The Kingslayer

[Light a wight tonight]

Department of What Ifs:

What if Robert had decided to punish Jaime for killing Aerys by sending him to the Wall instead of retaining him in the Kingsguard? I mean beyond the fact that it would totally destroy the storyline.

Would he still marry Cersei? Would she hate him for sending her "other self" away from the position she'd engineered for him as well as for still loving the memory of Lyanna? Or would he marry someone else, like that Florent that he impregnated in Stannis's marriage bed?

Thoughts?

[Jorah the Andal]

Yeah, well I can't imagine Tywin would of been happy with the decision, so the marriage pact would of probably been put off. Maybe Robert would of looked to Dorne for a bride, to stregthen they're already fragile 'alliance'.

[RumHam]

Yeah, well I can't imagine Tywin would of been happy with the decision, so the marriage pact would of probably been put off. Maybe Robert would of looked to Dorne for a bride, to stregthen they're already fragile 'alliance'.

I wouldn't have loved to hear the dornish response to that proposal.

[juanml82]

He would marry Cersei, specially so since he now has to bring the Lannisters into the fold, and they would have an even worse marriage.

But actually, Cersei's firstborn son, without Jaime around, might be Robert's. Subsequent children will probably be bastards - with such a lousy marriage, it's only a matter of time until Cersei gets another lover(s).

The additionally sad fact, depending on where in the nature vs. nurture debate we position ourselves, is that Robert will neglect his only trueborn son and that kid might just become as much as a prick as Joffrey.

Now, the thing is, Jon Arryn might not suspect the other two (or more) children are bastards. Even more, Cersei's lover might be dark haired. Jon will want to foster his son well away from Lysa, so he might end up dying on schedule. But Ned doesn't have a (false) lead to find out why he was murdered. Even if he's pointed at Cersei's infidelity and he confronts Cersei, she will clearly tell him the crown prince is Robert's legitimate son.

Renly should still be plotting to bring Margery to KG, which has to result in Cersei's death and, with the addition of Ned Stark as a hand, Robert Baratheon is likely to die on schedule. But Ned won't claim Stannis is the king if Robert's firstborn is legitimate. Cersei will claim the regency by force of arms but, without treason, Ned probably gets back to Winterfell. The funny thing is, Renly would rebel, but neither Stannis nor Ned will - so the Lannisters actually need the North by then. With Sansa's engagement, they have it. So we have the Tyrells and most of the Stormlands against the Westerlands, the other part of the Stormlands, the North and maybe the Riverlands. It will be the war of the two kings, or three if Balon rebels as well. Maybe Renly manages to get Dorne on their side, but it's doubtful.

[Jorah the Andal]

I wouldn't have loved to hear the dornish response to that proposal.

Well, Dorne has always blamed the Lannisters on what happened to Elia and her children. Besides Robert or Ned weren't even in KL when the sack went down. Plus if Robert had've sent Jaime to the wall, Tywin would've likely called off the marriage with Cersei. Went back to Casterly Rock. Dorne after hearing all this sends up an envoy AKA The Red Viper, with a marriage proposal from Dorne. Could of turned out pretty interestingly.

But alas Doran probably wuld of held out for the later marriage of Viserys/Arianne. But the RV might've wanted revenge there and then, especially with a strained relationship, between the Lannisters and the new King.

[Julian Lannister]

B-but he did it for the good of the people!! Seriously though, I think Tywin would have been so pissed he would not have extended the offer. I doubt Robert would have married the impregnated Florent. Dorne was the only real choice since no other great houses have a daughter suitable for marriage and Robert needed to consolidate his power by marriage with a powerful family.

[juanml82]

I think Tywin's anger is a matter of negotiating. Also, keep in mind Tywin wants a place in the new order. So it would go as this:

Jon Arryn: Jaime is guilty of kingslaying, the penalty is death

Tywin: Kill my son and there will be war

Jon Arryn: We have four houses by our side, Dorne hates your guts and there is an open slot to ingratiate ourselves with one additional major house. Go to war if you will, we'll defeat you utterly

Tywin: HE'S MY SON!

Jon Arryn: There might be an option to keep him alive, but we need to make sure you're invested in Robert's rule. Let's have your daughter marrying Robert. She'll be a queen and your grandchild king. In regards to Jaime, he'll be given the option to take the Black instead.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Tywin would've been pissed but he is no fool. Jaime was already removed from his plans when he became a KG. He would still have given Cersei to Robert, but with even more deception in the background.

[locke and key]

I'd be interested in how Jaime would fit into the NW, Especially at this time when he still had his ideas of knighthood and it's honour, I think he would have the potential to become LC or 1st ranger, but he might also receive a lot of hate for being a kingslayer especially from loyalists like ser alliser (I also think LC at the time might've been a loyalist as house qorgyle are loyalists to the martells, so he would've given him a hard time) I can also imagine that if He were killed cersei might name one of her kids after him

[Northern Nomad]

I think Tywin's anger is a matter of negotiating. Also, keep in mind Tywin wants a place in the new order. So it would go as this:

Jon Arryn: Jaime is guilty of kinslaying, the penalty is death

Tywin: Kill my son and there will be war

Jon Arryn: We have four houses by our side, Dorne hates your guts and there is an open slot to ingratiate ourselves with one additional major house. Go to war if you will, we'll defeat you utterly

Tywin: HE'S MY SON!

