What's wrong with Sandor Clegane?

[Lala]

I was hoping to elicit a response from you, brashcandy. :P

Obviously not everyone is as dedicated to Sansa as you are. Please take this as a compliment. For those of us who wish to understand her more, and are willing to invest in her character (to a degree) wouldn't it be helpful to collect all evidence of her character development into a concise "cheat sheet" so whenever the discussion about her stupidity comes up, you could simply copy and paste and be done with it? This seems a lot more helpful than simply telling posters that they have not read the all the PtP threads and thus don't fully understand Sansa. I doubt anyone except a very select few would be willing or possess the stamina to sift through the evidence and arguments collected in 20 threads.

If getting people to understand Sansa is your goal, then I think actually providing concrete evidence of her development will do a lot more to sway people to your cause then telling people that they have not looked hard enough to understand her.

Well, why not link the posts that you think are especially helpful? For those of us who are ignorant, we still have no idea what exactly you are referring to by these wonderful posts.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72119-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-x/#entry3496620

brief summary on why a SanSan marriage isn't as socially unacceptable and unfeasible as some posters make it out to be

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72119-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-x/#entry3498253

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72119-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-x/#entry3498156

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72119-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-x/#entry3497036

These are just a few - and many of the subsequent posts/threads and previous posts and threads have equally valuable information. This is why brash and I are arguing that it's not a case of "here's a post about Sansa that tells you everything you need to know" - every post contains valuable information and thoughtful analysis and it's only when you've read the threads as a cohesive whole that you can truly gain a more critical understanding of Sansa as a character. It's like the series - you can't just read Jon's POVs and expect to gain a thorough grounding in the storyline and subtext.

If you're really serious about learning more about Sansa - I really suggest that you go through a few of the PtP threads and really sit down and dig into them - they're a pleasure to read and it won't feel like "hard work" at all.

[brashcandy]

If getting people to understand Sansa is your goal, then I think actually providing concrete evidence of her development will do a lot more to sway people to your cause then telling people that they have not looked hard enough to understand her.

We do provide concrete evidence (or try to) every time we get into these discussions though. A referral to the PTP threads is precisely so readers can engage in a more in depth manner, and see the different arguments from other members which can be important in helping to refine one's opinion. A cheat sheet would be convenient, but it's more appropriate for those who already have an understanding and appreciation of Sansa's arc and want to access quick answers and references. For those who hold similar views expressed by manting, I think there's a need for a comprehensive re-read.

[nirolo]

how has she outplayed Littlefinger? I dont see it. He has her whisked from KL without her EVEN KNOWING that it was him pulling Dontos's strings. He and the Queen of Thorns use her to kill Geoffrey and place the blame on her and the dwarf. She is presently wanted for REGICIDE. She figures none of this out. She doesnt even know that littlefinger wants her sexually. She is a pawn that he moves around at will and she is oblivious to it. Her big decisions at the Eryie are what clothes to wear and worrying about the color (she decides against a dress because it looks too Arryn.) I not saying she doesnt have moments, but those moments are during someone else's plots and machinations which involve her and that she is oblivous to. Is she gradually growing up? Yes. Is she as smart as Margery? not by a long shot.

You also didnt reply to my point about her stupidity. The I want to marry loras thing with the Queen of Thorns.

Again she is the most unstark of all the starks - the most meek - I believe this is due/tied to the fact that she is the only one to outlive her wolf. She lacks personal agency - she is the only stark like this.

As for Arya getting captured - she would not have been captured except by her own choice. I meant that the guards and Varys's little birds could not find her. Pretty impressive for a nine year old. Which is why I find Arya much more interesting and entertaining than Sansa.

We will soon discover how smart and how much agency she truly has after the "mad mouse" carries her off for the reward. How will she escape?

I think you need to read the PtP threads - they give a much clearer explanation of Sansa's character arc than I can in a single post or even multiple posts. Calling a character "stupid" for attempting to believe that there is still some hope of an escape from what she must see as a fairly hopeless situation is ridiculous. Also it's important to remember that Ser Barristan has already been dismissed from the KG when KG tradition was that they serve for life. To quote the series "neither death nor lordship seems to mean quite what they used to" not to mention KG traditions.

Couldn't have said it better myself~

http://asoiaf.wester...x/#entry3496620

brief summary on why a SanSan marriage isn't as socially unacceptable and unfeasible as some posters make it out to be

http://asoiaf.wester...x/#entry3498253

http://asoiaf.wester...x/#entry3498156

http://asoiaf.wester...x/#entry3497036

These are just a few - and many of the subsequent posts/threads and previous posts and threads have equally valuable information. This is why brash and I are arguing that it's not a case of "here's a post about Sansa that tells you everything you need to know" - every post contains valuable information and thoughtful analysis and it's only when you've read the threads as a cohesive whole that you can truly gain a more critical understanding of Sansa as a character. It's like the series - you can't just read Jon's POVs and expect to gain a thorough grounding in the storyline and subtext.

If you're really serious about learning more about Sansa - I really suggest that you go through a few of the PtP threads and really sit down and dig into them - they're a pleasure to read and it won't feel like "hard work" at all.

Wait. None of the posts you have inked show how Sansa has and will eventually outfox LF. Or am I missing something?

[Lala]

Wait. None of the posts you have inked show how Sansa has and will eventually outfox LF. Or am I missing something?

I took your request as one asking for posts that provide a better understanding of Sansa as a character, not specifically evidence that she is successfully playing LF's game and keeping her true intentions hidden from him. Since I was mistaken in your wish to gain a more thorough and critical understanding of Sansa's character as a cohesive whole, here is a relevant post from the Rereading Sansa threads:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/64491-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa-vi/page__st__280#entry3154078

I still highly recommend that you look up these threads and read them for yourself - they're well written, thoughtful, and organized, and it's frustrating that you're simply asking other posters to do your research for you.

[brashcandy]

Wait. None of the posts you have inked show how Sansa has and will eventually outfox LF. Or am I missing something?

I suspect you are trying to be deliberately exasperating, Nirolo, but I'll play along for now. There is no magic answer to how Sansa will "outfox" LF. That is up to the writer. The only thing we can do is to examine her character growth and highlight the evidence which shows she's not as blinded by his deceit as some readers believe. How much credit you give to the evidence and the analysis provided is up to you. The most recent post that addresses Sansa and Littlefinger is Milady of York's Baelish vs. Stark. I hope you find it useful, and again, all the critical essays can be found in the resource section linked in the OP.

[Elaena Targaryen]

We do provide concrete evidence (or try to) every time we get into these discussions though. A referral to the PTP threads is precisely so readers can engage in a more in depth manner, and see the different arguments from other members which can be important in helping to refine one's opinion. A cheat sheet would be convenient, but it's more appropriate for those who already have an understanding and appreciation of Sansa's arc and want to access quick answers and references.

I agree, and btw thank you brashcady and the rest for the threads. I don't see what's so hard here. I don't think I've ever posted on a PTP thread but I read them from time to time, like when I just want to read something on the forum and can't find any current threads that are interesting I know I can pop in anywhere in PTP for a great reading experience. And if I wanted to delve in I would be welcomed, if anyone wants to jump in with questions or share thoughts they would receive kind responses.

For those who hold similar views expressed by manting, I think there's a need for a comprehensive re-read

I could not agree more!

[Lala]

We do provide concrete evidence (or try to) every time we get into these discussions though. A referral to the PTP threads is precisely so readers can engage in a more in depth manner, and see the different arguments from other members which can be important in helping to refine one's opinion. A cheat sheet would be convenient, but it's more appropriate for those who already have an understanding and appreciation of Sansa's arc and want to access quick answers and references. For those who hold similar views expressed by manting, I think there's a need for a comprehensive re-read.

