Jamie "Reekness" ?

[N/A]

I doubt that Jaime knew about no other woman besides Cersei, simply Jaime is fully responsible for his crimes.

Personally, I find attempts to blame Cersei for all his crimes by Jaime and others undermines his whole redemption arc.

you mistake me dear friend

i am and always was one of those who will never forgive nor excuse Jamie no matter how many heroic acts he makes "the good does not wash out the bad"

he's fully responsible though i couldn't help but notice a few similarities between him and reek once you look at him in this light as in forget the HOW and LOOK at what is or rather WAS

[mrunderhill]

I doubt that Jaime knew about no other woman besides Cersei, simply Jaime is fully responsible for his crimes.

Personally, I find attempts to blame Cersei for all his crimes by Jaime and others undermines his whole redemption arc.

Jaime never had sex with any other woman except Cersei. He says this a number of times.

[Dany Girl]

If not love what was the 9 million references to 'the things i do for love'

not love, codependence. Kind of like what serial killing couples/ duos feel. They think it's love because it is so strong, but it isn't love.

[Minsc]

Jaime never had sex with any other woman except Cersei. He says this a number of times.

I didn't know that you have to have sex with a woman to know them?

[mrunderhill]

not love, codependence. Kind of like what serial killing couples/ duos feel. They think it's love because it is so strong, but it isn't love.

What is to say serial killing couples don't love each other? Jaime loved Cersei, but she never really loved him and instead used him to further her own power.

[N/A]

Love isn't always a noble sentiment. This was love in its unhealthiest mode. He was obbsesively in love with her and that;s why he needed all those years to get out of that relationship. What truly awoke him was Brienne, who became paragon of knightly values Jaime once aspired.

perhaps but i could hardly believe that the external influence of brienne is the only reason for his redemption (it takes something from within to change ones ways so drastically and i think that was the purpose of Jamies dream how his mother denies him being a knight )

i for one cannot accept anything unless i'm fully convinced with it i guess you could say "I have to feel it in my guts"

[mrunderhill]

I didn't know that you have to have sex with a woman to know them?

I thought he was using "know a woman" as a euphemism for sex. Still I don't think Jaime actually did know many women apart from Cersei. Every girl, who ever tried get close to Jaime, Cersei got rid of.

[Minsc]

I thought he was using "know a woman" as a euphemism for sex. Still I don't think Jaime actually did know many women apart from Cersei. Every girl, who ever tried get close to Jaime, Cersei got rid of.

He referenced his meeting Brienne as changing that and those two haven't had sex yet. Moreover, I doubt that Cersei went around killing every girl/woman that Jaime met. Especially, seeing how we know that met up with both young Catelyn and Lysa at Riverrun as a squire.

[N/A]

What is to say serial killing couples don't love each other? Jaime loved Cersei, but she never really loved him and instead used him to further her own power.

entrapment ?

[N/A]

He referenced his meeting Brienne as changing that and those two haven't had sex yet. Moreover, I doubt that Cersei went around killing every girl/woman that Jaime met. Especially, seeing how we know that met up with both young Catelyn and Lysa at Riverrun as a squire.

to clear this up "known" as in spent a substantial amount of time with and exchanged views and opinions and perhaps even had a conection with

and how could Cersei a girl of 15 (not sure) at the time not even queen hopt to kill lysa and Cat ?

[Dany Girl]

What is to say serial killing couples don't love each other? Jaime loved Cersei, but she never really loved him and instead used him to further her own power.

serial killers are usually some form of sociopath, meaning they are incapable of feeling real emotion. Any feelings they do have are self absorbed are rely on what their partner can give them for the alpha and for the beta it's about pleasing and getting recognition from the alpha. Jamie was the beta. He thought he loved Cersie. That's not real love though. Cersie was alpha. All thoughts of loving Jamie were just an extension of her self love. She's a socio, he's codependent. Codependent people have a very difficult time functioning without the object of affection, and will at times commit heinous acts to prove their devotion (like pushing a child off a tower to protect Cersie and himself). But if you can break that codependency, a lot of people can lead normal well functioning lives. It's similar to an abusive relationship as well. The alpha member makes the beta member feel like they can't exist without the alpha, that's why most women who end up in abusive relationship won't leave, they forget they exist outside the relationship. This is very similar to Jamie/ Cersie, Cersie abuses him mentally and emotionally their whole lives and he ends up codependent upon her.

[mrunderhill]

He referenced his meeting Brienne as changing that and those two haven't had sex yet. Moreover, I doubt that Cersei went around killing every girl/woman that Jaime met. Especially, seeing how we know that met up with both young Catelyn and Lysa at Riverrun as a squire.

