What If: Lyanna's Fate as Rhaegar's Queen/Mistress?

[Mariagoner]

Well, of course you can think like that if you want, but the info that we have is that Rhaegar loved her. Period.

There are many different forms of love. I don't doubt that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in 'love' in terms of sexual passion, in terms of limerace, in terms of being so wrapped up in each other and their fantasies for the future together. (Which of course were as blissful as they wanted them to be -- the harsh light of reality doesn't need to get involved yet! Let's not talk about dead fathers or brothers!)

But I rather doubt that these two had a love that would outlast all the tragedies they helped to create -- or the actual life of king and second queen that they would end up living in Rhaegar's eventual court. Do you?

[Nami]

Who knows if they could work it out whatever they had

What I believe it would interfere with their possible happiness is the guilt they would feel because of what they started

Loving someone doesn't equal living forever ever after in a bubble of happiness. Sometimes it's not meant to be, but you still feel the love.

[Mariagoner]

Definitely true. But love's a bit harder to continue building if it has to be constructed atop a graveyard of thousands.

[Nami]

And obviously they were never meant to be, and if they had understood that all the disaster wouldn't happen.

[Mariagoner]

Which is why I always wanted to explore a world where these two had lived and had to face the consequence of their reckless actions beyond just a few months. It's one thing to die young and pretty and be forgiven by the survivors as being a pair of star-crossed lovers who didn't know any better and only wanted to save the world.

It's another for them to have to actually face all the disaster their poor decisions had led to -- and to live through the aftermath together.

[Anath]

I really, really hope they wouldn't be this heartless as to keep living in their bubble of bliss when thousands had died, among them some of those closest to the pair. Had they survived and lived happily ever after, I'd just shake my head and think, "Well, those jerks deserve each other."

[Mariagoner]

I really, really hope they wouldn't be this heartless as to keep living in their bubble of bliss when thousands had died, among them some of those closest to the pair. Had they survived and lived happily ever after, I'd just shake my head and think, "Well, those jerks deserve each other."

I'd still feel badly for Lyanna. Though she was selfish and immature and rather stupid in her actions, she was also a very young girl who was understandably angry at the society she lived in for dictating her whole life and forcing her into a marriage she hated. (In a way, I can see a lot of Cersei parallels here!) Ironically, if she had lived, she would have probably ended up in another marriage that stifled her even more (Queen Lyanna would have been miserable) and that's much too much punishment for teenage romantic foolishness.

It's Rhaegar that I'm continually baffled by. So many people in canon sing his praises of being a 'perfect prince' of such high intellect -- and he puts together a plan of such stupidity (let's run away with a high lord's daughter, piss off 3 noble families at once, leave my crazy-ass father in charge!) that it would make a slow toddler spit-take. He was a crown prince and a man supposedly born to rule and understand the consequences of his behavior. So how in the world do we reconcile his supposed skills with his utter lack of political acumen? I wouldn't hire this man to run a race!

[Nami]

IMO They are both equally to blame.

Lyanna was already a woman at 15. She was bethroned, her family had a deal with honor and she left all of them to the sharks

I don't believe she was this innocent little girl and that she had this feminist view of the world and tried to break her shackles. This is the same as romanticizing Rhaegar

She was just plain naive and quite stupid because she was running away from a life that was planned out for her liking or not

As I said in my other post about my view of Lyanna

Does't matter if she wouldn't be happy being queen or owning a castle, she would be forced to grow up and realize that life doesnt always turns out how we want it to be

She was very naive as hell, like Rhaegar

What? She wanted to be wild and free? She was the only daughter of Winterfell! Unless she wanted to live like a wildling beyond the wall, her fate was to marry and have kids liking or not.

She thought everyone had the privilege of marrying for love? Please. It's amazing how life even taught Cersei how things are hard.

Even if she became queen, everything would be different. In the TOJ she had Rhaegar all to herself, being king and queen he would barely have time for her. And her "wild" lifestyle would crumble, like it would be if she married any Lord. Sure, she could keep some hobbies, but her life would be different, she would have to behave in a certain manner and her duties as a wife, queen/wife of a Lord and mother would still be there until the day she died.

With Rhaegar, well, he was just as selish as she was

[Mariagoner]

I simply expect more from a man who has since reached maturity than from a young girl of 15. And I don't care if Westerosi society considers her a woman -- they also believe in the absolute right of kings and look at how well that works out. Most 15 year old girls (and boys) are idiots and that's fine -- our brains haven't even physically finished maturing at that age* and very few of us have much hands-on experience. Idiocy from teenagers is expect, though Stark teenagers should beware considering how both Robb and Lyanna Stark eventually died from poor romantic decisions!

(*Interestingly, the brain (and more specifically, the frontal cortex) doesn't fully mature until the late 20s, possibly early 30s! The More You Know.)

But grown-ass men who are also married, fathers, and crowned princes with political training? Should goddamn know better. Though given how poorly Rhaegar acted, I kinda doubt he'd know how to rule a goddamn knitting circle!

[Nami]

Doesn't matter. She abandoned her family just as he did with his own

I think it's actually quite a let down and makes me even detest her character if she turns out to be this stupid deluded girl. We already have a Sansa (oldSansa). It's really one dimensional and this independent woman fighting for her rights thing is very cliche.

She's a much more interesting character if she's a grey one, acting selfish for whatever reason. Just like Rhaegar. They had their reasons and that was enough for them.

I think Ned was the one good character, and this becomes boring FAST

[lareine]

Ah, I should be more clear, sorry. I'm willing to speculate about all of these facts and would love to know how others see it going down! I think Robert's death could go either way (he might be saved, depending on whether Rhaegar can get his head out of his ass soon enough to send a damn message to someone about how he hasn't kidnapped Lyanna after all) but I think Brandon and Lord Stark would probably still be killed, given how impetuous Brandon was. But I'm open to hearing ANY scenarios people come up with. I love speculation!

Who lives? Who dies? How does the rebellion end? Who ends up loving/hating Lyanna, Rhaegar, Elia, Jon? What happens to Lyanna later in life? All possible ideas are welcome!

No worries!

Of course this is only my opinion, but I do think that Brandon and Rickard's death would be the nail on the coffin of their relationship. Lyanna seemed to be very close to her family and even though she couldn't have foreseen what Aerys did to them, I imagine she still would feel an incredible amount of guilt and sadness that would completely overshadow any feelings of love she had for Rhaegar. I could see her wanting to just go back to Winterfell with Ned and live out the rest of her days quietly with Jon.

I also think that she would have been miserable in KL being #2 queen. That would have been a million times more confining a life than being the wife of a high lord which was what she didn't want to be in the first place. Like you said, everyone would have their knives out for her and make her life miserable. I also think the hatred wouldn't only come from the Martells; anyone who lost family or loved ones in the rebellion would not be too warmly inclined towards her. Even her brother's allies would probably have issues with her. After all, they were under the impression that she had been taken against her will; with all they had suffered, how would they feel if they found out that she had actually gone willingly?

[lareine]

I simply expect more from a man who has since reached maturity than from a young girl of 15. And I don't care if Westerosi society considers her a woman -- they also believe in the absolute right of kings and look at how well that works out. Most 15 year old girls (and boys) are idiots and that's fine -- our brains haven't even physically finished maturing at that age* and very few of us have much hands-on experience. Idiocy from teenagers is expect, though Stark teenagers should beware considering how both Robb and Lyanna Stark eventually died from poor romantic decisions!

(*Interestingly, the brain (and more specifically, the frontal cortex) doesn't fully mature until the late 20s, possibly early 30s! The More You Know.)

But grown-ass men who are also married, fathers, and crowned princes with political training? Should goddamn know better. Though given how poorly Rhaegar acted, I kinda doubt he'd know how to rule a goddamn knitting circle!

I do find it fascinating how politically clueless his actions were and yet so many characters think he would have made an amazing king! Though I guess if you think about it, where would he have learned responsible statecraft from? Certainly not from his father. He must have had some kind of charming personal appeal that endeared him to others. And as one of the other commentators said, being a handsome, harp playing prince never hurts! I remember reading somewhere that princes are always loved and evaluated more for their potential than for the young men they actually are. They have none of the actual day to day tediousness and responsibility that goes along with ruling. They get to play and be dashing and indulge in whatever takes their fancy. Though he may have been well intentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhaegar had lived in his own little bubble completely sheltered from any unpleasant intrusions from the real world. Because of this, even though he was a grown man, married and a father, I guess it wouldn't be surprising if his emotional maturity was a little regressed. He often reminds me of Ashley Wilkes from Gone With The Wind who was also drowsy eyed, dreamy and aloof.

[Raksha the Demon]

It's not about love, it's about the fact that Lyanna's sons will always be a threat to Aegon. Any good mother would be wary of Jon, I don't see why Elia would be any different.

Also Lyanna wouldn't be Rhaegar's paramour, she'd be his wife. The whole business is far too risky for Elia to just "be ok with it"

I don't care if fans blame both, but I do care if they just throw all the blame on Lyanna

Lyanna did make, in my opinion, a huge mistake in running off with Rhaegar, but who was the adult, married-with-children prince and who was the 14-year-old romantically idealistic girl? I blame Rhaegar ten times more than Lyanna. Unless there was some kind of timetable that dictated he had to sire the Magical Mystery Prophecy Savior baby at a time when the kid's mother was a teenager, Rhaegar could have waited at least a few months, long enough to at least try to unseat his nutcase father and set up a protective regency for his confined father. I don't think Robert was going to marry Lyanna that quickly; I don't believe the wedding date had even been set yet. Rhaegar should have brought Lyanna to King's Landing when he was in power, not Aerys, sent messages to the Starks and to Robert that he was taking her as a second wife with her consent; been able to provide some kind of weregild to both injured families and have Lyanna write some letters herself to prove she had not been abducted (better yet, invite the Starks to come and talk).

I don't think Rhaegar was a complete pinhead; but he doesn't seem to have had much of a sense of political realism or even of human nature.

[lareine]

Lyanna did make, in my opinion, a huge mistake in running off with Rhaegar, but who was the adult, married-with-children prince and who was the 14-year-old romantically idealistic girl? I blame Rhaegar ten times more than Lyanna. Unless there was some kind of timetable that dictated he had to sire the Magical Mystery Prophecy Savior baby at a time when the kid's mother was a teenager, Rhaegar could have waited at least a few months, long enough to at least try to unseat his nutcase father and set up a protective regency for his confined father. I don't think Robert was going to marry Lyanna that quickly; I don't believe the wedding date had even been set yet. Rhaegar should have brought Lyanna to King's Landing when he was in power, not Aerys, sent messages to the Starks and to Robert that he was taking her as a second wife with her consent; been able to provide some kind of weregild to both injured families and have Lyanna write some letters herself to prove she had not been abducted (better yet, invite the Starks to come and talk).

I don't think Rhaegar was a complete pinhead; but he doesn't seem to have had much of a sense of political realism or even of human nature.

That would have been the more politically astute way to handle the predicament. I've wondered the same thing about the timing; why couldn't he wait and take care of his situation with his father first? That would have given him a lot more leverage to take a second wife. I do wonder if there wasn't some timing issue that we don't know about yet that was in play...

[Pikachu101]

Lyanna did make, in my opinion, a huge mistake in running off with Rhaegar, but who was the adult, married-with-children prince and who was the 14-year-old romantically idealistic girl? I blame Rhaegar ten times more than Lyanna.

...

I don't think Rhaegar was a complete pinhead; but he doesn't seem to have had much of a sense of political realism or even of human nature.

I agree with you, Lyanna was a teenager who lived a sheltered life in the North. Look how naive Robb and Sansa were, I don't see why she'd be any different. If she thought she was "in love" and that someone had already contacted her family she wouldn't realise her mistake until the last minute

To me Rhaegar reminds if those men who thinks everything should go their way because they're "special". The man is foolish and naive, definitely not the type of person you'd want as king.

[Pikachu101]

For god's sake, what did these two even know about each other before they ran off with one another? How much did they have in common and what -- besides Rhaegar's fantasies about his prophesized children and Lyanna's fantasies about somehow running wild as a knight despite being his new queen -- would they even talk about?

:agree:

This relationship would never work out, once the spark has gone and all their left with is comfortable silence one of them is going to realise just how miserable this marriage is.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna realised this whilst in the ToJ. She's home sick, miserable, she can't leave the tower and all she's stuck with is a prince rambling about his prophecy and three heads.

Lyanna strikes me as the type who prefers men who can laugh and joke with her and Rhaegar does not strike me as the comedian type :P

It's odd but even though Robert and Elia weren't the ones they fell in love with, both of them would be a lot happier with those two rather than "the love of their lives"

How strong could their relationship possibly be when it began as Rhaegar's quest to find a suitable womb for a new daughter and Lyanna's delusions about how running off with him would make her life happier?

Sometimes the best relationships are the ones based off commitment and respect, not passionate love e.g. Ned and Cat

[Mariagoner]

I agree with you, Lyanna was a teenager who lived a sheltered life in the North. Look how naive Robb and Sansa were, I don't see why she'd be any different.

If I were a Lord Stark, I'd keep any children of mine away from the opposite sex until the age of 30. Seriously, so many young Starks end up screwing themselves over out of 'love'! I really doubt that Lyanna's 'love' for Rhaegar was any more real or well-thought-out than Robb's 'love' for Jeyne or Sansa's 'love' for Joffrey.

I don't think Robert was going to marry Lyanna that quickly; I don't believe the wedding date had even been set yet. Rhaegar should have brought Lyanna to King's Landing when he was in power, not Aerys, sent messages to the Starks and to Robert that he was taking her as a second wife with her consent; been able to provide some kind of weregild to both injured families and have Lyanna write some letters herself to prove she had not been abducted (better yet, invite the Starks to come and talk).

Exactly. I don't know why Prince Dopey was in some manic hurry to get Lyanna knocked up -- there were so many ways he could have gone about matters to lessen the risk of his scheme. Why not make up some plan to send Robert abroad for a 'prestigious' mission that would delay the marriage, if he was worried about Lyanna getting married? Why not depose the king first? Why not get some sort of public permission from Elia to pacify the Dorne, if Elia was a-ok with his rambles about prophecy? (I honestly think she was likely humoring him but if she wasn't, why not use that?) Why not approach Lord Stark with an offer to make Lyanna the second queen if Rhaegar really thought he could pull it off politically?

Any reasonably intelligent person could have come up with ways to mitigate all the risks of the venture -- namely, pissing off 3 noble families and dealing with his crazy erratic father/king who's prone to killing people recklessly. But -- nah, he had to plow that northern filly as fast as possible, apparently. Due diligence isn't worth anything when it comes to boinking non-stop in the tower of joy!

I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna realised this whilst in the ToJ. She's home sick, miserable, she can't leave the tower and all she's stuck with is a prince rambling about his prophecy and three heads.

I really would think worse of Lyanna if I eventually found out she was thrilled with her life of being barefoot and pregnant and stuck in the Tower of Joy near the end of the war. Like -- girl, all this shit went down, tons of people got killed, you're a virtual prisoner with no power, and you're still moony eyed over the idjit that got you into this mess? She's be worse than Sansa ever was over Joffrey!

It's odd but even though Robert and Elia weren't the ones they fell in love with, both of them would be a lot happier with those two rather than "the love of their lives"

I honestly agree. If Rhaegar and Lyanna had lived, they would have each become stuck dealing with a grieving, rebellious teenager unsuitable toward being a queen and a prophecy-obsessed nit-wit with the planning skills of a slow gnat who would likely see Stark 'casualties' as the cost of doing business. That does not the recipe for happiness make.

[Nami]

That would have been the more politically astute way to handle the predicament. I've wondered the same thing about the timing; why couldn't he wait and take care of his situation with his father first? That would have given him a lot more leverage to take a second wife. I do wonder if there wasn't some timing issue that we don't know about yet that was in play...

Because she would be already married

[Mariagoner]

Because she would be already married.

And there are no ways around that? Lyanna's only 14 and only engaged -- Rhaegar might well have done some clever maneuevering to delay that engagement until he had the chance to marry Lyanna lawfully. Perhaps he could have sent Robert abroad on some fool's errand tailored to make sure Robert would spend years away from Lyanna. (Or even die overseas!) Or perhaps he could cut a deal with Lord Stark to eventually given Lyanna to him, promising him that having a grand-child who might eventually ascend to the Iron Throne is far better than simply having Baratheon grand-children. Or perhaps he could simply ask all nobles to cease marriage ceremonies while he completed the tricky task of overthrowing his father -- Lord Stark would hardly want to go against that and risk the eventual King Rhaegar's wrath.

The point is that there are many options between (1) do nothing and watch Lyanna get married to another, and (2) run off with Lyanna and leave everyone completely panicked. All it would take is some clever maneuevering.

But apparently, clever manuevering is as foreign to Rhaegar as morals are to Roose Bolton.

[Nami]

:lmao: