Crackpot: Bran has already saved Jon? (ACoK/ADwD)

[Daecon Dayne]

Couldn't find a thread.

I'm currently rereading ACoK, and one of Jon's later chapters (the penultimate, I think) got me wandering down the rabbit-hole a bit. It seems quite heavily-implied that Bran is the one to first awaken Jon's abilities as a warg - or at least activates his third eye (I'm assuming these two things are slightly different). There's also a couple of things which prompt me to ludicrously speculate that Bran is doing something extremely important by opening Jon's third eye. It seems like wee Bran is trying to alter Jon's fate/prepare him/give him the means to survive his assault, I'm not sure. That's why I'm calling this whole thing crackpot - and, believe me, some of will just sound ridiculous (the time-travelling aspects, namely).

I believe it is the first time Jon experiences a wolf-dream (correct away if not), and shortly into it, a voice starts communing with him ("Jon?", 560). Jon then:

"search[es] for his brother [...] but there was nothing, only... A weirwood [...] no more than a sapling, yet was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as it reached for the sky [...] Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents [...] something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death [...]

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eye. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow". - ACoK, Voyager paperback, 2003, 559-560.

Jon - via Ghost - then discovers Mance's "whole people come together"; he witnesses the massed wildling forces and their camp.

Some of the points in this passage can be explained without resorting to speculation as to Bran's (potentially) upcoming weirnet time-travelling adventures:

1. Bran likes it "in the dark", where "No one can see you" - he's currently hiding in the crypts of Winterfell, remaining shrouded from the ironborn currently stationed in Winterfell, so - if you hadn't already read ADwD - this is relatively easy to make sense of.
   
   
2. It would be strange either - if you hadn't read ADwD - in assuming that Theon might've somehow got to Bran and Rickon already, killing them 'off-screen'. (Theon's conversation with Reek ;) in the previous chapter somewhat suspicious, but you're led to believe that they're basically back on the trail of locating the Stark lads. Thus, the "terrible" smell of death might be attributed to some indication that Bran is dead, or about to die.
   
   
3. The mention of the crow, opening one's third eye and so on are, again, quite easy to dismiss on a first read; I imagine I myself probably just concluded "yeah, Bran's already encountered the crow and opened his third eye", without going too far down into the labyrinth of the crackpot maze.
   

But, speaking of crackpot...

1. The weirwood "growing as he watched" might be Bran (bear with me...) transcending different times quite literally, taking Jon back to when the sapling grew, rapidly spanning the period of its growth; this might just be how it appears to other people when somebody contacts them - or tries to - from the future. Or, it might just simply be a metaphor for Bran being older and more developed (as a greenseer), and thus his presentation as a weirwood is rapidly developing to represent how ahead of the curve he is than the other Starks and their abilities. Or, y'know, he is just straight-up time-travelling like a god. IDK, mightn't be either.
   
   
2. As Jon/Ghost sniffs the weirwood, he detects the scent of death. He snarls at Bran/the weirwood, but Bran tried to soothe him ("Don't be afraid"). Bran is coming across as pretty collected and 'with it' here as far as I'm concerned. He seems massively more confident and calm with regard to his abilities/things in general, which I find hard to imagine to be a trait belonging to his current self at this point in the novel - he's in hiding and fearing for his life, yet he's cool enough to try and soothe Jon. Again, I hate to delve into a bunch of time-travel malarkey, but it really seems like a wiser Bran speaking here, one who's communicating with Jon despite being intrinsically not-of-the-time. IDK, but this seems peculiar.
   
   
3. I think during this exchange Bran's already in Bloodraven's/the CotF's cave: "Don't be afraid [that I'm basically projecting myself into your dream], I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them." It doesn't seem entirely far-fetched that the darkness Bran is indeed due to the fact that he's in BR's cave at that time - it's dark, and it's here where he first (consciously) experiences what it's like to float around in the past and 'see everyone'.
   

What's more, in the final chapter of ACoK, in Bran's POV, we read how:

"The dark place was pulling at him by then, the house of whispers where all men were blind. He could feel its cold fingers on him. The stony smell of it was a whisper up the nose. He struggled against the pull. He did not like the darkness [...] I will not go, he cried. I am wolf, I will not go. Yet even so the darkness thickened, until it covered his eyes and filled his nose and stopped his ears [...] and all was black and still and black and cold and black and dead and black.

"Bran," a voice was whispering softly. "Bran, come back. Come back now. Bran. Bran..." - 700.

1. Here, it seems as though something's definitely happening to Bran which he can't control. Wait for it... I think Bran might be experiencing some crazy time-warp shit: feeling "cold fingers" might be a memory of Coldhands; the "stony smell" might be the cave; and, I'm pretty hazy on this, but isn't Bloodraven at least partially blind or something too ("all men were blind")? Bran, Jojen and Meera aren't technically 'men', nor are tCotf. Hodor kind of disrupts this notion, though. The alleged giant's blood, or him being a "halfwit" might be argued to fortify this theory, but I'm not sure I dare try to justify a wacky theory with notions of a developmentally-challenged man not being a 'man'. Conversely, however, perhaps Hodor is in fact the "blind" man, as he hasn't opened his third eye? That we know of, at least... :eek:
   
   
2. The "black and still and black and cold and black and dead and black" quote is curious. The repetition of black interchanged with three other 'states', let's say, could possibly be an allusion to the NW, and Jon slowly dying? There is a multitude of "black" present (a multitude of black brothers?) as we are presented with "still", "cold", and "dead". Jon being stabbed by the NW, the life slowly leaving him, eventually dying? Edit: note the smell of death which Jon/Ghost detects as they sniff at the weirwood/Bran.
   
   
3. "Bran, come back" might be Jon talking, BR, Jojen - I really don't know. I'm super tired.
   

In short: I think that a not-of-the-time Bran (I really don't want to say :thumbsup: FUTURE BRAN :thumbsup:) is actively seeking Jon, so that he can amp up his warging capabilities, maybe because Bran's already 'seen' Jon's 'death', and decided to go back and give him the utilities to survive his assault (i.e warging into Ghost more effectively)? Can Bran interact with people through the weirnet? Is this a possibility for him to learn how in the events of TWoW? Can BR do it? (Seems as though he can interact with people through various means).

Apologies that the post is pretty disorganised, and the round-off at the end is shoddy, but I'm ridiculously tired. I'll update it tomorrow.

[Steve Moss II]

Actually, I appreciate the analysis. Good job. Especially pointing out the timing of Bran helping Jon open his third eye.

[SolFreer]

Wow, I like this!

At some points I think you make unnecessary assumptions though and I think you read too far into the "all men are blind" quote, but the idea of Bran talking to Jon through his dream from the future has undeniably sound evidence. That quote is brilliant! Never seen anyone pick up on this.

I think that we can rule out that the Bran in the dream was of the present because of him being presented as part-weirwood, while Bran was only a warg at the time of aCoK. The dream indicates that Bran has started eating weirwood paste and seeds and is now 'one' with the trees, I think. Hence, I think this affirms your belief that he is from the future.

Further, I think the smell of death that Jon/Ghost smells could well be Jojen's body in the cave (RE: Jojen Paste theory).

[Juan_Snow]

I think you're on to something here especially the first part.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

What if the final Jon chapter of ADWD is actually Bran looking through Jon's POV?! DUN DUN DUN

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Cool theory. Maybe the smell of death is also the sacrifices that have been made at Weirwood trees. It could be Jojen paste as stated above. Maybe a warning of whatever nightmarish event is taking place at Hardhome. "Dead things in the water".

[binga]

Perhaps, but I am certainly troubled by the incident. It is incredibly creepy symbolism whether or not Bran is speaking from the future. Bran may have the darkest storyline out of all the characters if Jojen Paste is true. :(

[Nuncle Kraken]

I believe it's Bran from after meeting BR. I think the "where all men are blind" refers to the CotF cave where humans can't see without fire. The smell of death could be the fact that the cave is littered with bones as well as BR's half rotted corpse body fertilizing the tree.

[Pod The Impaler]

What's more, in the final chapter of ACoK, in Bran's POV, we read how:

"The dark place was pulling at him by then, the house of whispers where all men were blind. He could feel its cold fingers on him. The stony smell of it was a whisper up the nose. He struggled against the pull. He did not like the darkness [...] I will not go, he cried. I am wolf, I will not go. Yet even so the darkness thickened, until it covered his eyes and filled his nose and stopped his ears [...] and all was black and still and black and cold and black and dead and black.

"Bran," a voice was whispering softly. "Bran, come back. Come back now. Bran. Bran..." - 700.

1. Here, it seems as though something's definitely happening to Bran which he can't control. Wait for it... I think Bran might be experiencing some crazy time-warp shit: feeling "cold fingers" might be a memory of Coldhands; the "stony smell" might be the cave; and, I'm pretty hazy on this, but isn't Bloodraven at least partially blind or something too ("all men were blind")? Bran, Jojen and Meera aren't technically 'men', nor are tCotf. Hodor kind of disrupts this notion, though. The alleged giant's blood, or him being a "halfwit" might be argued to fortify this theory, but I'm not sure I dare try to justify a wacky theory with notions of a developmentally-challenged man not being a 'man'. Conversely, however, perhaps Hodor is in fact the "blind" man, as he hasn't opened his third eye?
   

It may be a double reference, because who else is in a house of whispers, where "all men" are blind ? Arya, at the House of Black and White - experiencing darkness, blindness, "whispers" (symbolic of spying), and all around her is an atmosphere of death. It is also while in Braavos that her wolf dreams "graduate" into the actual deliberate warging of animals. Maybe her third eye might be opening too, and Bran can see it.

[Prince of the Green]

It may be a double reference, because who else is in a house of whispers, where "all men" are blind ? Arya, at the House of Black and White - experiencing darkness, blindness, "whispers" (symbolic of spying), and all around her is an atmosphere of death. It is also while in Braavos that her wolf dreams "graduate" into the actual deliberate warging of animals. Maybe her third eye might be opening too, and Bran can see it.

That's a definite possibility as well. The Stark children were all very close to Bran, not one of them having a bad or annoyed emotion in response to him. The same couldn't be said of the different pairs available (Arya/Sansa, Sansa/Jon come to mind).

It is my belief, however, that Jon was the second to warg, perhaps the first to see through his wolf's eyes. I truly believe the mutual sound of distress shared by both 'Summer' and Bran as Bran held him there in the snow and heard Theon's murderous intent was the true instance of warging in the series. Neither wanted to part from the other's company. If indeed Bran did enable Jon to warg Ghost actively, then it's the second instance of a child of a Stark seeing through the eyes of his or her respective wolf in the series.

EFC: Edited For Clarity

[AcornPaste]

I don't think this one is very crazy. Bran can obviously see to the past now. GRRM would have known this already at the time of writing this passage, even if Bran did not. Theon hears the trees whispering to him at one point, showing that (probably) Bran learns to communicate. So x + y = yeah, Bran probably talked to Jon from the future. It is probably easier for Jon to be receptive of the communication than Theon was, due to his ability to warg.

[The Dragon has three heads]

I'd say the fact bran can and does transcend time is very very possible ie-bran IS bran the builder, he IS the boy who helped build storms end.

Etc

[direwienerdog]

I need to retread a little more for context . But this is well presented. The fact that BR says Bran can't communicate with those in the past nor change things, doesn't mean he can't mess with someone as close a Jon in the future.

[Brownwind]

I agree with this theory

I also think it reasonable that WeirBarn would be able to reach Jon Snow first given the connections of Warginess and Wolf.

GRRM likes unreliable narrators and I suspect that from the moment Bran ate "Paste" nothing described as a dream from john's or arya's pov should be taken as "T"ruth

[Arya Waters]

I thought that it was an accepted fact that Bran was with cotf in the cave when he opened Jon's third eye, you know, with him being a tree and all. We already know he can interact with others from the past- Ned hearing him in the Gods wood- even though he was discouraged from doing this at the time. I thought the mystery was why they didn't want him to, what would be the advantages, disadvantages, etc.

[Arya Waters]

It may be a double reference, because who else is in a house of whispers, where "all men" are blind ? Arya, at the House of Black and White - experiencing darkness, blindness, "whispers" (symbolic of spying), and all around her is an atmosphere of death. It is also while in Braavos that her wolf dreams "graduate" into the actual deliberate warging of animals. Maybe her third eye might be opening too, and Bran can see it.

Yes. I think this too. I think Bran will eventually help, guide, or make himself known to all his living siblings (or maybe Robb, too, but because we lacked his POV we wouldn't know at this point? Sorry, speculation causes all sorts of circular thoughts).

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

You lost me a little near the end there, but on the whole a solid theory. BR specifically tells Bran that he won't be able to effect the past through the weirnet, but I think he's wrong. Just because he can't doesnt mean Bran can't. For all we know this could be a wizened old Bran a hundred years from now who has mastered abilities BR never was able to do. I think the last quarter of adwd shows bran is already becoming very skilled. He manages to get theon's attention in wf's godswood to the point that theon is conviced the old gods were trying to talk to him, and I believe he also is the one who makes mormont's raven say "jon snow" in jon's last pov.

However, in this specific instance it may simply be BR facilitating a communication between jon and bran with no time travel involved.

[Dragon Roast]

I think Bran is reaching out to all his siblings. And I think he is trying to reach them in the past and the present. (Time is different for a tree and a greenseer). Ned felt him. And Bran has actively reached out to Theon and changed his story arc.

Of his siblings (and their wolves), I think Rickon/shaggydog are easy for him to reach. If Rickon had a POV I suspect that he would feel that being in touch with Bran is just normal.

The passage that cited by the OP is makes it clear that Bran is reaching out to Jon/Ghost as well. In the ADWD prologue we learned that when a skinchanger's body is killed and they enter their animal that they will eventually loose themselves in that transition. I think Bran will help Jon remain Jon while he waits to be reunited with his Body and/or moves to his next phase (whatever it might be).

I have a sense that he has reached back to his sisters as well. When Arya is weak at Harrenhall she goes to the godswood and prays. A wolf howls in answer (emphasis added):

It was hard not to hit him when he said that. "I hope your princess dies " she said, and ran off before he could grab her. In the godswood she found her broomstick sword where she had left it, and carried it to the heart tree. There she knelt. Red leaves rustled. Red eyes peered inside her. The eyes of the gods. "Tell me what to do, you gods," she prayed.

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.

"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."

"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.

So who said that to Arya? A memory of something her father said? Perhaps. Or this could have been Bran reaching out with knowledge he learned from his father as Ned prayed in the godswood. Sure, by the end of ADWD, Arya is across the Narrow Sea, but I kinda expect that Bran will reach out to her more in her wolf dreams (and perhaps more directly).

And then there is Sansa. During a snow she went into the godswood of the Eyrie. She thought of Winterfell and blacked out:

The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence, and lay thick and unbroken on the ground. All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover's kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day. It was the old days she hungered for. Prayed for. But who could she pray to? The garden had been meant for a godswood once, she knew, but the soil was too thin and stony for a weirwood to take root. A godswood without gods, as empty as me.

She scooped up a handful of snow and squeezed it between her fingers. Heavy and wet, the snow packed easily. Sansa began to make snowballs, shaping and smoothing them until they were round and white and perfect. She remembered a summer's snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning.

And then she was compelled to build Winterfell out of snow. Was that completely on her own? Or was Bran reaching out to her as well.

The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. I think Bran is getting the pack back together. And then it will be a time for wolves...

[Corgi Targaryen]

Its an awesome idea, great points. The only issue I have is that iirc bran says in his next chapter in acok that he had even connected to jon. So unless future bran amd present bran have the same thoughts, future bran did not connect with jon. Sorry to crack your pot :(

[Twookus Stark]

Yeah this is good it also sets more groundwork for jon warging into ghost maybe even a coldhands type revival