She only appears to have killed one girl, but she had the others sent away. Every girl that came to Casterly Rock was sent away for either getting to close to Jaime or "telling tales." He met up with Catelyn and Lysa, but I don't think he has had much interaction with women. Look at Robb for another example. The first girl he seems to really interact with is Jeyne. The first girl Jon interacts with appears to be Ygritte. Jaime then joins the Kingsguard at 15 and spends two years with the Mad King.

[Minsc]

She only appears to have killed one girl, but she had the others sent away. Every girl that came to Casterly Rock was sent away for either getting to close to Jaime or "telling tales." He met up with Catelyn and Lysa, but I don't think he has had much interaction with women. Look at Robb for another example. The first girl he seems to really interact with is Jeyne. The first girl Jon interacts with appears to be Ygritte. Jaime then joins the Kingsguard at 15 and spends two years with the Mad King.

Jaime didn't even live with Cersei for a number of years, thus she could hardly that much control over his interactions especially if Tywin was committed to finding him a suitor.

[mrunderhill]

serial killers are usually some form of sociopath, meaning they are incapable of feeling real emotion. Any feelings they do have are self absorbed are rely on what their partner can give them for the alpha and for the beta it's about pleasing and getting recognition from the alpha. Jamie was the beta. He thought he loved Cersie. That's not real love though. Cersie was alpha. All thoughts of loving Jamie were just an extension of her self love. She's a socio, he's codependent. Codependent people have a very difficult time functioning without the object of affection, and will at times commit heinous acts to prove their devotion (like pushing a child off a tower to protect Cersie and himself). But if you can break that codependency, a lot of people can lead normal well functioning lives. It's similar to an abusive relationship as well. The alpha member makes the beta member feel like they can't exist without the alpha, that's why most women who end up in abusive relationship won't leave, they forget they exist outside the relationship. This is very similar to Jamie/ Cersie, Cersie abuses him mentally and emotionally their whole lives and he ends up codependent upon her.

It may be controversial, but I don't like profiling people, because I cannot get into their head and sometimes people lie even to themselves. If you want to break things down like that then you could argue every loving relationship is really just codependency. Killing Bran was to save Cersei's life and her children. I think a lot of people would have done the same in the series.

Cersei can be charming, beautiful and entertaining when she wants. Yes she is very dark underneath, but it's not like Jaime spent his days thinking he could not live without her.

[Mladen]

perhaps but i could hardly believe that the external influence of brienne is the only reason for his redemption (it takes something from within to change ones ways so drastically and i think that was the purpose of Jamies dream how his mother denies him being a knight )

i for one cannot accept anything unless i'm fully convinced with it i guess you could say "I have to feel it in my guts"

You have Sansa and Sandor paralleling this pair. Brienne just remembered him what ideals of true knight is. She made him realize what he has lost, and how good it once felt to be knight. Brienne, just like Sansa in Sandor, gave Jaime a new chance. And Jaime didn't change so drastically, it was step by step...

And also, I don't need to say I feel it in my gut, when I have textual support for what I am saying.

[N/A]

She only appears to have killed one girl, but she had the others sent away. Every girl that came to Casterly Rock was sent away for either getting to close to Jaime or "telling tales." He met up with Catelyn and Lysa, but I don't think he has had much interaction with women. Look at Robb for another example. The first girl he seems to really interact with is Jeyne. The first girl Jon interacts with appears to be Ygritte. Jaime then joins the Kingsguard at 15 and spends two years with the Mad King.

you bring up a great point i forgot about with both Jon and Robb they both presumably had their first sexual encounter with Ygritte and Jeyne and both believed they loved them the same as Jamie with Cersei does that mean it was love without question i think not

[bbstark]

The premise of the OP is absurd, as it appears to put the blame of Jaime's shortcomings on Cersei. This appears to be a common avenue of "reason" for many people who want to elaborate on Jaime's redemption arc past what we know of him and Cersei. It's tempting to do, since he is on an redemptio arc, but Cersei is not, but the logic is flawed. Nothing we know of their past indicates a "Master and Reek" relationship. In fact it's much more plausible that they genuienly loved each other.

Suggesting that Jaime 'obeyed' Cersei is ridiculous. He obeyed Cersei when it was convenient for him. He was first and foremost a shitty father. He storms into the delivery room, and makes a big hoopla about being present at Joff's birth, and then disappears from responsibility because "Cersei wanted him to". This is the most contrived reason to abstain from having a positive impact on a child's life, even if you are acting like an "uncle". He wasn't "obeying Cersei", he was being a deadbeat dad.

