What will be Olenna Redwyne's role in TWOW

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Wouldn't making wildfire require the support of the Alchemist Guild from KL? Unless, of course, Euron found a recipe in the ruins of Valyria, which I think is unlikely. A horn surviving is a much different thing than a piece of parchment or recipe book. Valyria burned and it still is as far as we know.

Well, don't think of it as wildfire exactly. I was referring more to the tactic used by Tyrion than anything else. Euron does not have Guild Alchemist, but he has plenty of warlocks. Its not out of the realm of possibility that they could cook up something special for Euron to use against the Redwyne Fleet.

[Aegor Blackfyre]

Well, don't think of it as wildfire exactly. I was referring more to the tactic used by Tyrion than anything else. Euron does not have Guild Alchemist, but he has plenty of warlocks. Its not out of the realm of possibility that they could cook up something special for Euron to use against the Redwyne Fleet.

I agree with this, though I'd imagine Lord Redwyne to be pretty cunning as well, seeing that he has the most powerful fleet in Westeros and he has proven that he knows how to use it. And considering the fact that Redwyne was on the Lannister-Tyrell side in the Battle of the Blackwater I would expect him to see through many tricks/ploys, however we can never really know until we read the book. And Euron certainly does have a few Valyrian secrets hidden somewhere in that devious mind of his besides the dragonbinder. For some reason I can't help but think that this whole *bind the dragons* plan is going to fail miserably with Victarion dead.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

1. Once again you are speculating. We have no textual evidence of the specifications of Highgarden Castle (its keep, walls, defenses, etc). Until then, we don't know how easily or difficult it is to defend.

2. Not likely. These men are paid and fed by the Tyrells. They are sworn to Highgarden, not Storm's End.

3. The Tyrell are winning and in full control, why would they have mass desertions? They are well funded and well fed. Just not likely.

There is no evidence that Euron is feinting anything. If he had the Iron Fleet I may agree that this is possible. But his best fighters and ships are away. Attacking Highgarden is simply a death trap. Little chance of success, maximum chance of being pent up on the Mander and smashed by the Redwyne fleet. The targets are what the targets appear to be: the Arbor and Oldtown.

Manpower is not everything. The Iron Fleet consists many of the best ships and sailors, not necessarily the best warriors. With four men, Theon opened a post gate for the rest of the force. Euron certainly has cunning, far more than Theon. He also has the means to take Highgarden. I estimate their garrison to be about 5K to 10K. Remember, these are not fighters, simply green boys. In a culture like the Ironborn's I would expect 90% of Euron force to be better than average. Euron, if he takes his entire force, should have around 10K. So in a normal siege, Euron would not win. However, if a force manages to open a gate, say after posing as a pleasure barge, then Highgarden will easily fall. Euron knows his cunning is the only thing working for him, so why would he do what the enemy expects him to? Why is Oldtown such an important target? He knows the Hightowers are powerful, he would know Garlan or at least someone would rush to defend it. He also knows that the Mander would provide easy access to an easy yet powerful target. What he doesn't know however, is that the Redwyne fleet would be coming back. He thinks they are still at Dragonstone, and would likely not know of it's "fall" especially if out at sea. Also, the same is true for the Redwyne fleet. They would need to go to port or Oldtown itself to hear of Euron's attack on Highgarden, and by then, it would be too late. Euron gains little by taking Oldtown, loses much. Also, when Garlan hears of an attack on Highgarden, he would have to cross the Mander again to reach it. Wouldn't that be the ideal time for the fleet to mass kill them, especially when they are practically defenseless? It is a cunning plan, and the worst thing Euron can do right now is play into what his enemy expects.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

