A Clash of Personalities: Activity vs. Passivity in Relationships

[TalalOfDorne]

How about Littlefinger and Lysa?

Is it also safe to assume that Littlefinger was submissive to Lysa (Though not completely I guess)? Now I admit this sounds a bit of a stretch. We do see Lysa going to a drunk and depressed Littlefinger and have sex with him, granted he probably confused her with Catelyn. However, doesnt the fact that she was the one who made the first move mean something?

And when Sansa escapes King Landing and goes with Littlefinger to the Vale. We see Lysa greeting and receiving them before they get to the Eyrie. It is there we see Lysa insisting on having the wedding before getting to the Eyrie. I believe even when Littlefinger tried to convince her otherwise she wouldn't listen. She ends up having her own way in that matter.

However we also have Lysa practically doing anything Littlefinger tells her in the political matters. And to do that Littlefinger uses the people she holds dear to get her to do what he wants (Sweetrobin, and even Littlefinger himself). Im not sure though if that counts as manipulation or dominance because I can see these two being confused as the same thing. Lysa didnt seem to be manipulating Littlefinger in any way in their time in the Vale.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I think this is a really good example. Stannis is strong and relatively stoic, (if we excuse the teeth grinding,) and has a reputation for being intractable but in his personal relationships he is submissive. If we look at Cressen's prologue chapter he even submits to Selyse by not intervening.

Stannis may be "iron" but in the hands of some individuals, hes putty.

Ned was very much dominant in the Robert/Ned dynamic. Robert even submitted to Ned when it came to the attempt on Dany. Eventually.

[butterbumps!]

Would you say this applies to Bran in the cave?

jesus guys, I didn't expect all these serious questions to derive from that post in which I was clearly being a jackass. Nonetheless, no, this wouldn't apply to Bran: he's not being held such that his freedom is restricted, and perhaps more importantly, the cave is offering him more freedom and agency than he has from without given his condition.

[ab aeterno]

Stannis may be "iron" but in the hands of some individuals, hes putty.

Ned was very much dominant in the Robert/Ned dynamic. Robert even submitted to Ned when it came to the attempt on Dany. Eventually.

With Robert, certainly, though not With Cat. It's interesting to note that much like Stannis, Robert is incredibly submissive towards his wife, with her influence often leading his decisions, such as during the Lady/Mycah incident and during the Hand's tourney. Renly meanwhile seems to be quite submissive in his brief relationship with Marg and his longer one with Loras. Passivity and submissiveness then seems to be something that runs in the Baratheon family.

[The Fallen]

I personally disagree with your definition of being submissive. I would consider being submissive a choice. It's not about being forced to do things that you don't want to, in my opinion, it's about willingly submitting to the will of another person. I think we see this with both Ned and Robert in their relationships.

ETA: It is for this reason that I would say that Stannis is a submissive partner in his relationship with Davos. Stannis has the right to command Davos, Davos has pledged fealty and service to him, yet Davos always stands up to Stannis and never submits. More often that not, it is Davos' will that triumphs over Stannis'.

Hmm, I see where you're coming from. But doesn't submitting mean that you're making a decision? I tend to think that people who are naturally submissive don't choose to be submissive, but just succumb to the dominance of the other individual.

Also, with both Ned/Cat and Stannis/Davos, the former pick and choose when to "submit" to the latter. So even when they "submit" they're in control. I don't see that same control with Jaime with regards to Cersei.

[ab aeterno]

jesus guys, I didn't expect all these serious questions to derive from that post in which I was clearly being a jackass. Nonetheless, no, this wouldn't apply to Bran: he's not being held such that his freedom is restricted, and perhaps more importantly, the cave is offering him more freedom and agency than he has from without given his condition.

Well, forgive me if I expected a serious discussion. Now that is has been raised however, do we truly know how much agency Bran truly has? Can he leave, if he so chooses? Would the CotF allow it? The cave and his powers could be a siren call. Gradually trapping him there and binding him to their purpose.

[Florina Laufeyson]

With Robert, certainly, though not With Cat. It's interesting to note that much like Stannis, Robert is incredibly submissive towards his wife, with her influence often leading his decisions, such as during the Lady/Mycah incident and during the Hand's tourney. Renly meanwhile seems to be quite submissive in his brief relationship with Marg and his longer one with Loras. Passivity and submissiveness then seems to be something that runs in the Baratheon family.

Cat certainly was more dominant in the Ned/Cat relationship, but Ned had his moments. Like when he put his foot down regarding Jon. But other times...yeah. (She obviously enjoyed the rigorous lovemaking. Maybe it was her idea?)

Baratheons and submitting seems to be a good fit.

[ab aeterno]

Hmm, I see where you're coming from. But doesn't submitting mean that you're making a decision? I tend to think that people who are naturally submissive don't choose to be submissive, but just succumb to the dominance of the other individual.

Also, with both Ned/Cat and Stannis/Davos, the former pick and choose when to "submit" to the latter. So even when they "submit" they're in control. I don't see that same control with Jaime with regards to Cersei.

I think the submissiveness I'm talking about is more relative and relationship based, rather than absolute. These characters aren't necessarily submissive in all issues of their lives, indeed, often they are warriors of great strength and power, but they choose to submit within relationships, in my opinion.

Jaime though, I agree, is far more of a submissive personality who seems to be controlled in most of his relationships, at least up until Feast.

[ab aeterno]

Cat certainly was more dominant in the Ned/Cat relationship, but Ned had his moments. Like when he put his foot down regarding Jon. But other times...yeah. (She obviously enjoyed the rigorous lovemaking. Maybe it was her idea?)

Baratheons and submitting seems to be a good fit.

It may well have been her idea, that's a good point. I tend to think though that Robert putting his foot down was more about submitting to Lyanna, who was also dominant over Ned, and having been around Lyanna far longer, the conditioning in that sibling relationship was stronger.

[Éadaoin]

What about Lyanna and Rhaegar? Did she, as a friend of mine just put it, "own his ass"?

[E-Ro]

What about Lyanna and Rhaegar? Did she, as a friend of mine just put it, "own his ass"?

Yeah, she definitely did. I think raygar was the sub on that one, he is described as reserved, silent and pliable, while lyanna is said to be wild, and commanding.

[The Fallen]

I think the submissiveness I'm talking about is more relative and relationship based, rather than absolute. These characters aren't necessarily submissive in all issues of their lives, indeed, often they are warriors of great strength and power, but they choose to submit within relationships, in my opinion.

Jaime though, I agree, is far more of a submissive personality who seems to be controlled in most of his relationships, at least up until Feast.

Yeah, I was going to note that I may be going beyond the scope that the OP has set.

I think in relationships wherein you have strong women, the men will be submissive more often. Partly, and I'll tread lightly here, because you want to make your woman happy and partly (whether subconsciously or not) to make up for the fact that men have the built-in advantage of patriarchy and physical dominance. This, of course, doesn't apply to the male chauvinists like Craster and Randyll Tarley.

[Father of Hosts]

Yeah, she definitely did. I think raygar was the sub on that one, he is described as reserved, silent and pliable, while lyanna is said to be wild, and commanding.

I'm not sure. Partly because we don't a lot of information on them. I don't know if Rhaegar was pliable. He seemed to very much do his own thing despite what anyone thought of him.

Also, I'm not really sure if age matters, but she was 14 and he was 20. I guess I would assume that that type of age difference would make tend to make Rhaegar the more dominant one.

[ab aeterno]

Yeah, I was going to note that I may be going beyond the scope that the OP has set.

I think in relationships wherein you have strong women, the men will be submissive more often. Partly, and I'll tread lightly here, because you want to make your woman happy and partly (whether subconsciously or not) to make up for the fact that men have the built-in advantage of patriarchy and physical dominance. This, of course, doesn't apply to the male chauvinists like Craster and Randyll Tarley.

I think there may be something to that, and it is worthy of greater consideration and in more depth.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I'm not sure. Partly because we don't a lot of information on them. I don't know if Rhaegar was pliable. He seemed to very much do his own thing despite what anyone thought of him.

Also, I'm not really sure if age matters, but she was 14 and he was 20. I guess I would assume that that type of age difference would make tend to make Rhaegar the more dominant one.

This is a she-wolf we're talking about. Arya is barely 12 when we last saw her, and when she dominated all those dudes like Gendry and Hot Pie and Jaqen H'ghar. Its not too much of a stretch to imagine her auntie Lyanna being similar. She dominated Benjen as kids when Bran sees them in the weirwoods. Maybe Rhaegar liked that about Lyanna. ;)

[TalalOfDorne]

I guess settling the He Kidnapped Her VS She Went Willingly argument would help a lot in determining the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[E-Ro]

Yeah I have to say raygar was really a sub, I think hes almost as much a sub as jaime tbh, because of how silent, reserved, and pliable he was.

ETA: I think lyanna went willingly with him.

[ab aeterno]

I guess settling the He Kidnapped Her VS She Went Willingly argument would help a lot in determining the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I'm pretty much certain that she went willingly. Heck, he might have shared the prophesy with her and it might have been her idea. She didn't seem anywhere near as keen on Robert as Robert was on her, and I don't think she would have gone along, or been taken along, on anything she didn't want to do.

Yeah I have to say raygar was really a sub, I think hes almost as much a sub as jaime tbh, because of how silent, reserved, and pliable he was.

ETA: I think lyanna went willingly with him.

While I don't know that being silent or reserved necessarily makes you a submissive personality, - Roose was silent and reserved but I'm not sure he was submissive - I agree about Rhaegar.

[Janicia]

Interesting topic. Dominance / submission is one pole of a relationship; demonstrativeness / reserve is probably another, neediness / independence a third. There must be more. I think some of the discussion here is talking about relationships in terms of dominance / submission when perhaps another pole would be a better descriptor.

I think maybe the most interesting thing in this thread is our difficulty coming up with a good definition of submission. Submissiveness in many ways isn't respected or valued at this time. The definition I'd put forward for submission is "doing what the other person wants regardless of what you think about it." The person who submits doesn't have to be persuaded by the other person - the submissive does what the dominant wants. Jaime / Cersei falls into that mode.

I don't see LF as actually willing to give up control - he wanted Cat, but he always wanted her on his terms. He was also always in control of his relationship with Lysa (besides the drunken sex night). He woo'ed her with his chosen timing, made sure he got credit for the woo'ing with the Lannisters, and called the important shots. He humored her in many areas, but that's not submission.

I don't think the Baratheons were truly submissive, but they do have a neediness and seem to end up close to people more intelligent than they are.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Yeah I have to say raygar was really a sub, I think hes almost as much a sub as jaime tbh, because of how silent, reserved, and pliable he was.

ETA: I think lyanna went willingly with him.

Probably. Rhaegar may have liked being dommed. Perhaps this is where Jon gets it. Jon LOVES being dommed. (when it comes to the ladies anyway...Except Mel. Cuz he knows to sub for her would be bad news.)

Sansa dominated Sandor in a lot of ways. She seemed to consume his thoughts and even make him back down quite a bit with just a song. Damn girl. Shes gonna dom LF so hard.