Hypothetical question regarding Robb's Will

[hardhome]

What were the actual words of Robb's will? Many people believe J=R+L. Many people believe that the will left Jon heir to the North. But what if it was worded something like, "I legitimize the bastard Jon Snow as his father's son and name him king upon my death." We know what he obviously meant but what would be the practical implications of this?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

how about "I legitimise Jon Snow and named him my heir until a son born to me?

[Frozentree]

Do we really know the letter explicitly named Jon the heir? I was under impression it merely legitimized him, which would make him the heir by default, if he really is Robb's younger brother (funny thing is that if R+L=J is false, this legitimization would still put Jon above Bran and Rickon, unless he stays in the NW which I believe he will no matter what happens anyway)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Do we really know the letter explicitly named Jon the heir? I was under impression it merely legitimized him, which would make him the heir by default, if he really is Robb's younger brother (funny thing is that if R+L=J is false, this legitimization would still put Jon above Bran and Rickon, unless he stays in the NW which I believe he will no matter what happens anyway)

yes according to app he names him his heir

[325504503]

yes according to app he names him his heir

Sorry, I am new here... what is this "app" you speak of?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Sorry, I am new here... what is this "app" you speak of?

the song of ice and fire app for iphones, ipads etc...

[Frozentree]

yes according to app he names him his heir

Good to know, not that it matters anyway, as Jon will die a crow

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Good to know, not that it matters anyway, as Jon will die a crow

oh will he?

[hardhome]

You all seem to misunderstand the question. Naming Jon Snow his FATHER'S legitimate son would make him (if J =R+L) Jon Targaryen. that would make him king not only of the North but of Westros. (maybe) But Robb admitted he held no claim South of the Riverlands.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

You all seem to misunderstand the question. Naming Jon Snow his FATHER'S legitimate son would make him (if J =R+L) Jon Targaryen. that would make him king not only of the North but of Westros. (maybe) But Robb admitted he held no claim South of the Riverlands.

That legitimization will only be acknowledged by those who acknowledge Robb as King in the North. That might be the fellow Northerners after a Stark restoration, but it would hardly be relevant to the Iron Throne.

However, many people believe that Jon was born legitimately anyways as Rhaegar might have revived the Targ custom of polygamy and taken Lyanna as his second wife. This would fit in with Rhaegar's obsession with the early Targs and with the behaviour of the KG at the ToJ.

So if you want Jon to be known as Rhaegar's legit son, evidence of the wedding (drunken septon? Wylla? piece of paper? mysterious proof kept safe by Howland?) or something similar would probably work better than the will of who in the eyes of the majority of the realm was a rebel and a traitor, and who himself never claimed to be king of Westeros.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You all seem to misunderstand the question. Naming Jon Snow his FATHER'S legitimate son would make him (if J =R+L) Jon Targaryen. that would make him king not only of the North but of Westros. (maybe) But Robb admitted he held no claim South of the Riverlands.

I don't agree. 1. the Targs lost any claim when they lost the throne, 2. why explicitly name him his father's son when everyone know who Jon Snow is

[SkaggCannibal]

It doesn't really matter what Robb wrote in the will, as as soon as Rickon and/or Bran turn up, the rules of succession point to them.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

oh will he?

If he would assume that "death" really released him from his vows, it would be the cheapest thing. On the other hand, he might just realise that the NW lost its meaning and necessity as an institution.

[Mikkel]

I still maintain my belief that Robb's will, if it ever resurfaces, will mainly matter to Jon in the sense that it may help him get rid of the rather gigantic "I am a bastard" chip he has on his shoulder. I don't see it mattering much to anyone else at this point.

[Frozentree]

oh will he?

Unless the NW will be disbanded entirely (possible, but I see it extremely unlikely), I hope he will. If he went like "I am a Targaryen now, adios crows, I have better things to do, like sitting a throne" I would seriously start to despise him, because it would make him the biggest hypocrite in the series

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

1. The Targaryens didn't lose their claim when they lost the throne, they only lost the actual throne. Christ, Robert took the throne because of his Targaryen blood...

2. Because it's very formal.

1. No, because of his Warhamer.

Sorry, i just had to write it

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1. No, because of his Warhamer.

Sorry, i just had to write it

this

[Mikkel]

Hehe time to flog another of my pet themes:

Claims are not a mystical, powerful, magical thing. They are exactly what people make them - no more, no less.

If Daenerys can convince enough people to support her, her "claim" will be considered legit. If she can't - it'll be considered void. The exact same goes for any other contender for the throne - but the Targaryans are the ones people seem to attribute the most "right" to the throne for.

ETA: And by "support" I mean physical military support mainly, not promises and treaties - as we're reminded ad nauseum by Martin "Words are wind".

[Lala]

Hehe time to flog another of my pet themes:

Claims are not a mystical, powerful, magical thing. They are exactly what people make them - no more, no less.

If Daenerys can convince enough people to support her, her "claim" will be considered legit. If she can't - it'll be considered void. The exact same goes for any other contender for the throne - but the Targaryans are the ones people seem to attribute the most "right" to the throne for.

ETA: And by "support" I mean physical military support mainly, not promises and treaties - as we're reminded ad nauseum by Martin "Words are wind".

I don't have much to say about Robb's will, but I do want to jump in on the point of "legitimacy" for the Targaryens. I don't dispute your claim about perceptions in the 7K, I'm just amused by the irony of its veracity.

It is ironic that the Targs are viewed as those with the most legitimate claims yet they are initially conquering foreigners who have been in Westeros for the least amount of time (CoF > First Men > Andals > Targs/Valyrians) - they're only true claim comes from the fact that they were the first to unite the 7K - which is like someone arguing that because Qin united China first, then Qin has the divine right to rule 5eba (longer than 4eva).

And if you look at that Targ contenders to the throne, neither of them have grown up in Westeros - they are essentially the two most non-Westerosi applicants for the job on the list. I'm fairly concerned about Dany's ability to be culturally relevant in Westeros - I love her Khaleesi persona, but I don't think the 7K quite work that way - and about Aegon's ability to do ... well ... anything.

[Pikachu101]

Probably something like: Jon's my heir until I have a son because all my brothers are dead and Sansa is Mrs Tyrion Lannister.

Up front and simple, he is 15 after all. Don't expect some poetic, mystic will :P

I think there's going to be something in it that Sansa, Blackfish and LF can rebuke to render it docile. E.g. It was under the impression Rickon was dead or Sansa is no longer Mrs Tyrion Lannister :dunno: