The Targ fire RESISTANCE debate...

[TheMysteriousOne]

Why? That's the description of dragons in the series. Anything else is just speculation. Danys dragons aren't so small in ADWD and they still describe them like that.

Dany's dragons are still pretty small, as they are only about two years old and only Drogon is big enough to bear Dany, who is a fairly small person. That's the description of Dany's dragons and even she admits that they were pretty small. If Balerion was large enough to swallow a mammoth whole, then logically such a beast's abdomen would be large enough to accommodate that.

[TheMysteriousOne]

The thing is that we have had these discussions dozens, if not hundreds, of times, and we always hear the same arguments.

[Lala]

The thing is that we have had these discussions dozens, if not hundreds, of times, and we always hear the same arguments.

This.

And I've only been on the forums for ... a week or so? And I've already read threads like this multiple times.

[Stannis Lives]

This.

And I've only been on the forums for ... a week or so? And I've already read threads like this multiple times.

Doesn't make it wrong.

[Mr Hodor]

If i recall correctly GRRM only said that all Targaryens are not immune to all fire at all times. If someone has some quote from GRRM please share.

This can also be seen as some Targaryens are resistant to fire (not immune but resistant). Dany's hot bath, Egg not sweating etc.

[E-Ro]

Haven't read the the thread, only the title. But didn't the author say targs aren't immune to fire? Idk if anyone bought that up yet.

[Muggle]

What exactly do you think is happening in this thread if it's not discussion?

nothing,

but the general bm, and mockery is just disappointing

you can come up with a counter argument with out being rude............ A lot of older members seem for forget this is my point.

[redviper9]

Haven't read the the thread, only the title. But didn't the author say targs aren't immune to fire? Idk if anyone bought that up yet.

You raise a valid point, as always. In fact:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/

[Mr Hodor]

Haven't read the the thread, only the title. But didn't the author say targs aren't immune to fire? Idk if anyone bought that up yet.

I did, a few posts back. But people are enjoying the debate on what should or shouldn't be discussed in the forums.

[redviper9]

Haven't read the the thread, only the title. But didn't the author say targs aren't immune to fire? Idk if anyone bought that up yet.

Also this, about three quarters of the way down the page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Meta discussions about how aggressively people here do or not behave is off topic and distracting.

Take it to PM and leave the thread to the topic.

Further, it is only an old topic if you have discussed it before. If a new poster puts up a theory that has been discussed before, just link them to an old thread and leave it at that.

As always, be polite.

[/MOD]

[E-Ro]

You raise a valid point, as always. In fact:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/

Also this, about three quarters of the way down the page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

Thanks a mil brah.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

I really don't get the confusion here, but still I made a helpful picture to help you understand.

https://lh5.googleus...f_harrenhal.jpg

Furnace wind = hot breath. Not fire. Quentyn noticed the "furnace wind" before he was burned to death. This has been brought up and clarified so many times.

The confusion, I think, stems from the fact that your picture is not accurate. Balerion did not melt Harrenhal from the outside. He melted it from the inside. And he was not flying. He was sitting on the ground. This is from the World of Ice and Fire reading:

Aegon climbed onto Balerion and flew high into the sky. He descended with great speed and landed behind the walls. Balerion unleashed his fire. Stone may not burn but wood, thatch, and MEN did. Stone did crack, though, and the great towers soon looked like candles. Harren and his line did indeed end. Swords, blackened and bent were sent by cartloads to the Landing.

Note that the men who were present (save for Aegon himself) burned, stone cracked and the towers ran like wax.

And if you read Arya's description of Harrenhal, there is a courtyard surrounded by five towers. All the towers were melted. So Aegon sat on Balerion's back in the courtyard while Balerion's breath literally melted all the stone in a 360 radius around them. The result was that the stone "melted and flowed like candlewax down the steps and in the windows, glowing a sullen searing red as it sought out Harren where he hid."

As for the "furnace wind," I'll just point out again that Balerion's "furnace breath" melted the Iron Throne (note: it does not say "furnace breath followed by fire"); Rhaegal's "furnace wind" roasted Quentyn (there is no mention of anyone breathing fire after Quentyn felt the furnace wind; Quentyn felt the furnace wind and he caught on fire); but Drogon's "furnace wind engulfed her [Daenerys]" but it did not burn her.

The reason Daenerys' clothes were in tatters but not completely burned away is that her body provided partial protection. Right before the furnace wind engulfs her, it says "She stumbled over the pitmaster's corpse and fell on her backside." If you fall over backwards like that, your legs (and probably your arms) are going to be in front of you, partially shielding you from whatever is approaching you from the front.

Finally, as I have pointed out before, there is a reason Rhaegal's furnace wind burned Quentyn's whip but Drogon's furnace wind did not burn Daenerys' whip: Quentyn was holding his whip out between himself and Rhaegal when Rhaegal blasted him; Daenerys did not pick up her whip until well after Drogon stopped breathing fire on her.

[Roadside Rose]

I was just thinking about this, and suddenly it struck me - Jorah gave Dany these books on dragons on the eve of her wedding.

Daenerys reflecting on the book Jorah gives her,

Dragons are fire made flesh. She had read that in one of the books Ser Jorah had given her as a wedding gift.

So what if Dany knew exactly what she had to do at the pyre. She could have read it in the books. The pyre ritual was something she learnt through the books.

I think Dany knew exactly what would happen when she stepped into that pyre.

[Lala]

I was just thinking about this, and suddenly it struck me - Jorah gave Dany these books on dragons on the eve of her wedding.

Daenerys reflecting on the book Jorah gives her,

So what if Dany knew exactly what she had to do at the pyre. She could have read it in the books. The pyre ritual was something she learnt through the books.

I think Dany knew exactly what would happen when she stepped into that pyre.

She has also had prophetic dreams about the event one of which I mention here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/92885-khaleesi-to-mhysa-a-daenerys-re-read/#entry4752113 <-- shameless advertisement because I really need people to help me with the reread posts :crying:

So the outcome certainly wasn't a complete surprise to Dany and I think she was also aware, at least on some level, that it was a one-time miraculous event.

[Dragonfish]

Rhaegal's "furnace wind" roasted Quentyn (there is no mention of anyone breathing fire after Quentyn felt the furnace wind; Quentyn felt the furnace wind and he caught on fire);

I think you're misreading this. Quentyn doesn't even notice that he's on fire at first, while he does notice (and feel) the "furnace wind." This implies that the two events (the "furnace wind" and fire breath) are separate and sequential. No, the author does not explicitly state that the wind was followed by the fire, but this is for reasons of style. He wants to hide from the reader that Quentyn has been burned until Quentyn realizes it himself. It's an evocative and chilling scene, but it'd be short-changed if the "furnace wind" was intended to be the fire all along.

but Drogon's "furnace wind engulfed her [Daenerys]" but it did not burn her.

It did not burn her because it was not fire. If it was, then she wouldn't fear that Drogon was about to burn her just a few sentences later, as I pointed out in the R+L=J thread.

The reason Daenerys' clothes were in tatters but not completely burned away is that her body provided partial protection. Right before the furnace wind engulfs her, it says "She stumbled over the pitmaster's corpse and fell on her backside." If you fall over backwards like that, your legs (and probably your arms) are going to be in front of you, partially shielding you from whatever is approaching you from the front.

I'm having a hard time imaging how her harms and legs end up in front of her (especially her arms; wouldn't she have placed them behind her or to her side in order to break her fall?), and an even harder time imagining how they're supposed to provide enough protection to her clothes that they manage to stay on her body. Especially when you consider that the fire isn't simply going to go in the direction that Drogon breathes it in, but will spread to other places on her body.

[Roadside Rose]

Let's look at something else. In ACOK, Sandor came to Sansa's room. Stuff happened, but they didn't kiss. In AFFC, Sansa tells us several times that they did kiss. Do we believe her because she says so? Or look at Mel's leeches. She says king's blood and the power of Stannis' voice killed three kings. Do we believe her just because she said so or look at the obvious problems in her claim to see that she's using a trick?

Outside of the pyre event (which was obviously miraculous and magical), Dany is the only one telling us she cannot be burned or fall ill. The rest of the text is telling us she and her bloodlines do not have these magical abilities.

This is very interesting. There have been characters in the book that I believe are unreliable narrators...now Dany is increasingly appearing unreliable.

Her POV makes it look like she is fire-proof.

Though I really want to watch her attempt it again.

Q. Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?

George_RR_Martin Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

Q. Revanshe So she won't be able to do it again?

George_RR_Martin Probably not.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This is very interesting. There have been characters in the book that I believe are unreliable narrators...now Dany is increasingly appearing unreliable.

Her POV makes it look like she is fire-proof.

Though I really want to watch her attempt it again.

who is granny?

[Roadside Rose]

who is granny?

huh?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

There are a lot of people who would disagree. I'd cite the quotes from the books but they've already been quoted so many times in this thread. Mostly it's the last few Dany chapters in a Dance with Dragons.

Without the interview of Martin saying the funeral pyre was a one time event, how is a reader supposed to know that? If you use purely the text, where Dany thinks she's immune/highly resistant to fire, and then she actually walks into the fire and comes out unscathed with some baby dragons, what else are you supposed to think?

Many people that are newer to the series didn't even realize these SSM's existed until recently, and certainly haven't had time to read them all, and the text gives a very different impression, which appears to at minimum muddle the issue, and at other times flat out state it as if it's fact. It's hard to disregard the funeral pyre scene which we actually see the results of it on page. It's like telling us the character looks into the sky, and it's blue, and then the author then comes around and says in an interview, well no, it's actually green, except for that one magical time that it was really blue, but the character is color blind, so the evidence of it being confirmed that one time was just a red herring! haha! gotcha!

On my first read, I never assumed that all Targaryens were fireproof, or even heavily fire resistant, but I certainly believed Dany was.a special case.

Sometimes I wonder if Martin didn't originally plan things similar to this that he later changed his mind on (perhaps talked out of it by readers who thought it was too fantastical). Much like Tyrion being acrobatic in GoT, and then hobbling around, barely able to climb stairs later.