Water dancing vs Westerosi Knights

[E-Ro]

There is no arrow that can pierce plate, this bodkin thing isnt really any more effective against plate then any other arrows. At very close range you may dent the plate a a bit, but you wont pierce it.

[The Great Walrus]

I can imagine a waterdancer defeating a knight by getting his rapier through one of the gaps in the knights plate, but the knight would have more of an advantage thanks to his armor and a shield if he's using one.

[Light a wight tonight]

I'm pretty sure that most Braavosi soldiers are not water dancers, so this notion that ''waterdancers cant stand a heavy cavalary charge'' is a pretty unfair comparison since most knights on foot cant stand it either.

Makes sense.

Beyond that, Braavos's strength is its navy, not foot or horse. Heavy cavalry really sucks against a war galley.

[Fauch]

True, but only if they caught the knights and infantry in open areas. Constricted areas favored the knights and infantry. The Magyars were finally defeated when Germany became a heavily fortified country, with every bridge protected, etc. and the forces of Otto I became more disciplined. In and out raids didn't work anymore.

horses were armored as well (not all but most at war)

and i'm assuming you're talking about the mongols (they had good armor and heavy cavalry not just horse archers and they conquered a divided land not a strong nation united not that i'm saying westeros is united now but in the events of an invasion they will most like unite IMO)

Never claimed that the Dothraki could conquer Westeros, as Mormont aptly says "they couldn't even take the weakest caslte in westeros". Apart from Viserys/Dany's/Drogo's obvious incompetence as battle field commanders, such an invasion would have ended in a desaster.

[Light a wight tonight]

There is no arrow that can pierce plate, this bodkin thing isnt really any more effective against plate then any other arrows. At very close range you may dent the plate a a bit, but you wont pierce it.

Many, many years back there was a test done on a Spanish conquistador-style front plate. It actually stopped lead round balls from a muzzle-loader as well as arrows. It took a magnum pistol round to penetrate. They didn't test with crossbow quarrels as far as I can remember. Bodkin points were effective against mail where broadheads were not.

[E-Ro]

Many, many years back there was a test done on a Spanish conquistador-style front plate. It actually stopped lead round balls from a muzzle-loader as well as arrows. It took a magnum pistol round to penetrate. They didn't test with crossbow quarrels as far as I can remember. Bodkin points were effective against mail where broadheads were not.

Exactly my point. The bodkin will do better against mail then its normal head counterpart, but that's it.

As for dothraki vs westerosi men at arms/knights dont get me started, long story short, the knights and men at arms win. Dothraki are not mongols, they couldn't be further from them in fact. Mongols used heavy armor, excelled at sieges, and adopted the enemies tactics and equipment. The dothraki do none of this.

[N/A]

There is no arrow that can pierce plate, this bodkin thing isnt really any more effective against plate then any other arrows. At very close range you may dent the plate a a bit, but you wont pierce it.

true but it is possible for it to pierce at close range there are examples (but not enough penetration to do harm) a quarrel from a crossbow on the other hand

there were actually some crossbows designed for armor penetration (the strings were made of horse hair and silk thus giving much more draw force)

[Djinn]

Many, many years back there was a test done on a Spanish conquistador-style front plate. It actually stopped lead round balls from a muzzle-loader as well as arrows. It took a magnum pistol round to penetrate. They didn't test with crossbow quarrels as far as I can remember. Bodkin points were effective against mail where broadheads were not.

minute 8:00

[Morienthar]

Heavy cavalry really sucks against a war galley.

The reverse is true as well.

minute 8:00

That wasn't a Bodkin arrow.

[E-Ro]

lol since when is deadliest warrior a source for anything? We need to account for numerous things, range, accuracy of all materials used etc.

[N/A]

lol since when is deadliest warrior a source for anything? We need to account for numerous things, range, accuracy of all materials used etc.

i always thought that show was shit. totally unrealistic tests that have nothing to do with real battle and always with the pigs

[Morienthar]

i always thought that show was shit. totally unrealistic tests that have nothing to do with real battle and always with the pigs

Flash and crappy reenactments.

and btw the modern replicas of the really old guns they use are generally a few times more powerful than the originals.

[Light a wight tonight]

The reverse is true as well.

Of course, but the Braavosi are smart enough to play to their strength, which is sea power.

[Morienthar]

Of course, but the Braavosi are smart enough to play to their strength, which is sea power.

The Knights stay on Land and the Sailors on the Water,No War,Profit for everyone.

[N/A]

Flash and crappy reenactments.

and btw the modern replicas of the really old guns they use are generally a few times more powerful than the originals.

true there are always some defects with the original

while the new is picture perfect

[Frey Pie]

Their description implies smaller number of heavy cavalry equipment (full plate, lance, destrier), and the tradition of knighthood isn't present therefore the training regimen must have considerable differences. Tywin was always trying to provoke a classic decisive battle, which Robb refused. It always seemed that Robb knew that he would be at disadvantage at that.

He refused because Tywin was offering battle in a place of his choosing-never fight the battle your opponent wants you to. I dont think we get a clear description of Northern heavy cav do we? But yes, the Westerners would have better equipment

Ability wise there is no difference, certainly if you look at the accomplishments of the Northern cav versus that of the West, the Northern cavalry under Robb is clearly more decorated. Training wise-Domeric Bolton squired in the Vale, but wouldnt have become a "knight". I imagine heavy Northerners are the Southern knights equivalent in every way other than name

[N/A]

Of course, but the Braavosi are smart enough to play to their strength, which is sea power.

to tell you the truth i always thought westeros ought to have one of the strongest navys because it was an island inaccessible by land (kinda like how England developed) but not really and it doesn't make sense to me

[Djinn]

That wasn't a Bodkin arrow.

The point was that there's a reason why the disuse of armor coincides with the rise of firearms. Some firearms wouldn't pierce breastplate, but others would.

[Djinn]

He refused because Tywin was offering battle in a place of his choosing-never fight the battle your opponent wants you to. I dont think we get a clear description of Northern heavy cav do we? But yes, the Westerners would have better equipment

Ability wise there is no difference, certainly if you look at the accomplishments of the Northern cav versus that of the West, the Northern cavalry under Robb is clearly more decorated. Training wise-Domeric Bolton squired in the Vale, but wouldnt have become a "knight". I imagine heavy Northerners are the Southern knights equivalent in every way other than name

You don't think that the lack of a tourney tradition in the North would influence it? Note that i'm refering to heavy cavalary, not other types of cavalary units. Domeric as heir to the dreadfort, is very much a exception. Robb or Jon never squired at all.

[Ducks in a Field]

I suppose that this can't offer any insight into the actualities, but my ASoIaFRP character is a water dancer - In combat he is able to go first and is hard to hit. This is a strength in single combat as he can usually take his foe out before they get a chance to attack. In open warefare however he would always wear heavier armour, ignoring most of the benifits he would get for fighting in a Braavosi style - but as he is facing multiple attacks, and even being hard to hit he will get hit some, the damage reduction of armour is more valuable.

I don't see why this wouldn't carry over to a Water Dancer in open war against a Westerosi knights. It would be better for the Water Dancer to go armoured, and take a reduction in effeciency.

It is important to remember that Water Dancing is a philosophy as well as a fighting style - whgilst armour would hamper things such as "Swift as a Snake", thoughts such as "The Eyes see True" would still help them in a fight. Wouldstill give it to the unit of knights though...

to tell you the truth i always thought westeros ought to have one of the strongest navys because it was an island inaccessible by land (kinda like how England developed) but not really and it doesn't make sense to me

But each of the old kingdoms is bigger than Britain I am fairly sure - One may be betterofflookng atthe history of European warfare for where Westerosi sea power would be.