would have taken the cream of the crop with him to fight Euron.

2. Euron has numbers equal to Willas himself, not Garlan. The Reach had far more numbers than Euron, but only half of it can fight him right now. Also, the 10,000 men is the garrison. The Redwyne Fleet is on it's way to Oldtown. While it is moving, it can receive no messages, and thus, have no idea what is going on until they land at port. Dorne is not likely to welcome them anywhere, so they have to land somewhere in the Reach. Euron has less numbers, and can easily outrun all of the Redwyne ships, unless some break off to give chase. The Mander would also be an ideal place to fight the fleet, because only a few ships can go abreast at a time, whereas in the open sea, the ironborn would be surrounded at all sides. If Euron is caught at the Mander, it would still be a better situation than being stuck at Oldtown.

they have fought in the sea during their all life, even with less numbers, they have a great advantage beacause of their experience as sailors and navigators, while in the Mander, they would be surrounded: in one side by the Highgarden forces, and in the other my the Redwyne fleet; they we'll have nowhere to go untill Garlan gets there with his troops and finish them off, and remember that Olenna is there, she is one of the smartest persons in the reach, and their knowledge might include sufficient warfare tactics to hold Euron until Garlan's arrival; the only problem they might have is to communicate with the redwyne fleet, in this case, Euron could distract them with a few ships, keeping them out of port, and then go with his major troops up the Mander, impossibilitating the Tyrell's to contact them, and dificulting their situation even more

[KingHodorTargaryen]

they have fought in the sea during their all life, even with less numbers, they have a great advantage beacause of their experience as sailors and navigators, while in the Mander, they would be surrounded: in one side by the Highgarden forces, and in the other my the Redwyne fleet; they we'll have nowhere to go untill Garlan gets there with his troops and finish them off, and remember that Olenna is there, she is one of the smartest persons in the reach, and their knowledge might include sufficient warfare tactics to hold Euron until Garlan's arrival; the only problem they might have is to communicate with the redwyne fleet, in this case, Euron could distract them with a few ships, keeping them out of port, and then go with his major troops up the Mander, impossibilitating the Tyrell's to contact them, and dificulting their situation even more

The Redwyne fleet is the only thing that can attack them in the sea or on a river. Highgarden forces as well as Garlan's force will be absolutely no use unless on the fleet itself. In the sea, Euron would be surrounded, but on the Mander, the Redwynes would be forced to hold battle lines, and the size of their fleet would be useless. Also, if Euron fails to take Highgarden within a few days, he is smart enough o retreat back to Oldtown, or the Shield Islands.

[HodorForKing]

The Redwyne fleet is the only thing that can attack them in the sea or on a river. Highgarden forces as well as Garlan's force will be absolutely no use unless on the fleet itself. In the sea, Euron would be surrounded, but on the Mander, the Redwynes would be forced to hold battle lines, and the size of their fleet would be useless. Also, if Euron fails to take Highgarden within a few days, he is smart enough o retreat back to Oldtown, or the Shield Islands.

They can use catapults and other long-range weapons to attack then either in the sea or in a river, of course a fleet is way more useful, but some archers can do an average damage, but this depends on the size of the Mander, if he is large like Nile or Amazon it would be harder to aim the catapults and such weapons, but if he is, lets say, the size of thames, this weapons would be really effective...

If any of you now any description of the size of Mander from the books please post it, the one in the wiki only says it's large, but not how much

[HodorForKing]

If the Redwyne fleet battle lines are getting up the mouth of the Mander, there'll be no way Euron can get back to the Shield Islands, unless if he confronts them; even if he takes Highgarden, the Redwynes and Garlan would lay siege on them, and Willas and Olenna we'll have plenty of time to escape before the invasion, considering that they will be warned by the riverfolk; If he takes over Highgarden he'll have no way to keep it, or to get back to the Iron Islands by sea, his only option would be sacking the city, getting back to the ships and keep getting up the Mander to Ashford, Grassy Vale or Bitterbridge

[KingHodorTargaryen]

They can use catapults and other long-range weapons to attack then either in the sea or in a river, of course a fleet is way more useful, but some archers can do an average damage, but this depends on the size of the Mander, if he is large like Nile or Amazon it would be harder to aim the catapults and such weapons, but if he is, lets say, the size of thames, this weapons would be really effective...

