Robbs plan

[Dr. Pepper]

I started to look in acok. First thing I noticed is that in his demands of peace to the iron throne he claims his kingdom would reach goldenthooth doors by the west... He is baiting some lannister lands in all there is betweeen gt and pinkmaiden. I admit is still a weak argument. But I would search for more. After all, im an unemployed lawyer since two months lol

No.

Here's what it says:

“Lastly, King Joffrey and the Queen Regent must renounce all claims to dominion over the north. Henceforth we are no part of their realm , but a free and independent kingdom, as of old. Our domain shall include all the Stark lands north of the Neck, and in addition the lands watered by the River Trident and its vassal streams, bounded by the Golden Tooth to the west and the Mountains of the Moon in the east.”

He isn't claiming the Golden Tooth, nor is he claiming the Mountain's of the Moon. He's talking about the boundaries of his kingdom. One boundary extends to the Golden Tooth, the other extends to the Mountains of the Moon.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Then you should open topic with : ''Robb's lord would want other lands ?'' You asked first 'Robb's plan'.... And we are telling you Robb is not usurper.

why? It was answered majorly that he would return to the north with great arguments. Then it was asked if his lords wouldnt had forced him to conquer more lands. I think it tourn out into an interesting talk.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

No.

Here's what it says:

“Lastly, King Joffrey and the Queen Regent must renounce all claims to dominion over the north. Henceforth we are no part of their realm , but a free and independent kingdom, as of old. Our domain shall include all the Stark lands north of the Neck, and in addition the lands watered by the River Trident and its vassal streams, bounded by the Golden Tooth to the west and the Mountains of the Moon in the east.”

He isn't claiming the Golden Tooth, nor is he claiming the Mountain's of the Moon. He's talking about the boundaries of his kingdom. One boundary extends to the Golden Tooth, the other extends to the Mountains of the Moon.

fair point. My translation says "hasta las puertas del colmillo dorado". I was mistaken.

[Dr. Pepper]

fair point. My translation says "hasta las puertas del colmillo dorado". I was mistaken.

Uh, this means the same thing. It's not saying he's claiming Golden Tooth, but all the lands up to the Golden Tooth.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Uh, this means the same thing. It's not saying he's claiming Golden Tooth, but all the lands up to the Golden Tooth.

the border of the riverlands and westerlands is in some point between goldentooth and pinkmaiden. Not in gt doors. Anyway is quite the same. I cannot base my argument on that.

[JeepCSC]

I will say, a big difference in martinverse and medieval ages here, lords seemed to only get one land. In England, great lords had pieces of lands strung out across the country, in France, in Scotland, etc. everything is compact here. You are lord of your castle, you might have vassals in your area, but no one had multiple castles. Now second sons did get their own lands sometimes, but than they become a cadet branch. Just an observation.

Since the lords weren't looking for more land for themselves or their direct heirs, they could possibly have been looking for more land for second sons. But they didn't seem overly greedy. They plundered the Westerlands of resources, but they didn't seem overly anxious to conquer new land. Robb's plan after being crowned was to gain independence. He wanted to extricate himself from the machinations of King's landing. Getting himself more involved in Westerlands, Crownlands, Reach, or Stormlands wasn't what he sought at all.

[Dr. Pepper]

the border of the riverlands and westerlands is in some point between goldentooth and pinkmaiden. Not in gt doors. Anyway is quite the same. I cannot base my argument on that.

The Golden Tooth is the doorway to the Westerlands. The Riverlands extends past Pinkmaiden to all those lands along the Trident tributary, called the Red Fork.

Here's a pic of the canon map as reference.

[Chaircat Meow]

The lannister-tully border does indeed seem to be in front of the GT in GoT, extending for a 100 or so miles parallel to the Red Fork river.

Otherwise Edmure would never scatter small troops all along the border to stop Gregor raiding, if, in addition, he posted men outside the GT pass.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

The Golden Tooth is the doorway to the Westerlands. The Riverlands extends past Pinkmaiden to all those lands along the Trident tributary, called the Red Fork.

Here's a pic of the canon map as reference.

Agreed. Is good to lern.

I found what I told you about stannis wanting nightwatch castles to reward his men. Its in chapter 3 of ADWD. Is there any site where I can provaide an english qoute? He says "me ofreces tierras yermas y parajes desolados, pero me negais los castillos que nesecito para compensar a mis señores y vasallos"

[Dr. Pepper]

Agreed. Is good to lern.

I found what I told you about stannis wanting nightwatch castles to reward his men. Its in chapter 3 of ADWD. Is there any site where I can provaide an english qoute? He says "me ofreces tierras yermas y parajes desolados, pero me negais los castillos que nesecito para compensar a mis señores y vasallos"

Si, recuerdo ahora.

The English translation is:

“You offer me empty lands and desolations, yet deny me the castles I require to reward my lords and bannermen.”

Nearly the same thing.

If I recall correctly, Stannis isn't denying that the NW is independent. He's making the claim that the lands and keeps of the NW can be part of his kingdom. But he's requesting them of Jon, not demanding or requiring them. Stannis is also warned about rewarding northern castles and lands to southerners. Stannis points out to Jon that he tried to reward Winterfell to a north man, while Jon points out that Winterfell belongs to Sansa.

Again, Stannis isn't trying to give men lands and keeps in foreign territory. He claims kingship over all over Westeros south of the wall. For Stannis, the lands of the North are part of his domain. Robb only claimed the lands of the North and the Riverlands for his domain.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Almost true Dr.Pepper, but altough he is asking not demanding the castles, he thretens jon that if the nightwacht doesnt take care of the abandoned castles within an year he would take them by force.

[Dr. Pepper]

Almost true Dr.Pepper, but altough he is asking not demanding the castles, he thretens jon that if the nightwacht doesnt take care of the abandoned castles within an year he would take them by force.

Yes, ok. And still, how is this relevant to Robb, who claimed only the Riverlands and North as his domain? It would be totally different if Robb said, "remove yourself from the Riverlands or I will claim the Westerlands by force." But he didn't. Robb was (eventually) fighting a war for independence while Stannis is fighting a civil war.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Yes, ok. And still, how is this relevant to Robb, who claimed only the Riverlands and North as his domain? It would be totally different if Robb said, "remove yourself from the Riverlands or I will claim the Westerlands by force." But he didn't. Robb was (eventually) fighting a war for independence while Stannis is fighting a civil war.

as I told you before you convinced me. I couldnt find evidence that robb was planning either future conquest nor that his bannermen where demanding so.

[Robar]

This is a feudal kingdom, not a nation state. As such, there are no clear defined borders (which are not rivers, or a giant wall). At the time, borders weren't, well, borders, they were fluid, rather like a frontier. The limit between the Westerlands and the Riverlands is not the Golden Tooth, but somewhere between the Golden Tooth and Pinkmaiden.