Panos Targaryen Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 Tyrion trying to cripple a certain bard. Talk about disproportionate repercussions.Tyrion intending to have the Vale reduced to ruins and ashes.Tyrion not showing any compassion about Masha Heddle...That's just from the very first book. Tyrion isn't Ramsay, but he is in no way good or compassionate.I don't remember him wanting to cripple Marilion, can you remind me?I doubt he literately meant what he said to the tribesmen, I think he was just telling them what they wanted to hear to get them on his side. He never made any attempts to "give them the Vale" beyond empty promises.I agree about the innkeeper, such a horrible scene. But then again, Tyrion has been desensitized to death and violence. And this was after he was kept in a sky cell for a long time, so maybe he was still angry and half-mad from his imprisonment when he saw her hanged. I don't know, just trying to defend one my favorite characters, sorry if I sound too fanboyish :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 No, but considering the pressure Tyrion was under, and what he would have gained had he raped Sansa, not raping her is more than just a decent act.I don't care about his pressures or what he might gain from it, simply not raping someone (much less a child) is the basic criteria of being a decent person not some great deed of goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 He's not as big a bastard as he could be.But refraining from certain evils does not make a man good.He's about as bad as your average Westerosi Lord, he pulls a number of stunts without worrying how it'd affect others, and he is ultimately quite selfish, but he's not evil per-say.How is he bad though? How does he directly harm other people. And I've listed things in my post that show Tyrion doing good things, not only refraining from evil acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 How is he bad though? How does he directly harm other people. And I've listed things in my post that show Tyrion doing good things, not only refraining from evil acts.And other people has listed things showing Tyrion doing bad things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 I don't care about his pressures or what he might gain from it, simply not raping someone (much less a child) is the basic criteria of being a decent person not some great deed of goodness.Not today, and certainly not objectively at all, but in the middle ages rape was sometimes considered okay or even encouraged, and Tyrion could have easily done that and gotten away with it. An evil person would have done it. Tyrion didn't, so he isn't evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 And other people has listed things showing Tyrion doing bad things.Such as? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Not today, and certainly not objectively at all, but in the middle ages rape was sometimes considered okay or even encouraged, and Tyrion could have easily done that and gotten away with it. An evil person would have done it. Tyrion didn't, so he isn't evil.Nor does that make him good, moreover I have never called him evil.Such as?Both Bright Blue Eyes and David Selig have listed some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Tyrion trying to cripple a certain bard. Talk about disproportionate repercussions.Tyrion intending to have the Vale reduced to ruins and ashes.Tyrion not showing any compassion about Masha Heddle...That's just from the very first book. Tyrion isn't Ramsay, but he is in no way good or compassionate.Spot on. He's not a good guy. Tyrion is a Lannister and is just like the rest of his family. He just happens to have a few moments of decency. Also LOL on the idea that not raping someone makes him a good person. I know plenty of people who are able to somehow abstain from raping others all the time.I don't remember him wanting to cripple Marilion, can you remind me?I doubt he literately meant what he said to the tribesmen, I think he was just telling them what they wanted to hear to get them on his side. He never made any attempts to "give them the Vale" beyond empty promises.I agree about the innkeeper, such a horrible scene. But then again, Tyrion has been desensitized to death and violence. And this was after he was kept in a sky cell for a long time, so maybe he was still angry and half-mad from his imprisonment when he saw her hanged. I don't know, just trying to defend one my favorite characters, sorry if I sound too fanboyish :)He didn't just want to cripple him, Tyrion actually did. He steps on the singer's hand on the way to the Vale, breaking all his fingers in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf2375 Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 1) Not raping Sansa, when doing so would make him Lord of Winterfell.this whole thing ends with your first point. NOT raping someone doesn't make him a good person.He is not a good person, he has not done all "evil" acts - the plans for Bran's horse being an example - but he is not a good person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 this whole thing ends with your first point. NOT raping someone doesn't make him a good person.He is not a good person, he has not done all "evil" acts - the plans for Bran's horse being an example - but he is not a good person.(sigh) An evil person would have raped Sansa. A neutral person with a streak of cruelty and greed in him would have done it. Tyrion didn't. Therefore he is a "good" character. And I don't mean Jesus-Superman good, but a decent person, compared to the majority of the people in the world of ASOIAF, who are cruel scum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 (sigh) An evil person would have raped Sansa. A neutral person with a streak of cruelty and greed in him would have done it. Tyrion didn't. Therefore he is a "good" character. And I don't mean Jesus-Superman good, but a decent person, compared to the majority of the people in the world of ASOIAF, who are cruel scum.No it doesn't, it just makes him a decent neutral person as not raping someone isn't an act of goodness even in the cynical world of ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 (sigh) An evil person would have raped Sansa. A neutral person with a streak of cruelty and greed in him would have done it. Tyrion didn't. Therefore he is a "good" character. And I don't mean Jesus-Superman good, but a decent person, compared to the majority of the people in the world of ASOIAF, who are cruel scum.It's basic human decency. The default state should be not raping someone, deciding not to do so isn't a particularly altruistic act. It doesn't make him a good person, it means he isn't a complete monster. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf2375 Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 (sigh) An evil person would have raped Sansa. A neutral person with a streak of cruelty and greed in him would have done it. Tyrion didn't. Therefore he is a "good" character. And I don't mean Jesus-Superman good, but a decent person, compared to the majority of the people in the world of ASOIAF, who are cruel scum.Sigh. No - using "well, he didn't rape someone" is NOT proof someone is a good person. It never has been in this argument regardless of how many times it has been brought up.Good people don't murder the prostitute they hired.Good people don't murder their father.Good people don't send other humans to be part of bowls of brown.Good people don't to lie to their own brother about killing his own nephew.Good people don't poison their own sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf2375 Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 It's basic human decency. The default state should be not raping someone, deciding not to do so isn't a particularly altruistic act. It doesn't make him a good person, it means he isn't a complete monster. Big difference.I hate double posting, but jesus, this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 No it doesn't, it just makes him a decent neutral person as not raping someone isn't an act of goodness even in the cynical world of ASOIAF.Very well, you have your opinion and I have mine. I respect yours, I just believe that in a world where rape isn't considered a vile crime, as it is common for soldiers to rape in war, and Tywin encouraged his soldiers to rape and brutalize people, not raping someone isn't simply a no-brainer as it is in our world and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfellian Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 I ike Tyrion the character but to pretend he's just a good person turned bad because of external influence and situations out of his control is rather misguided.1) Not raping Sansa, when doing so would make him Lord of Winterfell.While there's something to be said about him going against his baser needs, you don't get cool points for not being a rapist. Not raping doesn't inmediately make you a good person. I suggest you thread carefully on this point. The mods are very strict with posts involving this particular topic.2) Sending all the members of the City Watch who participated in the atrocity of killing Robert's bastards, and specifically arranging the death of the gold cloak who killed the baby, Allar Deem.Let's face it. He didn’t do it out of a sense of responsibility towards the Wall or as a way to hold his promise to the Old Bear. It was certainly a clever rouse but Tyrion benefitted directly from sending them away. With Slynt gone he gained full control of the City Watch (something that would have saved Ned during his time as Hand) by appointing someone loyal to him exclusively. More importantly, Tyrion promised the Old Bear to give an account of the hardships the NW was facing, but when he became Hand and had power at his disposal, what did he do for the Wall?3) His disgust at Cercei's vicious political tacticsHe might disdain them but he certainly uses pretty vicious methods himself. Example- When he kidnaps Tommen and then led Cercei to believe that he will suffer as Alayaya does, including the beatings and the rapes. Later when he finds out that Alayaya had been whipped he contemplated doing the same to Tommen or else everybody would have seen that his threats were empty and perceived him as weak. Pretty vicious if you ask me, considering what a sweet kid Tommen is.4) Helping Bran with his saddle.This was rather nice of him, but it begs the question- would he have done this had Jon not asked him to help Bran? Not to mention that he suspects from the very beginning that Cersei and Jaime are behind Bran’s accident and never shows any particular regret about doing nothing.5) "And why would I ever need your Allar Deem, Lord Slynt? Tyrion thought. I have a hundred of my own. He wanted to laugh; he wanted to weep; most of all, he wanted Shae." He is disturbed by the evil that surrounds him, and to cope with it, he uses humor, especially cynical humor.That shows him to be a very conflicted character not a good person. It contrasts with something Ned told Jon once: Some men are not worth having. A bannerman that is unjust or cruel dishonor himself as much as his liege Lord (paraphrasing here) A good man like Ned would probably balk and refuse to use a person like Allar Deem, a grayer one like Tyrion is 100% willing to use them for his own purposes even if he is aware of the immoral aspect of their employment and conduct.6) His kindness towards Tysha, and his hatred for his father, which is due to what Tywin did to her.I honestly don't understand how this is supposed to make him a good person.7) Even after Tywin's death, he shows kindness to Penny, and feels sorry for her ("She deserves better than a pig")After all the cruel things Tyrion has done from AGOT are we to conclude that he's a good person because he occasionally show Penny some kindness? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwolf of the Starks Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 He is kinda a douche but he is not evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 He's...Wait for it......Gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 He's...Wait for it......Gray.Okay, I can accept that. But on the whiter part of grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Very well, you have your opinion and I have mine. I respect yours, I just believe that in a world where rape isn't considered a vile crime, as it is common for soldiers to rape in war, and Tywin encouraged his soldiers to rape and brutalize people, not raping someone isn't simply a no-brainer as it is in our world and time.That is like saying Tywin was a good father in how he didn't abandon Tyrion or force him to go to the wall like Randyll did with Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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