Countering a major point of genetics

[The Black Hawk]

Alright many of the agruements about why Jon is Rhaegar's son is because of his looks but here is a character born a long time before Jon

Ser Aegor Rivers, often called Bittersteel, was a renowned warrior and one of the Great Bastards fathered by Aegon IV. His mother was Barba of House Bracken.[1] In his personal arms, he combined the the coat-of-arms of his parents: a red stallion for House Bracken with black dragon wings for House Blackfyre, on a golden field.

Contents [hide]

1 Character and appearance

2 History

3 Quotes

4 Family

5 References and Notes

Character and appearance

Bittersteel was a warrior, and looked the part. He was tall and well-made, but also lean and lithe. He was only half Targaryen, so he got the purple eyes, but his hair was black. As an adult he wore a close-cropped beard.

House Bracken's history

House Bracken of Stone Hedge is an old house from the Riverlands, with the blood of the First Men in their veins. They are sworn to House Tully. They blazon their arms with a red stallion upon a golden escutcheon on brown.[1][2] Their words do not appear in the books.

Bracken lands lie along the Red Fork of the Trident.[3]

Contents [hide]

1 History

2 The Bracken House at the end of the third century

2.1 Historical Members

3 References in the books

3.1 Dunk & Egg

3.2 A Song of Ice and Fire

4 References and Notes

History

They had been petty kings during the Age of Heroes, until the arrival of the Andals. They have an old bitter feud against their neighbors the Blackwoods, coming from the Age of Heroes when both houses ruled as kings. The feud has continued throughout the years, aided by House Bracken's change to the Faith of the Seven.[4] Battle Valley and the village of Blackbuckle are part of the disputed land.[5]

So why is Bittersteel so different when they come from the same ethinic groups in Westeros so maybe looking at the past can give us our answer.

[Morienthar]

I don't get what you are trying to say are you asking why doesn't Jon look exactly like Bittersteel??

Bittersteel had the looks of the First Men that is apart from the eyes,But Jon didn't even get the eyes,call it what you will Recessive Genes or GRRM trying to hide the truth.

[FuriousGeorge]

This thread epitomises why The Black Hawk is the best poster westeros.org has ever known or will ever know. A beautiful way with words, consummate grasp of the English language, well thought out and rational posts, and a critical insight that you just don't see from many other posters.

[otherbeef]

there are other instances of Targaryens taking after their non-Targ mothers looks such as Baelor Breakspear and Princess Rhaenys off the top of my head. Whether R+L=J is true or not (most likely is) Jon's looks shouldn't really come into the argument.

[King of Winters]

Bloodraven has First Men, Andal and Rhoynar blood. Yet he's got white hair, red eyes and he's an albino. He has no Targ traits yet he's a Targ (bastard).

Jon is the same as Bloodraven, he's got First Men, Andal and Rhoynar blood, and he clearly doesn't have any Targ traits. Jon can still be a Targ even of Bittersteel had purple eyes.

[The Black Hawk]

They mothers are Dornish which is Rhoynish, Andal, and First Men melting pot and both children were the first of they siblings look at Baelor's brothers all had Valyrian traits. Plus neither him nor Rhaenys eyes were never mention ever hear the eyes are the key to the soul.

[blood of the dragoon]

Bloodraven has First Men, Andal and Rhoynar blood. Yet he's got white hair, red eyes and white skin. He has no Targ traits yet he's a Targ (bastard).

Jon is the same as Bloodraven, he's got First Men, Andal and Rhoynar blood, and he clearly doesn't have any Targ traits. Jon can still be a Targ even of Bittersteel had purple eyes.

Albino

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Thank the gods for you, Black Hawk. Without you we would all be floundering in a sea of ignorance and confusion.

[King of Winters]

Albino

Thanks. Forgot that.

[FuriousGeorge]

Thank the gods for you, Black Hawk. Without you we would all be floundering in a sea of ignorance and confusion.