She will poison Euron.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Manpower is not everything. The Iron Fleet consists many of the best ships and sailors, not necessarily the best warriors. With four men, Theon opened a post gate for the rest of the force. Euron certainly has cunning, far more than Theon. He also has the means to take Highgarden. I estimate their garrison to be about 5K to 10K. Remember, these are not fighters, simply green boys. In a culture like the Ironborn's I would expect 90% of Euron force to be better than average. Euron, if he takes his entire force, should have around 10K. So in a normal siege, Euron would not win. However, if a force manages to open a gate, say after posing as a pleasure barge, then Highgarden will easily fall. Euron knows his cunning is the only thing working for him, so why would he do what the enemy expects him to? Why is Oldtown such an important target? He knows the Hightowers are powerful, he would know Garlan or at least someone would rush to defend it. He also knows that the Mander would provide easy access to an easy yet powerful target. What he doesn't know however, is that the Redwyne fleet would be coming back. He thinks they are still at Dragonstone, and would likely not know of it's "fall" especially if out at sea. Also, the same is true for the Redwyne fleet. They would need to go to port or Oldtown itself to hear of Euron's attack on Highgarden, and by then, it would be too late. Euron gains little by taking Oldtown, loses much. Also, when Garlan hears of an attack on Highgarden, he would have to cross the Mander again to reach it. Wouldn't that be the ideal time for the fleet to mass kill them, especially when they are practically defenseless? It is a cunning plan, and the worst thing Euron can do right now is play into what his enemy expects.

You're not being realistic. Everyone in Westeros will take a lesson from Winterfell. Euron is not about to sneak up the Mander unseen and get a group of men to scale the walls of Highgarden, kills hundreds and thousands of troops, and open a gate.

Ned Stark said one man upon a wall is worth ten below it. I trust Ned Stark.

[HodorForKing]

You're not being realistic. Everyone in Westeros will take a lesson from Westeros. Euron is not about to sneak up the Mander unseen and get a group of men to scale the walls of Highgarden, kills hundreds and thousands of troops, and open a gate.

Ned Stark said one man upon a wall is worth ten below it. I trust Ned Stark.

And we'll know how this one ended up... (just kidding, I agree with you)

[HodorForKing]

1. You are right in that the Hightowers command one of the greatest ports and one of the greatest cities in all of Westeros. However, you are wrong in that they do not command a large fleet of their own. They have galleys, but only for self defense of Oldtown. The ironmen have 500+ ships in their fleet. Only the Redwyne fleet can match that at sea.

2. Highgarden has not yet been revealed as a target for Euron. That is only speculation from this thread and a few others. Honestly, without the ships and men of the iron fleet, such an attack really makes no sense. Euron would have to send his entire remaining force to have any chance at all. Additionally, Mace Tyrell mustered a force of 10,000 to hold Highgarden. This force combined with the regular garrison would easily defeat the ironmen.

3. Euron is much to smart for a reckless attack on Highgarden. He knows he does not have the man power. His best bet is to do what he has been doing. Attacking the surrounding areas of the Reach. The Shields, the Arbor, and Oldtown are excellent strategic targets on their own. Take the Arbor and Oldtown and the realm will collapse economically.

Ultimately, Euron's success depends on two factors. Getting Dany and her dragons, and defeating the Redwyne fleet. Accomplish either or both of these objectives and he is in great shape.

then, the smartest think Crow's eye could do, is attacking Oldtown, they have lack of a good fleet, and Willas will not risk himself sending his forces to aid the Hightowers, plus they're going to have the advantage because of their good sea warfare tactics, number of warships, and experienced warriors

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

then, the smartest think Crow's eye could do, is attacking Oldtown, they have lack of a good fleet, and Willas will not risk himself sending his forces to aid the Hightowers, plus they're going to have the advantage because of their good sea warfare tactics, number of warships, and experienced warriors

Not so fast. The Hightowers are by far the most powerful non-paramount house in the Seven Kingdoms. They are as wealthy as the Lannisters and can muster at least 3 times the number of troops as any of the other Reach houses. If you count the Oldtown garrison and they recruit directly from the city itself, they can likely reach anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 men.

