Water dancing vs Westerosi Knights

[Morienthar]

Well the westeros army isn't composed of unsullied and seems to be comprised of mostly poor farmer/soldiers wearing boiled leather, so there may be validity to Jorah's concerns.

You should really read this...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros/

[Fauch]

Dothraki were horse archers on top of it. Horse Archers were proven to be effective multiple times during history. Could they go toe to toe with westerosi Knights and charge into heavy cavalry and expect to win? Certainly not, but a bodkin arrow can even pierce heavy plate.

The unsullied a really a special case here, because they don't possess the #1 weakness that heavy Cavalry loves to exploit - the chance that the enemy might break.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Dothraki were horse archers on top of it. Horse Archers were proven to be effective multiple times during history. Could they go toe to toe with westerosi Knights and charge into heavy cavalry and expect to win? Certainly not, but a bodkin arrow can even pierce heavy plate.

The unsullied a really a special case here, because they don't possess the #1 weakness that heavy Cavalry loves to exploit - the chance that the enemy might break.

... if they acted together with heavy cavalry and were disciplined soldiers. Which the Dothraki don't posses and aren't.

And yes, a bodkin arrow can pierce plate - at less than 30 feet and with a perfect 90° angle. Or stated otherwise, through a lucky hit one second before the archer becomes shish kebab. Furthermore, that's an infantry bow, not a horse bow, who'd have way less power.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Never mind

[Djinn]

Water dancers are mostly a individual fighting style, more suitable to duel or small skirmishes. It's also a mistake to say that the knights style is better for large battle, because it's not the style that makes the difference, it's the equipment. Most soldiers in Westeros aren't knights but still have a advantage because of armor, polearms,etc. Also, most water dancers are Braavosi, and they fight mostly on ship deck, a context that clearly favor them. Notice that most Dornish have a fighting style adjusted to their environment, and they do just fine. The ''speed-skill'' style only become predominant in battlefields with gunpowder, since armor loses most of it's efficiency.

I'm pretty sure that most Braavosi soldiers are not water dancers, so this notion that ''waterdancers cant stand a heavy cavalary charge'' is a pretty unfair comparison since most knights on foot cant stand it either.

As for swords, water dancers likely use something like a ropera.

[E-Ro]

The knight, in mail or plate would completely wreck a waterdancer most of the time. Barring exceptional skill like syrio. The armor gives a huge advantage and this whole "the speed factor from wearing armor" is pretty much inaccurate. The speed loss is negligible. The swords that waterdancers use are like rapiers, they wont hold up against what the westerosi are running around with. Especially since most knights will be using a polaxe anyway.

[Frey Pie]

Not the Dothraki again.....Theyd so totally beat the untrained peasants of Westerosi loike....

As for the OP while water dancers are faster and some such as Syrio may be technically superior to the majority of knights a knights armor would win the battle for him if he keeps his wits about him. In battle the water dancers would be horrible. In addition, contrary to strong belief a knights was fairly flexible in his armor and is not as weighed down as most seem to think

[N/A]

Well the westeros army isn't composed of unsullied and seems to be comprised of mostly poor farmer/soldiers wearing boiled leather, so there may be validity to Jorah's concerns. However, Jorah may be looking at them solely as units and not factoring in their horrible leadership and battle tactics. (Charging into spears over and over again :bang: ).

i advise you to read this thread by E-ro http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros/

it should set your views of westerosi armies straight

[N/A]

Dothraki were horse archers on top of it. Horse Archers were proven to be effective multiple times during history. Could they go toe to toe with westerosi Knights and charge into heavy cavalry and expect to win? Certainly not, but a bodkin arrow can even pierce heavy plate.

The unsullied a really a special case here, because they don't possess the #1 weakness that heavy Cavalry loves to exploit - the chance that the enemy might break.

well you're assuming Dothraki have bodkin arrow tips which is probably wrong because dothraki are not described as an advanced people and the bodkin technology is an advanced one

[C0bR]

Could light cavalry with horse archers and a sense of discipline and tactic compete with heavy cavalry? Well, maybe

Could Dothraki? No. They would charge straight against heavy cavalry, with their arakhs bouncing off the plate and their heads getting chopped off.