Jon Arryn: There might be an option to keep him alive, but we need to make sure you're invested in Robert's rule. Let's have your daughter marrying Robert. She'll be a queen and your grandchild king. In regards to Jaime, he'll be given the option to take the Black instead.

It was king not kinslaying.

[Korgon The Reaver]

Department of What Ifs:

What if Robert had decided to punish Jaime for killing Aerys by sending him to the Wall instead of retaining him in the Kingsguard? I mean beyond the fact that it would totally destroy the storyline.

Would he still marry Cersei? Would she hate him for sending her "other self" away from the position she'd engineered for him as well as for still loving the memory of Lyanna? Or would he marry someone else, like that Florent that he impregnated in Stannis's marriage bed?

Thoughts?

If we've learned anything through the series, it's that Cersei isn't as powerful or smart as she thinks she is. She's have no choice in the matter, as marriages are arranged by Lords of a house for much larger considerations.

[Korgon The Reaver]

Yeah, well I can't imagine Tywin would of been happy with the decision, so the marriage pact would of probably been put off.

So Tywin would have cut off his nose to spite his face? I don't think so. "I will not allow my house to survive and my daughter to become queen,,,, unless my son is treated fairly"... Give me a break. Tywin doesn't give two shits about his individual children, only their contribution to the Lannister's legacy. He would never save Jamie at the cost of a Queenship for his daughter.

[Jorah the Andal]

So Tywin would have cut off his nose to spite his face? I don't think so. "I will not allow my house to survive and my daughter to become queen,,,, unless my son is treated fairly"... Give me a break. Tywin doesn't give two shits about his individual children, only their contribution to the Lannister's legacy. He would never save Jamie at the cost of a Queenship for his daughter.

So Tywin would of ''allowed'' Jaime to take the black, have Cersei as queen and name Tyrion his heir? I don't think so. He was probably hoping to have Jaime relieved of his KG vows, and name him his heir. But Ned/Robert insisting he be sent to the wall, would of put Tywin back to square one in regards to Jaime.

Having Cersei as Queen still wouldn't be ideal for Tywin he wouldv'e wanted Jaime 'pardoned' before he consented to the marriage of Cersei/Robert.

[juanml82]

It was king not kinslaying.

Agh, that was a typo, thanks, edited.

So Tywin would of ''allowed'' Jaime to take the black, have Cersei as queen and name Tyrion his heir? I don't think so. He was probably hoping to have Jaime relieved of his KG vows, and name him his heir. But Ned/Robert insisting he be sent to the wall, would of put Tywin back to square one in regards to Jaime.

Having Cersei as Queen still wouldn't be ideal for Tywin he wouldv'e wanted Jaime 'pardoned' before he consented to the marriage of Cersei/Robert.

Since the institution of the Kingsguard no White Cloak was ever relieved of his vows, so I don't think Tywin considered that.

[Mad Monkey]

I think Tywin was probably thinking that, if he could only get Robert just a few more million dragons into debt to him, he would finally have enough leverage to get Robert to sign some kind of warrant voiding Jaime's Kingsguard oath. It wasn't a sure thing by any means though.

[juanml82]

Unless he wants to trade debt for release, essentially buying Jaime's freedom, I don't see it. If you owe a bank $ 100 and you can't pay, you have a problem. If you owe a bank $ 1,000,000,000 and you can't pay, the one with the problem is the bank. Lending even more money to the crown means approaching the second case. Debt itself isn't leverage. It's the ability to lend at cheaper rates than the market what provides leverage.

[RSLee]

This is Tywin that we're talking about. He's not exactly a forgiving man. The man started an entire war over a dwarf son that he never even liked. If Robert and Jon had tried to send the kid that he actually likes to the Wall, they would've been fighting a war with the Lannisters.

[Cersei of the Kingsguard]

well i think sending to the wall would piss Tywin off alot

if he dismissed him from kingsguard it would be better for Jamie , Ned and Robert

[JanAgro]

Tywin is nothing if not pragmatic.If Jon Arryn had said to him "Either Jaimie goes to the wall or Ned Stark goes to Casterly Rock" he would have agreed Rememer at this time Tywin is in KL with 1/3 of his forces.if Ned had gone into the westerlands with Bobs Army plus the tyrells Tywin would have been in trouble and he knew it

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

I wouldn't have loved to hear the dornish response to that proposal.

This is Tywin that we're talking about. He's not exactly a forgiving man. The man started an entire war over a dwarf son that he never even liked. If Robert and Jon had tried to send the kid that he actually likes to the Wall, they would've been fighting a war with the Lannisters.

A rather short and unsucsesful war I imagine...