If any of you now any description of the size of Mander from the books please post it

These weapons would require time and effort to build, and Garlan can't afford that time. Archers would do some damage, but Ironborn tend to wear heavy plate, or at least mail as they see no dishonor in drowning. The reason archers would be so effective is because people don't usually wear heavy protection so they don't drown. As for the size of the Mander, it would have to support Highgarden for water and fishing, so I would estimate around the size of the Blackwater. Euron does not have a bigger fleet, especially with the loss of the Iron Fleet.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. Luwin was not useful in wartime, and I would assume more maestars go for other links besides the iron one, the one for warcraft. Willas was thrust too young into tourneys, so I would have to assume he was younger than Robb was during ACOK when he was crippled. As for books, it is a good way of learning from battles, however, Tyrion still got much of his military experience from picking off of Tywin's battles and quotes. Willas has no captains and commanders, or at least few that are noteworthy. Garlan would have taken the cream of the crop with him to fight Euron.

2. Euron has numbers equal to Willas himself, not Garlan. The Reach had far more numbers than Euron, but only half of it can fight him right now. Also, the 10,000 men is the garrison. The Redwyne Fleet is on it's way to Oldtown. While it is moving, it can receive no messages, and thus, have no idea what is going on until they land at port. Dorne is not likely to welcome them anywhere, so they have to land somewhere in the Reach. Euron has less numbers, and can easily outrun all of the Redwyne ships, unless some break off to give chase. The Mander would also be an ideal place to fight the fleet, because only a few ships can go abreast at a time, whereas in the open sea, the ironborn would be surrounded at all sides. If Euron is caught at the Mander, it would still be a better situation than being stuck at Oldtown.

1. First you made a blanket statement that maesters do not engage in warfare. We know this is not true, as acknowledged by the black link in the chain. Secondly, you don't know what Luwin had on his chain. You continue to make unfounded assumptions. Willas was too young to be in the list according to the Viper, who was obviously more senior. We have no idea how old he was. he could have been 16. We just don't know. You also have no idea what captains or commanders Willas has at his disposal at Highgarden. Stop making unfounded assumptions please. Finally, Garlan did not take any forces from Highgarden. If anything, he is leading his third (20,000 men) of the original Tyrell host raised by Mace.

2. I'm going to try and make this clear. Willas has the 10,000 troops raised by Mace to defend Highgarden. He also has the Castle's regular garrison. If we go by Winterfell and the Dreadfort, this numbers at least 600 men. Garlan has the 20,000 men he brought back from to the Reach from King's Landing. The Hightowers have 20,000+ troops. The Redwyne's have 200 warships,1000 other vessels, and likely 12,000+ men. The ironmen cannot hope to defeat these numbers without dragons.

Realistically, Euron has no hope of taking Highgarden. There is no room for siege equipment on the longships and the ironmen don't have the heavy cavalry to beat the Reach forces on land. From ADWD we know that the Reach has watch towers and fortifications all along the coast. There is no way Euron can sail 400 longships up the Mander to get near Highgarden unseen. Willas will likely have fortifications and other defenses all along the river.

The Redwyne fleet is the only thing that can attack them in the sea or on a river. Highgarden forces as well as Garlan's force will be absolutely no use unless on the fleet itself. In the sea, Euron would be surrounded, but on the Mander, the Redwynes would be forced to hold battle lines, and the size of their fleet would be useless. Also, if Euron fails to take Highgarden within a few days, he is smart enough o retreat back to Oldtown, or the Shield Islands.

You have no idea how deep or wide the Mander is. The iron born would have to sail 400+ ships into the river and will have no means of escape. Euron is not this dumb. Any hopes of taking Highgarden unawares is a pipe dream.

[HodorForKing]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mander

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

These weapons would require time and effort to build, and Garlan can't afford that time. Archers would do some damage, but Ironborn tend to wear heavy plate, or at least mail as they see no dishonor in drowning. The reason archers would be so effective is because people don't usually wear heavy protection so they don't drown. As for the size of the Mander, it would have to support Highgarden for water and fishing, so I would estimate around the size of the Blackwater. Euron does not have a bigger fleet, especially with the loss of the Iron Fleet.

