A Clash of Personalities: Activity vs. Passivity in Relationships

[The Wolves]

I really liked Ygritte for that exact reason. She was a bit of a stereotypical red-head, but then so is Mel.

Her attitude about sex with Jon was very forceful and I didn't like that at all. I mean yeah Jon wanted it but she was demanding about it and it turned me off of the character and she was too much at times.

I like when a female character is fiery and sure of herself but with Ygritte it was too much IMO

[E-Ro]

Her attitude about sex with Jon was very forceful and I didn't like that at all. I mean yeah Jon wanted it but she was demanding about it and it turned me off of the character and she was too much at times.

I like when a female character is fiery and sure of herself but with Ygritte it was too much IMO

yeah, that's kinda what i mean about jon. Ygritte pushed him into stuff and was a bit forceful with him.

[ab aeterno]

In this context, I think the dominant one is more in control and the submissive more willing to go along. It doesn't make sense to think of it along the lines of a modern BDSM relationship where each person is consciously choosing to be either submissive or dominate.

I didn't have a modern BDSM relationship in mind, personally; I think that people can choose to submit, consciously of unconsciously, without that context. Having said that, Asha's escapades with Qarl seem to conform somewhat with what I understand to be the dynamics of a modern BDSM relationship, though I'm by no means an expert.

[Addam of Hull]

WRT Rhaegar and Lyanna, I'd be careful when it comes to making assumptions based on their personalities. People seem to be assuming that Lyanna would be more dominant based on how she typically is, but dominance and submission in a relationship doesn't always match up to normal expectations based on their typical personalities. Stannis is the quintessential example here - normally, he's a domineering and stalwart man that would cow most people, but he's fairly submissive when it comes to his significant relationships.

The other thing we should be aware of is that not every relationship has a strong or even notable dynamic between dominance and submissive and even then, I suspect that some relationships are distorted by the circumstances around them and inherent power differentials... though those differences can certainly influence the overall course of a relationship in a long term way. Jaime and Cersei comes to mind in that they probably had a much more equal relationship when they were younger, but Cersei's position as Queen gave her a natural amount of power over Jaime, who was destined to serve thanks to his position as a member of the Kingsguard. Cersei's personality and desire to be more powerful almost certainly influenced that, increasing the difference, while Jaime who probably isn't normally that submissive, didn't even realize it until after his hand got chopped off. I'm not really an expert on Jaime Lannister, but I wonder what a comparison of power and dominance in his relationship with Cersei to his potentially budding one of Brienne would show us.

An aside - I also wonder if we wouldn't see submission as a trend from member's of the Kingsguard. Ser Arys is naturally dominated by Arianne, as well, and Barristan's pining over Ashara seems to fit in line with a certain amount of passivity. I bet the relationship between Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and Queen Narys would be a fairly interesting one to read about and dissect in this vein.

[E-Ro]

An aside - I also wonder if we wouldn't see submission as a trend from member's of the Kingsguard. Ser Arys is naturally dominated by Arianne, as well, and Barristan's pining over Ashara seems to fit in line with a certain amount of passivity. I bet the relationship between Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and Queen Narys would be a fairly interesting one to read about and dissect in this vein.

I agree that would be really fascinating to read about, and interesting point about the kings guard. These men spend their lives serving, and taking orders. It makes sense they would be like this.

[Dr. Pepper]

Excellent thread, Eadie. I don't have time to read through all of it right now so I apologize if this has already been mentioned.

Samwell Tarly has a very dominating personality. It's quite subtle and is similar to the concept of topping-from-the-bottom in bdsm speak. Sam completely dominates Jon by manipulating him into feeling sorry for him. Later, Sam takes on a more dominating role towards his brothers as they are running from the fist. Despite being the size of a modern baby beluga, his orders to be carried by his minions are quickly followed.

Sam's dominating style isn't all about whimpering and manipulation. When his 'passives' don't act as they should, he puts them down. Just look what happened to poor Puddles. Puddles was savagely murdered by the dominating Samwell. While it was clearly a brutal event, it worked to reinforce Sam's status amongst his brothers.

[butterbumps!]

Excellent thread, Eadie. I don't have time to read through all of it right now so I apologize if this has already been mentioned.

Samwell Tarly has a very dominating personality. It's quite subtle and is similar to the concept of topping-from-the-bottom in bdsm speak. Sam completely dominates Jon by manipulating him into feeling sorry for him. Later, Sam takes on a more dominating role towards his brothers as they are running from the fist. Despite being the size of a modern baby beluga, his orders to be carried by his minions are quickly followed.

Sam's dominating style isn't all about whimpering and manipulation. When his 'passives' don't act as they should, he puts them down. Just look what happened to poor Puddles. Puddles was savagely murdered by the dominating Samwell. While it was clearly a brutal event, it worked to reinforce Sam's status amongst his brothers.

You really hit the nail on the head with this one, DP. We have good reason to believe that Sam is actually a Yezzen "yellow whale" zo Qxezzen in the making. The way they command their subjects to carry them despite their overbearing whale-size undoubtedly means that Sam is an incipient slaver given all the parallels we see. Only the most atrocious, sadistic individual could commandeer slaves, thereby proving that Sam, a slaver in the making, is one of the most appalling sorts of doms we see in this series.

[JMJ]

RE: Cersei's dom traits, I find it interesting that on the other hand she seems to completely defer to Joff, letting him run roughshod over everything.

Some other interesting dom/sub relationships:

Sansa (dom) / Tyrion (sub)

Brienne (dom) / Jaime (sub)

Margery (dom) / Joff (sub)

[E-Ro]

I don't know if I agree with the samwell tarly=dom comparisons. As we know, raygar was a total sub, and I think sam is the same. He hasn't really shown me any dominant traits other then his weight(as bumps mentions). He seems to play second fiddle to gilly IMHO, but hey I could be wrong.

[ab aeterno]

Margery (dom) / Joff (sub)

While Marg in the show has Joff wrapped around her fingers I'm not sure this is as explicitly the case in the books. Based upon their respective abilities and characters, I could certainly see it being the case, however.

[Dr. Pepper]

You really hit the nail on the head with this one, DP. We have good reason to believe that Sam is actually a Yezzen "yellow whale" zo Qxezzen in the making. The way they command their subjects to carry them despite their overbearing whale-size undoubtedly means that Sam is an incipient slaver given all the parallels we see. Only the most atrocious, sadistic individual could commandeer slaves, thereby proving that Sam, a slaver in the making, is one of the most appalling sorts of doms we see in this series.

Whoa, mind=blown. I didn't even think about how similar Sam's behavior is with the Yellow Whale. What's more, Sam manipulated Jon into sending him to the Citadel, something Sam wanted all along. And we know how maesters are in this series, completely and totally dominating.

I don't know if I agree with the samwell tarly=dom comparisons. As we know, raygar was a total sub, and I think sam is the same. He hasn't really shown me any dominant traits other then his weight(as bumps mentions). He seems to play second fiddle to gilly IMHO, but hey I could be wrong.

Evidence? I can't see anything particularly passive about Sam when he's around Gilly.

[JMJ]

While Marg in the show has Joff wrapped around her fingers I'm not sure this is as explicitly the case in the books. Based upon their respective abilities and characters, I could certainly see it being the case, however.

I agree that in the show it is very explicitly sub/dom, but I believe in the books it's more subtly portrayed. Certainly in the end, Margery came out on the better end, and it's clear she's doing the same with Tommen, although that's almost not fair in that Tommen is such a sweet, young lad.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Lyanna was willing but Rhaegar controlled the situation. I imagine he came up with the plans and told her where she was to go. Of course we don't know that for certain but that's what I imagine.

He's bookish but is also prophecy obsessed and is going to do whatever to make sure it happens. Rhaegar does seem dominant with Elia too. For example, crowning Lyanna in front of Elia sends the message to his wife that she can't do anything about it. She just has to sit there and accept it. Rheagar is the one in control and with the power.

As for Sandor, he used force (assault with a weapon) to get Sansa to sing a song. She was terrified and did it. He chose to not do anything further so I would say he never lost the dominant position in that situation. Even when she said she didn't want to go with him he could have snatched her up and taken her anyway. He said that he should have taken her. He knows he could have.

Anyways, Arya was definitely dominant. I actually don't think Gendry cared for that. He's submissive to both Arya and Willow but I don't think he wants to be.

At one point Arya says it's good that her friends fear her. That means they will listen to her.

During the "wrestling" fight he tries to get her to submit but she doesn't want to. & here I compared her to Lilith while Gendry was Adam. She picked an apple from a tree and threw it at him and refused to be beneath him.

"As Arya was cinching her saddle girth, Gendry came up to say that he was sorry. She put a foot in the stirrup and swung up into her saddle, so she could look down on him instead of up."

Catelyn and Ned I think was even. Catelyn could try to persuade but it's Ned who chooses when he wants to listen to her and when he doesn't. She actually has to work more but when Ned wants her to do something it seems to be final.

I agree that LF wasn't submissive with Lysa. They wrote letters to one another and he is the one who decided when they would be together.

[E-Ro]

Evidence? I can't see anything particularly passive about Sam when he's around Gilly.

The way he waits on her and does everything she says, is evidence enough that hes a sub imo. It takes one to know one, so i feel like i know what im talking about here.

[Dr. Pepper]

The way he waits on her and does everything she says, is evidence enough that hes a sub imo. It takes one to know one, so i feel like i know what im talking about here.

Quotes or it didn't happen.

Keep in mind that dominating behavior doesn't mean whips and orders. Not all the time. Doms are required to care for their charges.

[Éadaoin]

amazingness

Thanks, DP, and btw -- brilliant insight here, as per usual. I would never have pegged Sam as a dom, but your argument here is pretty airtight. He really does "top from the bottom", doesn't he? Poor Puddles never stood a chance.

but hey I could be wrong.

Well, at least you're right about one thing.

[Zupoleon]

What's more, Sam manipulated Jon into sending him to the Citadel, something Sam wanted all along. And we know how maesters are in this series, completely and totally dominating.

I'd lean towards calling Sam influential rather than dominating. Ok, so he's weak / passive in the physical sense, but he is rather highly intelligent. It's only natural for him to be able to assert his influence on others. To me, dominance indicates a desire to best the other person; I don't think that's the case with Sam...

[JMJ]

Keep in mind that dominating behavior doesn't mean whips and orders. Not all the time. Doms are required to care for their charges.

My mind has been blown. I now see Sam in a completely different light. His whole "I am craven" schtick was just an act to hide is domineering true persona. He faked his craven-ness so that he could escape his father and get to the Wall, where he could befriend Jon Snow and get Jon to manipulate Mormont and Aemon into making Sam a steward. He then proceeded to manipulate the NW into electing Jon LC. All during this time, he was burnishing his reputation as Sam the Slayer.

It's all clear to me now!

[Dr. Pepper]

I'd lean towards calling Sam influential rather than dominating. Ok, so he's weak / passive in the physical sense, but he is rather highly intelligent. It's only natural for him to be able to assert his influence on others. To me, dominance indicates a desire to best the other person; I don't think that's the case with Sam...

It's absolutely the case with Sam. He wanted to best Jon, and he did. He whimpered his way into manipulating a citadel trip. He even spent countless lonely hours with the rats in the Castle Black library to ensure he had the means to best Jon's intelligence. There is simply no other interpretation to be made regarding Sam the Dominator. This is the dude who killed Puddles, ffs.

[E-Ro]

Wait im confused now, so sams whole craven thing was just an act?