If you have doubts over an uncle's influence on a child's life, I cite Benjen and Oberyn, being treated with the utmost respect and their authority unquestioned by their respective family members.

Cersei is not without flaws, but they are both equally culpable for the unhealthy relationship they developed. To suggest otherwise is to deliberately bring in your own bias into the character analysis. It's fine if you want to do that, just own up to it.

What you are saying is "I don't like Cersei, so I blame her for corrupting Jaime". It's ok if you want to think that, it's just not in the text.

[mrunderhill]

Jaime didn't even live with Cersei for a number of years, thus she could hardly that much control over his interactions especially if Tywin was committed to finding him a suitor.

Tywin had found the perfect match for him; Lysa. Apart from Rhaegar and Viserys, Jaime was probably the most eligible bachelor in Westeros. Tywin would not have to struggle to find him a match. Robb has not been spirited all over the North to find him a decent match. Jaime before that was being a squire and training. He lived with a bunch of boys and there is no suggestion he came into contact with many women.

[mrunderhill]

The premise of the OP is absurd, as it appears to put the blame of Jaime's shortcomings on Cersei. This appears to be a common avenue of "reason" for many people who want to elaborate on Jaime's redemption arc past what we know of him and Cersei. It's tempting to do, since he is on an redemptio arc, but Cersei is not, but the logic is flawed. Nothing we know of their past indicates a "Master and Reek" relationship. In fact it's much more plausible that they genuienly loved each other.

Suggesting that Jaime 'obeyed' Cersei is ridiculous. He obeyed Cersei when it was convenient for him. He was first and foremost a shitty father. He storms into the delivery room, and makes a big hoopla about being present at Joff's birth, and then disappears from responsibility because "Cersei wanted him to". This is the most contrived reason to abstain from having a positive impact on a child's life, even if you are acting like an "uncle". He wasn't "obeying Cersei", he was being a deadbeat dad.

If you have doubts over an uncle's influence on a child's life, I cite Benjen and Oberyn, being treated with the utmost respect and their authority unquestioned by their respective family members.

Cersei is not without flaws, but they are both equally culpable for the unhealthy relationship they developed. To suggest otherwise is to deliberately bring in your own bias into the character analysis. It's fine if you want to do that, just own up to it.

What you are saying is "I don't like Cersei, so I blame her for corrupting Jaime". It's ok if you want to think that, it's just not in the text.

I agree Jaime should have done more for his children, but he genuinely believed what Cersei told him here. This can be seen when he gives Tommen advice. He does not want anyone to catch him giving Tommen advice, because he fears the repercussions. I agree he should have tried harder, but there was a real conflict on this issue. I don't think it's true, but Jaime definitely believes that if he got too close the children then it would reveal the game and they will die.

EDIT

Here is the bit where he talks to Tommen. It's not just an excuse for him, the lives of the children are at stake in his mind and things are a lot less dangerous than when Robert was alive.

This will not do. Too many eager ears and watching eyes. "Best we go outside, Your Grace."

He took the king off to the side, well away from everyone, and sat him down upon the marble steps.

[Dany Girl]

The premise of the OP is absurd, as it appears to put the blame of Jaime's shortcomings on Cersei. This appears to be a common avenue of "reason" for many people who want to elaborate on Jaime's redemption arc past what we know of him and Cersei. It's tempting to do, since he is on an redemptio arc, but Cersei is not, but the logic is flawed. Nothing we know of their past indicates a "Master and Reek" relationship. In fact it's much more plausible that they genuienly loved each other.

Suggesting that Jaime 'obeyed' Cersei is ridiculous. He obeyed Cersei when it was convenient for him. He was first and foremost a shitty father. He storms into the delivery room, and makes a big hoopla about being present at Joff's birth, and then disappears from responsibility because "Cersei wanted him to". This is the most contrived reason to abstain from having a positive impact on a child's life, even if you are acting like an "uncle". He wasn't "obeying Cersei", he was being a deadbeat dad.

If you have doubts over an uncle's influence on a child's life, I cite Benjen and Oberyn, being treated with the utmost respect and their authority unquestioned by their respective family members.

Cersei is not without flaws, but they are both equally culpable for the unhealthy relationship they developed. To suggest otherwise is to deliberately bring in your own bias into the character analysis. It's fine if you want to do that, just own up to it.

What you are saying is "I don't like Cersei, so I blame her for corrupting Jaime". It's ok if you want to think that, it's just not in the text.

I completely agree. While I think Jamie was completely codependent upon Cersie, that does not negate his actions and place blame in Cersie. He is 100% responsible for his actions, even those done to make Cersie happy or protect her (and by extension himself).