The Reach has been on guard against the ironmen for centuries. The river defenses have likely been in place for the longest of time. Once the Shields were taken, Willas has taken all kinds of steps to secure the Reach.

[HodorForKing]

These weapons would require time and effort to build, and Garlan can't afford that time. Archers would do some damage, but Ironborn tend to wear heavy plate, or at least mail as they see no dishonor in drowning. The reason archers would be so effective is because people don't usually wear heavy protection so they don't drown. As for the size of the Mander, it would have to support Highgarden for water and fishing, so I would estimate around the size of the Blackwater. Euron does not have a bigger fleet, especially with the loss of the Iron Fleet.

But he might have some weapons like this already, considering he was going to retake Brightwater, and there might be some in Highgarden walls aswell (thx for aswnering all the questions)

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

http://awoiaf.wester...ndex.php/Mander

Historically, its likely that the ironmen have just bypassed Highgarden and probed the river for easy pickings.

[HodorForKing]

Euron could intercept th redwyne fleet in their way back with his major power; in a surprise attack like that he could defeat them, considering that, while ate sea, they cannot call any reinforcements; if he could defeat them without damaging all their ships, he could use them to get to highgarden unnoticed, getting inside the walls, and sacking the town, making willas and olenna captives and ensuring that the Tyrells would not attack him; I know it sounds a little bit crazy, but it worked with the trojans

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Euron could intercept th redwyne fleet in their way back with his major power; in a surprise attack like that he could defeat them, considering that, while ate sea, they cannot call any reinforcements; if he could defeat them without damaging all their ships, he could use them to get to highgarden unnoticed, getting inside the walls, and sacking the town, making willas and olenna captives and ensuring that the Tyrells would not attack him; I know it sounds a little bit crazy, but it worked with the trojans

The Redwyne Fleet is made up of 200 war galleys. They also have 1000 support ships to carry supplies and ferry troops. The ironborn have 400 smaller longships for the most part. Euron is a great tactician, but I would put my money on Paxter Redwyne in open battle. As for an ambush, its hard to pinpoint where that would take place. The Redwyne fleet is likely heading toward Oldtown to meet up with the combined forces of Garlan and the Hightowers, and then on to the Shields.

Euron would have to trap them around the shields. Attacking them near or around Oldtown seems like a bad plan. His best bet would have been to keep the Iron Fleet in Westeros and attack the Redwyne fleet in full force. With the Redwyne fleet destroyed, he could have moved on the Arbor and the Shields. No way he could take the mainland, but the Reach would have been all but powerless to free the Shields and the Arbor. From there, Euron could have blockaded Oldtown and shut down commerce. The realm would collapse economically and King's Landing would have no choice but to meet Euron's demands.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

1. First you made a blanket statement that maesters do not engage in warfare. We know this is not true, as acknowledged by the black link in the chain. Secondly, you don't know what Luwin had on his chain. You continue to make unfounded assumptions. Willas was too young to be in the list according to the Viper, who was obviously more senior. We have no idea how old he was. he could have been 16. We just don't know. You also have no idea what captains or commanders Willas has at his disposal at Highgarden. Stop making unfounded assumptions please. Finally, Garlan did not take any forces from Highgarden. If anything, he is leading his third (20,000 men) of the original Tyrell host raised by Mace.

2. I'm going to try and make this clear. Willas has the 10,000 troops raised by Mace to defend Highgarden. He also has the Castle's regular garrison. If we go by Winterfell and the Dreadfort, this numbers at least 600 men. Garlan has the 20,000 men he brought back from to the Reach from King's Landing. The Hightowers have 20,000+ troops. The Redwyne's have 200 warships,1000 other vessels, and likely 12,000+ men. The ironmen cannot hope to defeat these numbers without dragons.

Realistically, Euron has no hope of taking Highgarden. There is no room for siege equipment on the longships and the ironmen don't have the heavy cavalry to beat the Reach forces on land. From ADWD we know that the Reach has watch towers and fortifications all along the coast. There is no way Euron can sail 400 longships up the Mander to get near Highgarden unseen. Willas will likely have fortifications and other defenses all along the river.

You have no idea how deep or wide the Mander is. The iron born would have to sail 400+ ships into the river and will have no means of escape. Euron is not this dumb. Any hopes of taking Highgarden unawares is a pipe dream.