We do provide concrete evidence (or try to) every time we get into these discussions though. A referral to the PTP threads is precisely so readers can engage in a more in depth manner, and see the different arguments from other members which can be important in helping to refine one's opinion. A cheat sheet would be convenient, but it's more appropriate for those who already have an understanding and appreciation of Sansa's arc and want to access quick answers and references. For those who hold similar views expressed by manting, I think there's a need for a comprehensive re-read.

Agreed!

I agree, and btw thank you brashcady and the rest for the threads. I don't see what's so hard here. I don't think I've ever posted on a PTP thread but I read them from time to time, like when I just want to read something on the forum and can't find any current threads that are interesting I know I can pop in anywhere in PTP for a great reading experience. And if I wanted to delve in I would be welcomed, if anyone wants to jump in with questions or share thoughts they would receive kind responses.

I could not agree more!

They are easily my favorite threads on this entire forum and I also gravitate back towards them whenever I want to read something truly thoughtful~

[nirolo]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82942-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xix/#entry4218374

We do provide concrete evidence (or try to) every time we get into these discussions though. A referral to the PTP threads is precisely so readers can engage in a more in depth manner, and see the different arguments from other members which can be important in helping to refine one's opinion. A cheat sheet would be convenient, but it's more appropriate for those who already have an understanding and appreciation of Sansa's arc and want to access quick answers and references. For those who hold similar views expressed by manting, I think there's a need for a comprehensive re-read.

I used to be someone like manting until I mustered enough courage to click on one of the PtP threads. So let's not discount him so readily. Luckily for me, the first post I read happened to be one written by Milady of York, here (never thought Sansa possessed the ability to cleanse someone, was a pleasant surprise to find out). Of course there are also the numerous pieces comparing and contrasting the Hound to the Beast that piqued my interest as well and the commentary on Sandor's swordsmanship by, again, Milady of York. I don't know if I would have kept on reading if I weren't already interested by these topics, and even then I wasn't able to keep up with everything. So I don't know how realistic it would be to ask people to simply read through everything that has ever been written in PtP.

Also, brashcandy, I'm sure you are tired of defending the same cyclical accusations hurled at Sansa. The same thing gets raised time and again. It is not all that different from the questions and debates that kept popping up in the L+R=J threads. That is until people decided to pull all the misconceptions together and provide them with short, concise disclaimers. I think it has helped to move the discussions forward in the LRJ threads. So why not do the same with Sansa? Pull all the false accusations thrown at her way together and give reasons to why they are false.

On a side note, do you have a good link to a post/s on why Sansa will fully realize her warging ability?

Did I just cause another thread derailment?

Sandor...right. I like him, I just don't think he would make a great partner until his soul is soothed. One might argue Sansa has put him on the right path, which, if true, is an accomplishment that could be attributed to Sansa.

There, back on topic.

[nirolo]

I suspect you are trying to be deliberately exasperating, Nirolo, but I'll play along for now. There is no magic answer to how Sansa will "outfox" LF. That is up to the writer. The only thing we can do is to examine her character growth and highlight the evidence which shows she's not as blinded by his deceit as some readers believe. How much credit you give to the evidence and the analysis provided is up to you. The most recent post that addresses Sansa and Littlefinger is Milady of York's Baelish vs. Stark. I hope you find it useful, and again, all the critical essays can be found in the resource section linked in the OP.

Thank you. I am not trying to be deliberately exasperating. Deliberately lazy? You might find me guilty of that. Again, thanks for the link.

[brashcandy]

Also, brashcandy, I'm sure you are tired of defending the same cyclical accusations hurled at Sansa. The same thing gets raised time and again. It is not all that different from the questions and debates that kept popping up in the L+R=J threads. That is until people decided to pull all the misconceptions together and provide them with short, concise disclaimers. I think it has helped to move the discussions forward in the LRJ threads. So why not do the same with Sansa? Pull all the false accusations thrown at her way together and give reasons to why they are false.