Euron can never take and hold Oldtown, but he could raid, burn, and cripple it. That alone would be enough to put its great harbors out of commission and collapse the realm.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

You're not being realistic. Everyone in Westeros will take a lesson from Winterfell. Euron is not about to sneak up the Mander unseen and get a group of men to scale the walls of Highgarden, kills hundreds and thousands of troops, and open a gate.

Ned Stark said one man upon a wall is worth ten below it. I trust Ned Stark.

First, it was Tywin Lannister that said that. Second, he is referring to open siege, such as what Stannis did in ACOK. Third, Willas might take a lesson from it, but what can he do? The simple truth is he is a green boy. He does not know war. Olenna can't help him in that regard. There is no one at Highgarden as experienced and war savy to even come close to matching Euron. None of the fighters can match even the worst Ironborn. If it comes to a fight, the worst odds Euron can face is 3 to 1. With better close combat skills, better warriors, more war experience, it is actually extremely likely Euron can take Highgarden provided he does not mount a normal siege. Also, Euron can still take Oldtown as well as Highgarden. If Garlan hears Highgarden has fallen, he would take all of his strength as well as some of Oldtown's to hurry back. They would have to cross the river to get back. Then the Ironborn can slaughter them. After that, Oldtown would be at a large disadvantage and will have lost a large portion of strength. It also leads into one of my theories that Aegon goes to Oldtown to save it, and thus helping a lot of the Faith and give the "Aegon the Conqueror" impression.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

First, it was Tywin Lannister that said that. Second, he is referring to open siege, such as what Stannis did in ACOK. Third, Willas might take a lesson from it, but what can he do? The simple truth is he is a green boy. He does not know war. Olenna can't help him in that regard. There is no one at Highgarden as experienced and war savy to even come close to matching Euron. None of the fighters can match even the worst Ironborn. If it comes to a fight, the worst odds Euron can face is 3 to 1. With better close combat skills, better warriors, more war experience, it is actually extremely likely Euron can take Highgarden provided he does not mount a normal siege. Also, Euron can still take Oldtown as well as Highgarden. If Garlan hears Highgarden has fallen, he would take all of his strength as well as some of Oldtown's to hurry back. They would have to cross the river to get back. Then the Ironborn can slaughter them. After that, Oldtown would be at a large disadvantage and will have lost a large portion of strength. It also leads into one of my theories that Aegon goes to Oldtown to save it, and thus helping a lot of the Faith and give the "Aegon the Conqueror" impression.

I misplaced my wording and my quote. The proper quote came from Jon, who was taught by Ned.

From ADWD Jon p.226 (US Hardback): "Fifty men inside a castle are worth five hundred outside." I trust Jon.

I don't know where you got that from Tywin Lannister, I think you made it up. Anyway, I'll leave it there.

[HodorForKing]

I misplaced my wording and my quote. The proper quote came from Jon, who was taught by Ned.

From ADWD Jon p.226 (US Hardback): "Fifty men inside a castle are worth five hundred outside." I trust Jon.

I don't know where you got that from Tywin Lannister, I think you made it up. Anyway, I'll leave it there.

In the HBO series its Tywin that says that

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I misplaced my wording and my quote. The proper quote came from Jon, who was taught by Ned.

From ADWD Jon p.226 (US Hardback): "Fifty men inside a castle are worth five hundred outside." I trust Jon.

I don't know where you got that from Tywin Lannister, I think you made it up. Anyway, I'll leave it there.

Tyrion chapter right before Stannis attacks the city "A watchman is not truly a warrior Tywin Lannister was fond of saying. Now it was time to test another of Tywin's quotes "A man on the wall is worth ten on the outside."

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Tyrion chapter right before Stannis attacks the city "A watchman is not truly a warrior Tywin Lannister was fond of saying. Now it was time to test another of Tywin's quotes "A man on the wall is worth ten on the outside."