1. I actually made a statement saying more men wanting of knowledge would likely not go for the iron link, which is the one for warcraft. If they had wanted to become battle tacticians, they would be better joining someone's force. I also was using Catelyn's statement for Luwin. "I sent Ser Rodrik back to Winterfell to assist Maestar Luwin. He is a good man, but woefully unknowledgable in the ways of war." AGOT. For a maestar to the Lord Paramount of the North to be unknowledgable to war suggests that very few maestars actually pursue the iron link.

2. Renly states that Mace had 10,000 troops at Highgarden. If there was an extra portion to the garrison, why not embellish a little and say 11,000? The 600 would be part of the 10,000. Also, these points fall into favor of Euron going to Highgarden. All these stats are correct. Why would Euron attack a place with 20,000 troops already there as well as with an approaching host of another 20,000? 10,000 men seems like a better number to fight than 40,000.

3. With a strong current and favorable winds, there is no chance that Willas would have word of an attack until ti actually gets near Highgarden. Also, there would be so much panic when it gets there, especially with many people trying to get into the city for protection. Euron does not have to sail all his longships, just store some at the Shields or leave some at Oldtown, and pack as many fighters into the ones he does take. He can maintain the pretense of attacking Oldtown and go swiftly through the Mander. Also, correct me if I am wrong on this, but wasn't the Redwyne Fleet tasked with regaining the Shields in AFFC? I don't recall them hearing of Euron going to attack Oldtown.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. I actually made a statement saying more men wanting of knowledge would likely not go for the iron link, which is the one for warcraft. If they had wanted to become battle tacticians, they would be better joining someone's force. I also was using Catelyn's statement for Luwin. "I sent Ser Rodrik back to Winterfell to assist Maestar Luwin. He is a good man, but woefully unknowledgable in the ways of war." AGOT. For a maestar to the Lord Paramount of the North to be unknowledgable to war suggests that very few maestars actually pursue the iron link.

2. Renly states that Mace had 10,000 troops at Highgarden. If there was an extra portion to the garrison, why not embellish a little and say 11,000? The 600 would be part of the 10,000. Also, these points fall into favor of Euron going to Highgarden. All these stats are correct. Why would Euron attack a place with 20,000 troops already there as well as with an approaching host of another 20,000? 10,000 men seems like a better number to fight than 40,000.

3. With a strong current and favorable winds, there is no chance that Willas would have word of an attack until ti actually gets near Highgarden. Also, there would be so much panic when it gets there, especially with many people trying to get into the city for protection. Euron does not have to sail all his longships, just store some at the Shields or leave some at Oldtown, and pack as many fighters into the ones he does take. He can maintain the pretense of attacking Oldtown and go swiftly through the Mander. Also, correct me if I am wrong on this, but wasn't the Redwyne Fleet tasked with regaining the Shields in AFFC? I don't recall them hearing of Euron going to attack Oldtown.

1. You previously made a blanket statement that maesters did not engage in warfare. You corrected yourself. Move on.

2. Once again, this reasoning make no sense. Mace Tyrell does not keep a standing garrison of 10,000 men. No lord of Westeros keeps that. Think of the expense. These were men who are likely sworn directly to Highgarden and raised to possibly support Renly in the war if need be. Think about it. Renly already had 80,000 men (20,000 horse). The 10,000 were a reserve to guard Highgarden primarily, and then support Renly secondarily. This is separate of the garrison. Why would a lord muster his castle garrison as well?

3. I'm through addressing this point. It simply makes no sense. Euron cannot sail up the Mander unseen first of all. Regular longships have no room for siege equipment. He would be outnumbered, trapped on the Mander, and helpless against shore attacks.

[Steve Moss II]

Euron is trying to sow chaos. The Iron Isles cannot be independent if the balance of the Seven Kingdoms are united. Weakening Highgarden so the Tyrells are less effective allies, is in his interests.

Take what he can take, burn what he can't carry away and avoid being pinned down. If he does that, the North will be able to resist and Aegon will tear the balance apart. Civil war and chaos. Good for the Iron Isles and good for the Others.

If Victarion comea back with Dragons, how does that help Euron? Euron sent Victarion to die.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

1. You previously made a blanket statement that maesters did not engage in warfare. You corrected yourself. Move on.

2. Once again, this reasoning make no sense. Mace Tyrell does not keep a standing garrison of 10,000 men. No lord of Westeros keeps that. Think of the expense. These were men who are likely sworn directly to Highgarden and raised to possibly support Renly in the war if need be. Think about it. Renly already had 80,000 men (20,000 horse). The 10,000 were a reserve to guard Highgarden primarily, and then support Renly secondarily. This is separate of the garrison. Why would a lord muster his castle garrison as well?

3. I'm through addressing this point. It simply makes no sense. Euron cannot sail up the Mander unseen first of all. Regular longships have no room for siege equipment. He would be outnumbered, trapped on the Mander, and helpless against shore attacks.

1. Ok

2. 10,000 men is a ridiculous number for a garrison, especially in peacetime. When the lords raised their hosts, some of that host was the 10,000 or so men sent to Highgarden. Also, would it not make sense for Mace to take some of them to go to Kings Landing, or for Willas to dismiss some?

3. Unseen, no. However, he can come very close to Highgarden without any word reaching Willas. There are no castles near the Mander except for Highgarden. No ravens can go to Highgarden as word would take too long to reach the castles. Also, Euron isn't going to siege Highgarden. It's foolish to believe he would. He is going to take that similarily to how Theon took Winterfell. He may also be trapped on the Mander, but unless the Redwyne Fleet arrives the same time Garlan's force arrives, and Garlan's force does not cross the river, he would only have to face the Redwyne Fleet at most. Even then, it would be ideal situations for him because the Mander forces battle lines and not open battle, and thus, Euron can make the most use of his better trained men.

[HodorForKing]

Euron is trying to sow chaos. The Iron Isles cannot be independent if the balance of the Seven Kingdoms are united. Weakening Highgarden so the Tyrells are less effective allies, is in his interests.

Take what he can take, burn what he can't carry away and avoid being pinned down. If he does that, the North will be able to resist and Aegon will tear the balance apart. Civil war and chaos. Good for the Iron Isles and good for the Others.

If Victarion comea back with Dragons, how does that help Euron? Euron sent Victarion to die.

Euron may not like his brother, but he's not idiot, he would never send the iron fleet to the other side of the world just to see his brother dying. With the iron fleet an attack to Oldtown or the Arbor would be possible for Euron, without it he can't face the Redwyne fleet neither in the open sea nor in the Mander in normal circumstances.

[HodorForKing]

The Redwyne Fleet is made up of 200 war galleys. They also have 1000 support ships to carry supplies and ferry troops. The ironborn have 400 smaller longships for the most part. Euron is a great tactician, but I would put my money on Paxter Redwyne in open battle. As for an ambush, its hard to pinpoint where that would take place. The Redwyne fleet is likely heading toward Oldtown to meet up with the combined forces of Garlan and the Hightowers, and then on to the Shields.

Euron would have to trap them around the shields. Attacking them near or around Oldtown seems like a bad plan. His best bet would have been to keep the Iron Fleet in Westeros and attack the Redwyne fleet in full force. With the Redwyne fleet destroyed, he could have moved on the Arbor and the Shields. No way he could take the mainland, but the Reach would have been all but powerless to free the Shields and the Arbor. From there, Euron could have blockaded Oldtown and shut down commerce. The realm would collapse economically and King's Landing would have no choice but to meet Euron's demands.

And what if he simulate an attack to Highgarden with half his sea power, and then, when the Redwynes arrive, he trapps them between his two forces. his numbers would still be lower then Paxter's, but attacking then from both sides could make him win this battle, and he doesn't even have to get too close to Highgarden. With that, Garlan would head to Highgarden, and the Tyrell forces would wait inside the walls, thinking that Euron is getting close, while actually, he's way back, destroying the Redwynes fleet. Considering that the Redwyne's ships would need to stay in battle lines, making it easier for Euron to fight them, plus the fact that he's attacking them from both sides, a victory would be more then possible...

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Euron may not like his brother, but he's not idiot, he would never send the iron fleet to the other side of the world just to see his brother dying. With the iron fleet an attack to Oldtown or the Arbor would be possible for Euron, without it he can't face the Redwyne fleet neither in the open sea nor in the Mander in normal circumstances.

This is good, I agree totally.