[Djinn]

I also find the notion that Braavosi soldier don't wear armor/shield ridiculous. Lighter armor, maybe. A helmet+breastplate uniform, likely, but none?! Water dancers are to the Braavosi as knightly orders(NW or KG) are to the Westerosi, a exception not a rule.

There's also no such thing as a Westerosi style and a Essoi style. Dornish, Westerlanders, Ironborn or Northman have considerable differences between them, as much as Braavosi, Volanthenes, Ghiscari, Dothraki or Norvosi. Roperas are popular in Braavos, Battle axes in Norvos, Scimitars among the Dothraki(ignore that lame kopesh nonsense in the show), Falcata/Xyphos with the Ghiscari and only GRRM know what with the Quartheen or Volanthenes. Different weapons, different capabilities, different approaches. Not to mention other equipment comparisons, like bows, polearms, armors,etc.

As for the circumstantial comparisons, so a water dancer can't withstand a heavy cavalry, but a full plate knight should be able to fight with no problem in unsteady ground? The only way to make a accurate comparison is to offer both fighters either even ground that doesn't favor either or favored ground for each. Otherwise, your just waving away your bias flag to the crowd.

Robb/Ned had a considerable shortage of knights in his/their forces, and that didn't seem to stop them from prevaling.

[Frey Pie]

Robb/Ned had a considerable shortage of knights in his/their forces, and that didn't seem to stop them from prevaling.

This is purely down to the Northern heavy cavalry not being named knights, due to their religion. Training and skill-wise they are equal and Robb seems to have brought a few thousand with him

[N/A]

I also find the notion that Braavosi soldier don't wear armor/shield ridiculous. Lighter armor, maybe. A helmet+breastplate uniform, likely, but none?! Water dancers are to the Braavosi as knightly orders(NW or KG) are to the Westerosi, a exception not a rule.

There's also no such thing as a Westerosi style and a Essoi style. Dornish, Westerlanders, Ironborn or Northman have considerable differences between them, as much as Braavosi, Volanthenes, Ghiscari, Dothraki or Norvosi. Roperas are popular in Braavos, Battle axes in Norvos, Scimitars among the Dothraki(ignore that lame kopesh nonsense in the show), Falcata/Xyphos with the Ghiscari and only GRRM know what with the Quartheen or Volanthenes. Different weapons, different capabilities, different approaches. Not to mention other equipment comparisons, like bows, polearms, armors,etc.

As for the circumstantial comparisons, so a water dancer can't withstand a heavy cavalry, but a full plate knight should be able to fight with no problem in unsteady ground? The only way to make a accurate comparison is to offer both fighters either even ground that doesn't favor either or favored ground for each. Otherwise, your just waving away your bias flag to the crowd.

Robb/Ned had a considerable shortage of knights in his/their forces, and that didn't seem to stop them from prevaling.

ok so here is my take on single combat

see here is the thing it's a simple matter of reach vs flexibility the light warrior needs to be agile and flexible enough to remain outside the reach of his heavier opponent at all times because most like one swing would be enough to end him (the red viper case all it took was for him to be within gregors reach)

so it's not a given nor is it a probability that the lighter warrior would win it's rather even and it could only go down to two things weapons used (to determine the reach of each warrior ) and the individual skill that varies from one man to the other in terms of stamina strength agility quickness and experience (foresight )

it's wrong to assume that any of them would win without having first weighed in these factors

as for open filed battle i always take a grass field as a basic standpoint (it's level ground the offers no real advantage to anyone

and about what you said a breastplate is heavy armor and no matter where your from battle is the same (except gorilla warfare) it's all about holding the lines heavy infantry holds the line while your cavalry tries to flank that's the most basic warfare if your infantry is lightly Armored they won't hold long enough and no one is dumb enough to charge cavalry at spears you your infantry and then as usual you flank with your cavalry would your infantry win against the spears before you flank? they don't have to. they need only hold long enough for the cavalry to flank

as for Ned and Robb what Frey pie said holds true

and Robbs army had considerable cavalry you also forget the riverlords that joined with their knights

[Fauch]

well you're assuming Dothraki have bodkin arrow tips which is probably wrong because dothraki are not described as an advanced people and the bodkin technology is an advanced one

Maybe. Dothraki horse archers probably could kill the knight's horses though. After that the Knights are a lot less scary. Maybe I give Jorah too much credit for what he says, but I think he is accurate.

