What's wrong with Sandor Clegane?

[Le Cygne]

That's interesting. It does seem as if there's a subconscious juxtaposition of LF and Sandor in Sansa's mind? It's LF she kisses "dutifully" but Sandor she imagines kissing. If you connect the "size" issue - well LF is littlefinger and Sandor is quite large ... :blushing:

ETA: maybe if LF's creepy factor escalates, we'll see more hints from Sansa?

It is interesting, isn't it? :) And the cool thing is that Littlefinger has no idea she's thinking about Sandor. So I wonder, if Myranda guesses, what will she do about it?

[Lala]

It is interesting, isn't it? :) And the cool thing is that Littlefinger has no idea she's thinking about Sandor. So I wonder, if Myranda guesses, what will she do about it?

I suppose it's really a question of who Myranda is as a character~

If she really does want to marry Harry the Heir and finds out about Sansa's engagement, I can see her using the knowledge to actively undermine the engagement. But if she and Sansa become good friends, I can see it going the other way as well - Myranda could really use it as a way to support Sansa and her increasing sense of agency and acknowledgement of her own desires. Possibly even do something to protect Sansa from LF's creepy interest?

I really hope it's the latter, I want to like Myranda and Sansa needs more girlfriends.

[Le Cygne]

I suppose it's really a question of who Myranda is as a character~

If she really does want to marry Harry the Heir and finds out about Sansa's engagement, I can see her using the knowledge to actively undermine the engagement. But if she and Sansa become good friends, I can see it going the other way as well - Myranda could really use it as a way to support Sansa and her increasing sense of agency and acknowledgement of her own desires. Possibly even do something to protect Sansa from LF's creepy interest?

I really hope it's the latter, I want to like Myranda and Sansa needs more girlfriends.

She could maybe do all of the above, right? There was also something about this quote:

By the time they finally reached her father’s castle, Lady Myranda was drowsing too, and Alayne was dreaming of her bed. It will be a featherbed, she told herself, soft and warm and deep, piled high with furs. I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard. And later there will be a feast, with music and dancing. After the deathly silence of the Eyrie, she yearned for shouts and laughter.

Dogs! Also I wonder what part Mya will play. This is kind of interesting, too, Mya:

"Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you. A mountain is not a man, though, and a stone is a mountain’s daughter."

[Lala]

She could maybe do all of the above, right? There was also something about this quote:

Dogs!

Clegane’s voice was thick with contempt. “Wouldn’t be worth the bother of arming myself. This is a tournament of gnats.”

The king laughed. “My dog has a fierce bark. Perhaps I should command him to fight the day’s champion. To the death.” Joffrey was fond of making men fight to the death.

Barking dogs - maybe Sansa misses listening to Sandor calling her "little bird" and helping her face the harsh reality of the world? ;)

That's certainly possible - if Martin's proved anything, it's that his characters and their motivations are complex~ I do think it's about time that there is someone Sansa can trust in her story arc again though - whether it's Mya, or Lothor, or Myranda, having her own "people" would be a first step towards freeing herself from LF. It would also be delicious irony if LF is outwitted by Sansa because she can trust other people - that this trust is exactly what puts her one step ahead of him in their game.

[Lord Reaver]

ETA: maybe if LF's creepy factor escalates, we'll see more hints from Sansa?

Wait, you want LF's creepy factor to increase ? :ack:

I thought it was close to critical level already.

[Lala]

Wait, you want LF's creepy factor to increase ? :ack:

I thought it was close to critical level already.

Nono. It's already really uncomfortable as it is. Simply that part of Sansa's musings about Sandor seem to be related to LF's creeping - that and the arranged marriages are what are causing her to reflect on what she wants and desires. So logically, an escalation of that might also lead to more revelations on Sansa's desires.

Honestly, I want LF nowhere near Sansa - he's a fascinating character and I appreciate his part in Sansa's character growth, but still :eek:

[Lord Reaver]

Yes, LF really really creeps me the heck out. Which is weird since I have no problem with Euron and his tale of feeding one captured prisoner to the other or Vic's burn-offering of virgins. Something about LF's manipulations though...

Edit: Well, 'no problem' would be an understatement, but they just don't affect me in nearly the same manner.

[Lala]

Yes, LF really really creeps me the heck out. Which is weird since I have no problem with Euron and his tale of feeding one captured prisoner to the other or Vic's burn-offering of virgins. Something about LF's manipulations though...

Edit: Well, 'no problem' would be an understatement, but they just don't affect me in nearly the same manner.

I think it's the subconscious mess that he's made for himself in Sansa (this is much better explained in the PtP threads)

Sansa is Cat 2.0

Sansa is his daughter with Cat

Sansa is his mother "Alayne"

She's like ideal lover, daughter, and mother all mixed up in one Freudian mess for him.

[Le Cygne]

She's like ideal lover, daughter, and mother all mixed up in one Freudian mess for him.

Yuk. It will be good for her to be with other people.

Robert likes Myranda. Littlefinger is wary of her:

“Soon or late you must meet Myranda Royce,” Petyr had warned her. “When you do, be careful. She likes to play the merry fool, but underneath she’s shrewder than her father. Guard your tongue around her.”

[manting]

Jesus - Go back to writing Twilight fan fiction why dontcha

[Lala]

Yuk. It will be good for her to be with other people.

Robert likes Myranda. Littlefinger is wary of her:

Someone that LF is wary of - Myranda may be much more than she seems :P

When Sansa interacts more with Myranda in TWoW it will also be a nice chance to see more sides of Sansa's character - we don't really get a chance to see her interact with other women after Margaery and the other Tyrell girls - so it'll be some nice insight into Sansa and her relationships with other young women.

Jesus - Go back to writing Twilight fan fiction why dontcha

I'm not even going to dignify this with a more indepth response except that you should be careful about what you post if you don't want to get warning points/banned.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Hmm, did you guys forget that your not in the PtP threads? This thread is "What's wrong with Sandor Clegane?" so discussing whether or not "Sandor is evil" is on topic (whether you find it fun or not) and the discussion for the last few pages has been off topic and currently severely so, I would think. :dunno:

[manting]

Hmm, did you guys forget that your not in the PtP threads? This thread is "What's wrong with Sandor Clegane?" so discussing whether or not "Sandor is evil" is on topic (whether you find it fun or not) and the discussion for the last few pages has been off topic and currently severely so, I would think. :dunno:

I agree

[Lord Reaver]

Hmm, did you guys forget that your not in the PtP threads? This thread is "What's wrong with Sandor Clegane?" so discussing whether or not "Sandor is evil" is on topic (whether you find it fun or not) and the discussion for the last few pages has been off topic and currently severely so, I would think. :dunno:

:agree: And thank you.

[Le Cygne]

Someone that LF is wary of - Myranda may be much more than she seems :P

Yes, true.

The OP specifically asks about the nature of Sandor's relationships with Arya and Sansa, and what this reveals about Sandor. Which we are exploring.

We learn about Sandor primarily in the text from Sansa's POV chapters, and to a lesser degree Arya's POV chapters. His primary interactions in the series are with Sansa. Sansa 's last chapter concerns Sandor, there are several direct and indirect references, and we are analyzing these.

[Lala]

Yes, true.

The OP specifically asks about the nature of Sandor's relationships with Arya and Sansa, and what this reveals about Sandor. Which we are exploring.

We learn about Sandor primarily in the text from Sansa's POV chapters, and to a lesser degree Arya's POV chapters. His primary interactions in the series are with Sansa. Sansa 's last chapter concerns Sandor, there are several direct and indirect references, and we are analyzing these.

Agreed. An understanding of Sansa and the nature of her character is an integral part of understanding the relationship between Sansa and Sandor and through that, Sandor. After all, we don't have a POV from Sandor and so our only true means of understanding him is through his relationships with other characters - which necessitates an understanding of the other half of the relationship.

It's interesting how when we put it in this context, Sandor can be seen as a juxtaposition of virility against LF's ... well ... littlefinger.

[Le Cygne]

It's interesting how when we put it in this context, Sandor can be seen as a juxtaposition of virility against LF's ... well ... littlefinger.

True. It stands out more and more, and especially in the last chapter, the way the author has juxtaposed Sandor and Littlefinger in the text, and the common thread is the attraction to Sansa. She's been Sandor's primary motivator. Gregor had been driving him, but on his deathbed, he thought of her, not damn, I never got to kill Gregor.

[Light a wight tonight]

Sandor's relationship with Sansa and Arya shows some interesting parallels. As a little boy he was fascinated by knights and chivalry. As was Sansa. He then becomes a killer. As did Arya. Later he becomes disillusioned by the falsity behind knighthood, and Sansa is also forced to deal with reality. Sandor has his near-death experience and somehow sets his Hound persona aside. Can that mean that Arya will have a Quiet Isle-type moment where she decides to turn away from violence?

OK, a bit off topic.

Edited to insert a left-out line.

[Le Cygne]

Can that mean that Arya will have a Quiet Isle-type moment where she decides to turn away from violence?

I think that's a really good point, and all three, Sandor, Sansa, and Arya, are tied together, like the OP said, too.

I think Arya and Sandor are in some ways headed in opposite directions, and tied to "the human heart in conflict with itself" theme, and this is reflected in the "where the heart is" line. His heart opened up for Sansa, he found someone, and Arya's heart is closing off, she lost everyone. But it doesn't have to stay that way for Arya. Interesting in the recent interview, GRRM says she's not an assassin yet.

[SaltpansResident]

What's wrong with Sandor is that in AGoT, he's a violent thug working for bad people. I don't know what other reason the girls need to be justified in distrust and fear.

He changes in subsequent books because he doesn't enjoy inflicting pain on Sansa, most likely because she's pretty. But forbearance from attack for that reason is suspect in itself when unaccompanied by any sign of compassion for other, less pretty, people, so again she's right to be scared.

I'm a little bit curious to see if he turns into a caring person, but I found his character dull enough that as far as I'm concerned he can stay on his island. The "redeemed by love" trope is very tired and I can imagine GRRM wearying of the task and ditching Sandor for that reason alone.