If you're talking about an FAQ then it's being worked on already :)

On a side note, do you have a good link to a post/s on why Sansa will fully realize her warging ability?

Off the top of my head, no. These discussions would have taken place over time as you'd appreciate and I can't think of one essay or post that addresses the different theories surrounding this specifically. You might find tze's post on Sansa/Jon (resource 8) to be provocative, and most members agree that Bran will be instrumental in helping her to realise this potential if there's a heart tree at the Gates of the Moon. Peruse the resources though - you might come across sometime I don't remember right now.

[nirolo]

If you're talking about an FAQ then it's being worked on already :)

I'm a little surprised that it's taking this long :P considering the tour de force that is the PtP.

So when it's completed, where can people expect to find it?

[brashcandy]

I'm a little surprised that it's taking this long :P considering the tour de force that is the PtP.

So when it's completed, where can people expect to find it?

In the PTP :)

[manting]

"I think you need to read the PtP threads - they give a much clearer explanation of Sansa's character arc than I can in a single post or even multiple posts. Calling a character "stupid" for attempting to believe that there is still some hope of an escape from what she must see as a fairly hopeless situation is ridiculous. Also it's important to remember that Ser Barristan has already been dismissed from the KG when KG tradition was that they serve for life. To quote the series "neither death nor lordship seems to mean quite what they used to" not to mention KG traditions."

That's your answer? She and everyone else know that the Kingsguard cannot marry and yet your reasoning is Barristans dismissal lead her to believe that she could marry Loras. That is weaker than clock radio speakers. How is it ridiculous to say that Martins clear intent in that scene is to make her look stupid, naïve, childish and willful. She knows that Loras is off the table but she still clings to a childs dream that was spawned by Loras giving her that rose. If you remember Loras doesn't even recall it happening when she brings it up You also say "I don't think it's necessary to redirect him to any one post since it's obvious that he hasn't given Sansa's character much thought at all." Really? Because I have a different opinion than you about a character than I haven't given that character much thought? You haven't even refuted with any degree of certainty any of the points I made. There are no quotes from the book in your responses that refute one thing I have written. Except the age thing. She is 13 not 15. Sansa is manipulated by everyone she meets and never even realizes it. Cersie manipulates her and she goes running to her to tell her all her fathers plans. Geoffrey manipulates to the point she lies to the king and fucks her own sister over, which in turn gets Lady killed. even after this she still trusts the Queen and Geoffrey. Margery manipulates her with friendship in order to get her brother the prize of marrying the supposed heir to Winterfell and to gather information on Geoffrey. Petyr manipulates her into escaping kings landing (through Dontos), uses her to provide the poison for Geoffrey, gets her accused of regicide (there was no reason for this - he could have snuck her out the night before the wedding) and then uses her to tie himself to the heir of the Vale of Arryn. Dontos manipulates her into thnking he is really there to help when in reality he is just after the money. Please refute ANY of that. She is a pawn. Has she grown as a character? Yes. Is she still a pawn? Yes. Has she shown some stark moxie? Yes. As much as any other Stark child? Hell no. We will see her mettle when the mad mouse abducts her.

[manting]

For those who hold similar views expressed by manting, I think there's a need for a comprehensive re-read Really? I hold different views than you so I need to reread the books? The arrogance, but I guess that's the internet for you. Really good job refuting my points though.

[manting]

In the PtP which was posted specifically about what I was talking about I find reinforcement for my points not refutation. The best part is the quote from BrashCandy: "Is this the final break in being a pawn? When you treat others as pawns yourself." Um I think that sums it up nicely. Maybe YOU should reread the books or at least the things you have written about them

[Le Cygne]

So, wading past the usual Sansa is stupid and Sandor is evil posts, maybe we can talk about the fun stuff again.

What I want to know is how fast Myranda will get Sansa to spill the beans about the unkiss. I think that's being set up in Sansa's last chapter.

She thinks about kissing Sandor:

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

Then Myranda asks about the marriage bed and she remembers how he'd kissed her. Then this:

“We all know how devoted he was to Lady Lysa,” said Myranda, “but he cannot mourn forever. He needs a pretty young wife to wash away his grief. I imagine he could have his pick of half the noble maidens in the Vale. Who could be a better husband than our own bold Lord Protector? Though I do wish he had a better name than Littlefinger. How little is it, do you know?”

“His finger?” She blushed again. “I don’t … I never …”

Lady Myranda laughed so loud that Mya Stone glanced back at them. “Never you mind, Alayne, I’m sure it’s large enough.”

So that quote about Sandor's fingers tilting Sansa's face up when he thinks about kissing her at the end of the serpentine scene, she's totally going to say something about how big he is, calling it now.

And this part, Sansa when she's matchmaking for Lothar and Mya:

“Do you think Ser Lothor likes her as she is, in mail and leather?” she asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. “Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?”

“He’s a man. He dreams of her naked.”

Is a giveaway, too.

And the pillow tax:

“Usually when ladies share my bed they have to pay a pillow tax and tell me all about the wicked things they’ve done.”

“What if they haven’t done any wicked things?”

“Why, then they must confess all the wicked things they want to do.”

So I figure maybe not that night, but the next, we'll get to hear what Myranda thinks about the Hound.

[Lala]

So, wading past the usual Sansa is stupid and Sandor is evil posts, maybe we can talk about the fun stuff again.

What I want to know is how fast Myranda will get Sansa to spill the beans about the unkiss. I think that's being set up in Sansa's last chapter.

She thinks about kissing Sandor:

Then Myranda asks about the marriage bed and she remembers how he'd kissed her. Then this:

So that quote about Sandor's fingers tilting Sansa's face up when he thinks about kissing her at the end of the serpentine scene, she's totally going to say something about how big he is, calling it now.

And this part, Sansa when she's matchmaking for Lothar and Mya:

Is a giveaway, too.

And the pillow tax:

So I figure maybe not that night, but the next, we'll get to hear what Myranda thinks about the Hound.

Yes let's~ I'm tired of it.

I feel like Myranda, if she hears about it, is more likely to be supportive of Sansa and her desires - she seems like the kind of woman who is very unashamed of her own desires, which is pretty awesome!

I do question whether Sansa will tell her about Sandor, or at least, whether she will name Sandor - if she tells Myranda "I kissed Sandor/The Hound" it's like a dead giveaway that she came from KL and was close to the royal family - otherwise, how would you have interacted with a former KG? It might be a little too risky~

[manting]

Haha. Have a nice night.

[Le Cygne]

Yes let's~ I'm tired of it.

I feel like Myranda, if she hears about it, is more likely to be supportive of Sansa and her desires - she seems like the kind of woman who is very unashamed of her own desires, which is pretty awesome!

I do question whether Sansa will tell her about Sandor, or at least, whether she will name Sandor - if she tells Myranda "I kissed Sandor/The Hound" it's like a dead giveaway that she came from KL and was close to the royal family - otherwise, how would you have interacted with a former KG? It might be a little too risky~

Probably she'll be cagey about it, but Myranda will guess. More of those references in Dunk and Egg, too:

"You have large feet", she observed. "Large hands as well. I think you must be large all over."

[Lala]

Probably she'll be cagey about it, but Myranda will guess. More of those references in Dunk and Egg, too:

That's interesting. It does seem as if there's a subconscious juxtaposition of LF and Sandor in Sansa's mind? It's LF she kisses "dutifully" but Sandor she imagines kissing. If you connect the "size" issue - well LF is littlefinger and Sandor is quite large ... :blushing:

ETA: maybe if LF's creepy factor escalates, we'll see more hints from Sansa?