We ARE floating in a sea of ignorance and confusion. The Black Hawk simply enables us to acknowledge that fact. All hail The Black Hawk.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

We ARE floating in a sea of ignorance and confusion. The Black Hawk simply enables us to acknowledge that fact. All hail The Black Hawk.

He's the rubber ring thrown to drowning people, the kind that hits you in the face and leaves you dazed and confused.

[Ygrain]

They mothers are Dornish which is Rhoynish, Andal, and First Men melting pot and both children were the first of they siblings look at Baelor's brothers all had Valyrian traits. Plus neither him nor Rhaenys eyes were never mention ever hear the eyes are the key to the soul.

Good queen Alysanne had blue eyes, not purple.

And if Rhaenys had Dornish looks, you bet she didn't have purple eyes.

[FuriousGeorge]

He's the rubber ring thrown to drowning people, the kind that hits you in the face and leaves you dazed and confused.

He is the perfectly intact custard cream in a bag of broken biscuits that it turns out has a coconut centre.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Their mothers are Dornish - which is Rhoynish, Andal, and First Men melting pot, and both children were the first of their siblings. Look at Baelor's brothers - all had Valyrian traits. Plus neither his nor Rhaenys' eyes were ever mentioned. Ever heard "the eyes are the key to the soul"?

The key difference being that Rhaenys' mother also had Valyrian blood, due to the first Daenerys' marriage to the ruling prince of Dorne at the time.

And yeah, not every Targaryen is silver-haired and purple-eyed. Was that your point?

[Mladen]

Bloodraven has First Men, Andal and Rhoynar blood. Yet he's got white hair, red eyes and he's an albino. He has no Targ traits yet he's a Targ (bastard).

Jon is the same as Bloodraven, he's got First Men, Andal and Rhoynar blood, and he clearly doesn't have any Targ traits. Jon can still be a Targ even of Bittersteel had purple eyes.

Are we assuming that Andal part came from Targaryen side? Since, I know for Valyrian, Rhoynar and First Men's blood in Jon, but Andals. It must have come from some of Targaryen Kings, right?

ETA:

Was that your point?

There is no point. This is just fact of life :)

[King of Winters]

Are we assuming that Andal part came from Targaryen side? Since, I know for Valyrian, Rhoynar and First Men's blood in Jon, but Andals. It must have come from some of Targaryen Kings, right?

I think so.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Are we assuming that Andal part came from Targaryen side? Since, I know for Valyrian, Rhoynar and First Men's blood in Jon, but Andals. It must have come from some of Targaryen Kings, right?

Yeah, I was beating the drum on that one a couple of months ago. If RLJ is true, Jon has the royal blood of every major ethnic group in Westeros - First Men (Stark), Valyrian (Targaryen), Rhoynar (Martell), Andal (Arryn) and possibly even COTF's (the Marsh King).

[Bluesnow]

People argue against Jon being Rheagar's because of his looks?

What argument do they use thats plausible... not that I'm a diehard L+R=J... but I just assumed any such arguments against his looks could be swept under the rug because Jon has primarily a Northern look to him that resembles the Starks.

Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys had dark hair that was familiar to her mother's... so I thought it was well established that people can look like either of their parents in this universe o.o

Or maybe I'm missing the point of your thread. Sorry if I am xD

He's the rubber ring thrown to drowning people, the kind that hits you in the face and leaves you dazed and confused.

[DavosSeaworthy]

This is the danger of clicking on threads that appear on the homepage. Usually I read the author who wrote the thread before clicking to avoid such nonsense, but alas the homepage does not have that feature. I will learn my lesson for next time.

[A Man Has Said]

He is the perfectly intact custard cream in a bag of broken biscuits that it turns out has a coconut centre.

Excuse my ignorance, but does that mean that Jon Snow IS a Targaryen or that he ISN'T? I know there must be some very obvious logical connection, but I just can't see it even when I squint.