Concerning our history, Knights + Infantry WERE beaten by horse archers. They usually tried to separate the cavalry from the infantry, continuously flanked them, etc.

[Steve Moss II]

It's a myth that an armored knight is not mobile on foot. The weight is well distributed and they train their entire lives to carrying it without problem. There are accounts of armored knights running, jumping and even swimming in their armor.

[N/A]

Maybe. Dothraki horse archers probably could kill the knight's horses though. After that the Knights are a lot less scary. Maybe I give Jorah too much credit for what he says, but I think he is accurate.

Concerning our history, Knights + Infantry WERE beaten by horse archers. They usually tried to separate the cavalry from the infantry, continuously flanked them, etc.

horses were armored as well (not all but most at war)

and i'm assuming you're talking about the mongols (they had good armor and heavy cavalry not just horse archers and they conquered a divided land not a strong nation united not that i'm saying westeros is united now but in the events of an invasion they will most like unite IMO)

[N/A]

It's a myth that an armored knight is not mobile on foot. The weight is well distributed and they train their entire lives to carrying it without problem. There are accounts of armored knights running, jumping and even swimming in their armor.

yes exactly but i think swimming is pushing it

[Steve Moss II]

Concerning our history, Knights + Infantry WERE beaten by horse archers. They usually tried to separate the cavalry from the infantry, continuously flanked them, etc.

True, but only if they caught the knights and infantry in open areas. Constricted areas favored the knights and infantry. The Magyars were finally defeated when Germany became a heavily fortified country, with every bridge protected, etc. and the forces of Otto I became more disciplined. In and out raids didn't work anymore.

[Djinn]

This is purely down to the Northern heavy cavalry not being named knights, due to their religion. Training and skill-wise they are equal and Robb seems to have brought a few thousand with him

Their description implies smaller number of heavy cavalry equipment (full plate, lance, destrier), and the tradition of knighthood isn't present therefore the training regimen must have considerable differences. Tywin was always trying to provoke a classic decisive battle, which Robb refused. It always seemed that Robb knew that he would be at disadvantage at that.

ok so here is my take on single combat

as for open filed battle i always take a grass field as a basic standpoint (it's level ground the offers no real advantage to anyone

and about what you said a breastplate is heavy armor and no matter where your from battle is the same (except gorilla warfare) it's all about holding the lines heavy infantry holds the line while your cavalry tries to flank that's the most basic warfare if your infantry is lightly Armored they won't hold long enough and no one is dumb enough to charge cavalry at spears you your infantry and then as usual you flank with your cavalry would your infantry win against the spears before you flank? they don't have to. they need only hold long enough for the cavalry to flank

as for Ned and Robb what Frey pie said holds true

and Robbs army had considerable cavalry you also forget the riverlords that joined with their knights

My point about the context was more about the knight-waterdancer comparison. But bringing the idea of the waterdancer being easily crushed in front of a heavy cavalry charge is the same as saying a fully armored knight in a ship-deck is more of a hindrance then not(Vic non withstanding). A waterdancer isn't a open battlefield warrior, so by placing him there, it's automatically a disadvantage. It's like putting a ninja or a nizari in the same position. How would a knight fare in a ship-deck, on a narrow passageway, in a swampy ground, in the desert? Not well, most likely.

I'm pretty sure that is Braavos needs to deploy troops in a open-battlefield, they will be suitably equipped. Besides infantry standing to a heavy horse charge is more about positioning and reach. Knights on foot with plate, longsword and shield wont fare any better against cavalry.

Again, pound for pound Northern cavalary is presented as not as good as Westerlander, in terms of at least equipment.

[Steve Moss II]

yes exactly but i think swimming is pushing it

http://wiki.answers...._medieval_times

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090211191300AA5jRZl

Remember we can't judge these guys in regards to our own abilities. They lived in their armor. I live on a coach with a beer in one hand and a bag of chips in another.