What If: Lyanna's Fate as Rhaegar's Queen/Mistress?

[Ygrain]

We'll assume that Rhaegar was smart enough to hire a mid-wife this time around, I guess.

(Because seriously... what a brilliant mind this man has. Let's take an inexperienced teenage girl who's never shown any knowledge of anatomy or medicine or child-birth, stick her in a tower surrounded by desert, impregnate her, and then leave her to give birth alone while all her guards are off trying to kill her brother whose come to rescue her. Apparently, being smart enough to hire a discreet, experienced and incredibly well-paid mid-wife to help said teenage girl deliver her incredibly valuable prophecy baby is going a step too far.)

(It's actually really sad because who knows... maybe Lyanna might have lived if she had any bloody help while giving birth! Hell, infant Jon might have died as well if Ned wasn't around -- rendering the whole misadventure even more pointless. Seriously, I don't think Rhaegar could plan a freaking picnic, given how bad he is at handling details.)

Are you going to ignore the fact that we don't know if there was a midwife or not?

Plus, if Lyanna got an infection and died of puerperal fever, the presence or absencec of any help wouldn't make any difference, as Westeros doesn't know ATBs.

[Mariagoner]

Are you going to ignore the fact that we don't know if there was a midwife or not?

Plus, if Lyanna got an infection and died of puerperal fever, the presence or absencec of any help wouldn't make any difference, as Westeros doesn't know ATBs.

Lyanna's chances of living were far higher with some kind of professional around than not, especially given the fact that we don't know exactly what killed her. It's possible it was a breech birth and having a mid-wife or maestar around might have saved her. Hell, Elia managed to give birth twice, and she was said to be very frail to begin with. The maestars and mid-wives of Westeros must have some expertise -- how else did Elia survive?

And if Lyanna did have a maester/mid-wife around, said mid-wife was sure sneaky as a ninja for Ned not to have any recollection of her. (Did she climb out the window during all the fighting? Clever! Maybe she trained with Howland Reed beforehand!) And she wasn't very good at her job either, if Lyanna ends up delirious in a pool of blood. It actually makes Rhaegar look worse if he bungled up the job of finding a competant person to help his new wife birth their incredibly precious prophecy baby!

[Valandui]

I doubt Elia would care that much. Theirs' wasn't a love marriage and it's not like Lyanna's children would supplant her own. Also, the Dornish also have a history of keeping paramours, sometimes on top of having their own spouses. I doubt it would be new territory for her.

[Mariagoner]

I doubt Elia would care that much. Theirs' wasn't a love marriage and it's not like Lyanna's children would supplant her own. Also, the Dornish also have a history of keeping paramours, sometimes on top of having their own spouses. I doubt it would be new territory for her.

I could totally see a fuming Oberyn threatening to kill any of Lyanna's little 'bastards' if need be to Elia. The Dornish may be pretty liberated but they sure as hell seemed upset at the slight to their queen. And a king keeping paramours and lovers is nothing new -- but having second wife and legitimizing her children seems a stricitly Targaryen-only thing.

Just because the Dornish are more liberal in their sexual practices in some respects does not mean that they'd be all right with all possible romantic/political combinations. You don't see them comitting incest the way the Targaryens did, do you?

[Nami]

In fact, would Rhaegar and Lyanna still 'love' each other after the pressure-cooker of living in court, especially given how badly suited Lyanna would be? (Seriously -- think of how well an older Arya would deal with being queen and that's about how I think things would go with Lyanna as well.) Do these two even really love one another or just the fantasy of each other?

I think they did love each other (you must have felt something strong for someone for that person be the last thought on your mind before you die), but it wouldn't matter because Lyanna would always blame herself and R for what they caused

[Ygrain]

Lyanna's chances of living were far higher with some kind of professional around than not, especially given the fact that we don't know exactly what killed her. It's possible it was a breech birth and having a mid-wife or maestar around might have saved her. Hell, Elia managed to give birth twice, and she was said to be very frail to begin with. The maestars and mid-wives of Westeros must have some expertise -- how else did Elia survive?

And if Lyanna did have a maester/mid-wife around, said mid-wife was sure sneaky as a ninja for Ned not to have any recollection of her. (Did she climb out the window during all the fighting? Clever! Maybe she trained with Howland Reed beforehand!) And she wasn't very good at her job either, if Lyanna ends up delirious in a pool of blood. It actually makes Rhaegar look worse if he bungled up the job of finding a competant person to help his new wife birth their incredibly precious prophecy baby!

Go check what puerperal fever is, and while you're at it, what e.g. Joanna Lannister and Minisa Tully died of.

Ned doesn't have a recollection of a cook or washerwoman, either, though it is not likely that the KG were the ones doing this sort of tasks for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

And, since being snarky without really knowing the text doesn't make for an interesting debate, I'm done here.

[Pikachu101]

If Lyanna accept Rhaegar, and went to him with her own will. Then she is really a whore for me, worser than Sansa. I hope Rhaegar was abductor.

First of all I love how you just slut shamed Lyanna and didn't think twice about Rhaegar. He's the one whose married with kids.

Secondly what does Sansa have to do with this?

[Nami]

First of all I love how you just slut shamed Lyanna and didn't think twice about Rhaegar. He's the one whose married with kids.

Secondly what does Sansa have to do with this?

Whatever, they're both to blame.

[Pikachu101]

I doubt Elia would care that much. Theirs' wasn't a love marriage and it's not like Lyanna's children would supplant her own. Also, the Dornish also have a history of keeping paramours, sometimes on top of having their own spouses. I doubt it would be new territory for her.

It's not about love, it's about the fact that Lyanna's sons will always be a threat to Aegon. Any good mother would be wary of Jon, I don't see why Elia would be any different.

Also Lyanna wouldn't be Rhaegar's paramour, she'd be his wife. The whole business is far too risky for Elia to just "be ok with it"

Whatever, they're both to blame.

I don't care if fans blame both, but I do care if they just throw all the blame on Lyanna

[Mariagoner]

Go check what puerperal fever is, and while you're at it, what e.g. Joanna Lannister and Minisa Tully died of.

But... the point is that we don't know what did or did not kill Lyanna and we can't assume it was some condition that would have killed her either way. If she had better help, she might well have pulled through. Hell, even someone as weak as Elia managed to survive with the help of talented maesters. Either which way, Rhaegar's actions didn't make it easy on her.

I think they did love each other (you must have felt something strong for someone for that person be the last thought on your mind before you die), but it wouldn't matter because Lyanna would always blame herself and R for what they caused

I do wonder about how she'd end up psychologically afterward. Would she experience survivor's guilt? Become suddenly religious and continually repent for her 'sins'? Try to go back home with her son? Believe in the prophecy and cling to it as a way of justifying her actions? There are so many possibilities.

Also Lyanna wouldn't be Rhaegar's paramour, she'd be his wife. The whole business is far too risky for Elia to just "be ok with it"

Though it's incredibly implausible, I kind of love the idea of Elia going, you know what? You wanted your young wife -- now go have her. And then getting an anullment and moving back to Dorne with her children and getting the hell away from her crazy fire-obsessed father-in-law and crazy prophecy-obsessed husband and living the life of freedom that Lyanna (ironically) wanted. (Though Lyanna would end up stuck with the role of queen-in-waiting -- which would likely drive her mad before long.) I just wish the poor woman could have some happiness given to her!

[Erkan12]

Secondly what does Sansa have to do with this?

Jeez i just compared the evil starks, if Lyanna went to Rhaegar with own will, she would became worst stark ever for me.

Even if R+L=J theory is true, i hope it would be stockholm syndrome or something for not evil lyanna stark.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

In your hypothetical situation Northern army destroyed, Brandon and Rickard dead, Ned and Benjen dead. How would Lyanna react? She would kill Rheagar first and then commit a suicide.

[Nami]

I don't care if fans blame both, but I do care if they just throw all the blame on Lyanna

Because she's a Stark?

And no one does that. Actually, everyone throws the blame on Rhaegar and say she was innocent pure seduced girl, but also said she was already a woman and R wasn't a pedo, really.

Make up your minds!

[Mariagoner]

In your hypothetical situation Northern army destroyed, Brandon and Rickard dead, Ned and Benjen dead. How would Lyanna react? She would kill Rheagar first and then commit a suicide.

Murder-suicide? Well, that's one way to cut down conflict in court!

And no one does that. Actually, everyone throws the blame on Rhaegar and say she was innocent pure seduced girl, but also said she was already a woman and R wasn't a pedo, really.

And ironically, in Westeros, all the blame would likely be heaped on her, with many people swearing Rhaegar's foolishness in believing his prophecy was fueled by his desire for her. (Just like Anne Bolyen was blamed for 'inflaming' Henry VIII's desires for her, despite him being the one to set aside his loyal, loving, rather-Elia-like first wife.) Amazing how we have such differences in view!

[Lord Damian]

It would have been a disaster for the Stark family. First off, from what we know, Rheagar had control over Lyanna whether she liked it or not. Second, there has been no remorse from what happened to her family as a result of his - abducton/elopement with Lyanna. IF he had won at the Trident, odds were Ned would have been executed for treason, Benjen may have already been at the wall and Lyanna would have inherited the North and Rheagar would have effectively stolen her and the North into his direct Control. Aerys may have been in on this too, do not dicount that. After all, he is the one who killed Lord of the North his heir and called for the next in line's head, all the while his son had the daughter of said lord Paramount trying to breed a child off of her. Rheagar was a fucking bastard and unless there is more retro - dialog showing any remorse, you will never convince me otherwise.

[HtheHound]

_{JonRaven, feared skin-changing bastard brother and Hand of the King to King Aegon}

[Mariagoner]

_{JonRaven, feared skin-changing bastard brother and Hand of the King to King Aegon}

If Rhaeagar valued Jon so much, I doubt Jon would end up a bastard in this version of Westerosi history.

I wonder if Jon would end up happier as the prince of Westeros than as the bastard of Winterfell? Sadly enough, I think he'd likely suffer feelings of loneliness either which way, given that he'd grow up with the tangled history of his parents and the schemers of the court constantly whispering about his potential trecheary. Poor guy can't win either which way.

It would have been a disaster for the Stark family. First off, from what we know, Rheagar had control over Lyanna whether she liked it or not. Second, there has been no remorse from what happened to her family as a result of his - abducton/elopement with Lyanna. IF he had won at the Trident, odds were Ned would have been executed for treason, Benjen may have already been at the wall and Lyanna would have inherited the North and Rheagar would have effectively stolen her and the North into his direct Control.

That's a really interesting idea. Could the crown come to directly control the north if Lyanna is the last 'legitimate' Stark left? (Although that's assuming Lord Stark and Brandon are killed, Ned is killed/exiled, and Benjen is... somewhere else. Exiled as well? I think he took the black cloak years later, didn't he?) Or if young Benjen is left Lord Stark, maybe Rhaegar would come to influence more than he would a more mature Ned.

It would be seen as even more of a power-grab on the Targaryen's part, wouldn't it? And I wonder how the loyalists in the North would come view that!

[Pikachu101]

In your hypothetical situation Northern army destroyed, Brandon and Rickard dead, Ned and Benjen dead. How would Lyanna react? She would kill Rheagar first and then commit a suicide.

I don't think Ned would be dead

I know some think she'll try and justify it in her head and force herself to ignore all the bad bits. But on the other hand considering ho much she's going to suffer in court I can see her giving up, she's lost everything and won nothing in return.

But I can also see her trying to go back home to Winterfell, she doesn't belong in court and she's not fit to be queen. When she finally realises it, I'm sure she'll try to leave

[Morienthar]

I don't think Ned would be dead

Ned was at the Trident,He would either be captured or killed,even captured he's as good as dead.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Murder-suicide? Well, that's one way to cut down conflict in court!

We know that arya is much like lyanna. So we can assume that lyanna would want to kill those people who are responsible for killing/hurting her family.