I'm too tired to look for it, so I will tentatively take your word for it. Lets say we have two quotes from two great warriors. The concept is still the same. The more men inside a castle, the better off you are.

1. You don't know how green Willas is and what he knows. Olenna finds his highly competent and worthy heir to Mace, even though he is crippled. This is telling.

2. You have high regard for Euron. He is a clever strategist, I'll give you that. However, battlefield brilliance is useless in the face of overwhelming numbers and fighting from an unfavorable position. The ironborn are coastal raiders and warriors, not a siege force.

3. Once again, you know nothing of the capabilities of the Highgarden defenders.

For the final time, the ironmen lack the numbers to hold Oldtown, the most they can do is raid it, burn it, and cripple it. As for Highgarden, a force of 10,000 men and a garrison of 600+ cannot be easily taken. You are making huge unfounded assumptions.

[Death by Cupcakes]

Euron is cunning and intelligent and has a plan. So he knows he cannot hold onto the Reach in the long run. That means there must something that guarantees his (eventual) victory.

And I think this key to victory lies in Oldtown with the maesters rather than in Highgarden (and has likely something to do with dragons and magic).

Probably the same thing that is of interest for a certain Facless Man....

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I'm too tired to look for it, so I will tentatively take your word for it. Lets say we have two quotes from two great warriors. The concept is still the same. The more men inside a castle, the better off you are.

1. You don't know how green Willas is and what he knows. Olenna finds his highly competent and worthy heir to Mace, even though he is crippled. This is telling.

2. You have high regard for Euron. He is a clever strategist, I'll give you that. However, battlefield brilliance is useless in the face of overwhelming numbers and fighting from an unfavorable position. The ironborn are coastal raiders and warriors, not a siege force.

3. Once again, you know nothing of the capabilities of the Highgarden defenders.

For the final time, the ironmen lack the numbers to hold Oldtown, the most they can do is raid it, burn it, and cripple it. As for Highgarden, a force of 10,000 men and a garrison of 600+ cannot be easily taken. You are making huge unfounded assumptions.

1. Olenna is highly competent in politics only. She is much like Littlefinger. Willas would either be taught warfare from Mace or Olenna, so it would more likely be Mace. We all know how good at warfare he is. Olenna knows the strengths and weaknesses of each of her grandchildren. She knows Garlan has the strongest battle capabilities, hence why he was sent to fight Euron and not Willas.

2. I see Euron much like Littlefinger, a bad person, but respectable nonetheless. He already proved he has cunning through completely burning the Lannister fleet while it was docked and taking the Shields, and he has a good degree of skill politically.

3. I am assuming the garrison is like every other garrison in times of war: made up of green boys and old men with little to no training or skills whose only uses would be pushing down ladders and flinging oil. Every garrison we have seen in detail with an army in the field shows that the garrison is poor in every aspect except numbers. Examples include Riverrun during the Battle of the Fords, Winterfell during the War of 5 Kings, Storm's End during the War of 5 Kings, Kings Landing for much of ACOK, the Twins before their betrayal and after they sent their force up north, Astapor after Dany marched, Volantis after they declared war on Dany, every northern castle with the exception of White Harbor during the War of 5 Kings, Castle Black after the ranging, Brightwater Keep after the Florents went to Dragonstone with Stannis, and Dragonstone itself when Stannis sailed north. Thus, I assume the Highgarden garrison to be made up of an equal skill of people, though have more. Euron has an equal number of men to the garrison of Highgarden, or at least close enough to compare. Thus, it is entirely possible to take Highgarden, but never hold it. If you want, we can agree to disagree, but this is my two cents.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Euron is cunning and intelligent and has a plan. So he knows he cannot hold onto the Reach in the long run. That means there must something that guarantees his (eventual) victory.

And I think this key to victory lies in Oldtown with the maesters rather than in Highgarden (and has likely something to do with dragons and magic).

Probably the same thing that is of interest for a certain Facless Man....

Euron knows he needs dragons for his ultimate victory, there is no other way. However, he needs to buy time until his plans at Slaver's Bay come to fruition. He also must keep the ironmen on his side with victories. Either sacking the Arbor, sacking Oldtown, and/or defeating the Redwyne Fleet accomplishes his objectives.

1. Olenna is highly competent in politics only. She is much like Littlefinger. Willas would either be taught warfare from Mace or Olenna, so it would more likely be Mace. We all know how good at warfare he is. Olenna knows the strengths and weaknesses of each of her grandchildren. She knows Garlan has the strongest battle capabilities, hence why he was sent to fight Euron and not Willas.

2. I see Euron much like Littlefinger, a bad person, but respectable nonetheless. He already proved he has cunning through completely burning the Lannister fleet while it was docked and taking the Shields, and he has a good degree of skill politically.

3. I am assuming the garrison is like every other garrison in times of war: made up of green boys and old men with little to no training or skills whose only uses would be pushing down ladders and flinging oil. Every garrison we have seen in detail with an army in the field shows that the garrison is poor in every aspect except numbers. Examples include Riverrun during the Battle of the Fords, Winterfell during the War of 5 Kings, Storm's End during the War of 5 Kings, Kings Landing for much of ACOK, the Twins before their betrayal and after they sent their force up north, Astapor after Dany marched, Volantis after they declared war on Dany, every northern castle with the exception of White Harbor during the War of 5 Kings, Castle Black after the ranging, Brightwater Keep after the Florents went to Dragonstone with Stannis, and Dragonstone itself when Stannis sailed north. Thus, I assume the Highgarden garrison to be made up of an equal skill of people, though have more. Euron has an equal number of men to the garrison of Highgarden, or at least close enough to compare. Thus, it is entirely possible to take Highgarden, but never hold it. If you want, we can agree to disagree, but this is my two cents.

1. The Queen of Thornes is astute enough to judge military capability. Willas has been taught the ways of war by his castle maester and man at arms. In case you don't remember, Willas was crippled by the Red Viper in a joust. He is a battle commander, not a warrior.

2. Its fine to be cunning, but numbers and resources count for a great deal.

3. You are simply wrong on this. Roose Bolton left a seasoned and capable force at the Dreadfort while he took joined his main host to Robb's. Winterfell's garrison was not poor or green. They were taken by surprise due to Ramsay's treachery. The Storm's End garrison was commanded by Ser Cortnay Penrose (seasoned). The only way it fell was by sorcery and again by guile. Dragonstone was held by the Bastard of Nightsong, a seasoned killer. The castle did fall, but only after the sieging force lost many lives. A garrison is as strong as its commander. A good commander can formulate the right strategies and put the men into their proper places.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Euron knows he needs dragons for his ultimate victory, there is no other way. However, he needs to buy time until his plans at Slaver's Bay come to fruition. He also must keep the ironmen on his side with victories. Either sacking the Arbor, sacking Oldtown, and/or defeating the Redwyne Fleet accomplishes his objectives.

1. The Queen of Thornes is astute enough to judge military capability. Willas has been taught the ways of war by his castle maester and man at arms. In case you don't remember, Willas was crippled by the Red Viper in a joust. He is a battle commander, not a warrior.

2. Its fine to be cunning, but numbers and resources count for a great deal.

3. You are simply wrong on this. Roose Bolton left a seasoned and capable force at the Dreadfort while he took joined his main host to Robb's. Winterfell's garrison was not poor or green. They were taken by surprise due to Ramsay's treachery. The Storm's End garrison was commanded by Ser Cortnay Penrose (seasoned). The only way it fell was by sorcery and again by guile. Dragonstone was held by the Bastard of Nightsong, a seasoned killer. The castle did fall, but only after the sieging force lost many lives. A garrison is as strong as its commander. A good commander can formulate the right strategies and put the men into their proper places.

1. His crippling is exactly the reason Willas is a green boy. Maestars do not know war techniques, and why would the master at arms spent much time with a boy who is crippled when he has 2 capable brothers.

2. Yes. Euron has equal numbers to Willas, and a lot more sea faring resources.

3. In this, I was stating the quality of the garrisons, not the commanders. Highgarden's commander would be Willas, who I have stated is a green boy. Throughout the battles in ASOIAF, cunning has won far more than brute force. Euron would have to use brute force to get into Oldtown, unless he concocts a plan, which would have less success due to the attention on the town. Through cunning, Euron could take Highgarden because he would have more room to experiment and more success. Even if Euron failed to take it, Garlan would still undoubtedly rush back, and would have to cross the river, with the ironborn waiting for them.

[HodorForKing]

1. His crippling is exactly the reason Willas is a green boy. Maestars do not know war techniques, and why would the master at arms spent much time with a boy who is crippled when he has 2 capable brothers.

2. Yes. Euron has equal numbers to Willas, and a lot more sea faring resources.

3. In this, I was stating the quality of the garrisons, not the commanders. Highgarden's commander would be Willas, who I have stated is a green boy. Throughout the battles in ASOIAF, cunning has won far more than brute force. Euron would have to use brute force to get into Oldtown, unless he concocts a plan, which would have less success due to the attention on the town. Through cunning, Euron could take Highgarden because he would have more room to experiment and more success. Even if Euron failed to take it, Garlan would still undoubtedly rush back, and would have to cross the river, with the ironborn waiting for them.

You need to remember that Willas was only crippled in average age, he had a lot of time before it to train war techniques, and, even with most of their soldiers in brithgwater and KL, there is a considerable number of soldiers in Highgarden, and as Tywin, or Jon, or Eddard, or whoever said, one men upon a wall is worth ten below it, even if these men are ironborns, it would be a really bad move for Euron to attack Highgarden right now, he's too smart for that...

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. His crippling is exactly the reason Willas is a green boy. Maestars do not know war techniques, and why would the master at arms spent much time with a boy who is crippled when he has 2 capable brothers.

2. Yes. Euron has equal numbers to Willas, and a lot more sea faring resources.

3. In this, I was stating the quality of the garrisons, not the commanders. Highgarden's commander would be Willas, who I have stated is a green boy. Throughout the battles in ASOIAF, cunning has won far more than brute force. Euron would have to use brute force to get into Oldtown, unless he concocts a plan, which would have less success due to the attention on the town. Through cunning, Euron could take Highgarden because he would have more room to experiment and more success. Even if Euron failed to take it, Garlan would still undoubtedly rush back, and would have to cross the river, with the ironborn waiting for them.

1. Maesters give wise counsel in wartime situations. Willas rode at tourney before his crippling. Books can teach you a great deal about warfare (see Tyrion). Willas is a prodigious reader. He only needs to make wise decisions. His captains, commanders, and master-at-arms will see it done.

2. Euron does not have numbers equal to Willas. The Reach has at least four or five times the numbers the ironborn do. At Highgarden alone he has 10,000 men plus a garrison, and his behind his own walls. The Redwyne fleet will shortly take care of the numbers at sea.

3. What are you talking about? He is not going to come up the Mander and sneak into Highgarden. This is just not going to happen.

[HodorForKing]

1. Maesters give wise counsel in wartime situations. Willas rode at tourney before his crippling. Books can teach you a great deal about warfare (see Tyrion). Willas is a prodigious reader. He only needs to make wise decisions. His captains, commanders, and master-at-arms will see it done.

2. Euron does not have numbers equal to Willas. The Reach has at least four or five times the numbers the ironborn do. At Highgarden alone he has 10,000 men plus a garrison, and his behind his own walls. The Redwyne fleet will shortly take care of the numbers at sea.

3. What are you talking about? He is not going to come up the Mander and sneak into Highgarden. This is just not going to happen.

Or atleast not yet, in a GRRM book everything can happen, and things might change pretty quickly in TWOW