Robbs plan

[Dr. Pepper]

well i must do a re read in order to provide that.

Nevertheless, in last book.I red, I recall Stannis saying he needed castles and lands in the north (even at the wall) as a reward to their followers. Even as he thinks he would win the IT and eventually return them their former lands.

The North isn't foreign territory for Stannis. He claims it as king. Robb wasn't claiming anywhere outside of the Riverlands and the North for his kingdom. All areas outside of the Riverlands and the North would be considered foreign terriroty. If Robb would have started claiming lands outside of his own independent territory, then his titles would have increased beyond King of the North and the Riverlands.

It's been a while since I've read the gift chapter, but if I recall correctly, Stannis referring to marrying his bannermen into northern houses rather than just taking them away from the current northerners.

Anyway my main argument was that if they won, for example marching thowards casterlyrock, robbs bannerman would insist on having some part of the pie... Even more, im starting to remember some glover and someone else were fighting with some part of robbs army pretty far from riverlands against robb wishes. Wasnt near rosby? I cant recall

They were certainly picking up spoils along the way. For example, Maege Mormont took a bunch of cattle. But taking a piece of the pie isn't necessarily the same as expanind one's kingdom. There are spoils of war, which they took, but then there is expanding a kingdom by claiming lands and castles.

You're thinking of Duskendale, which was a set up by Roose so that he could get rid of some Robb loyalists before the Red Wedding and his return to the North.

Also, Robb's army didn't solely stay in the Riverlands. Robb himself led a campaign to the Westerlands. Spoils were taken, but not lands and castles. They didn't go to expand his kingdom.

[PrinceHenryris]

The second The GreatJon named him "The King In the North", he should have started heading back to Winterfell, married the Frey of his choice on the way, and lived a long life.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

The North isn't foreign territory for Stannis. He claims it as king. Robb wasn't claiming anywhere outside of the Riverlands and the North for his kingdom. All areas outside of the Riverlands and the North would be considered foreign terriroty. If Robb would have started claiming lands outside of his own independent territory, then his titles would have increased beyond King of the North and the Riverlands.

It's been a while since I've read the gift chapter, but if I recall correctly, Stannis referring to marrying his bannermen into northern houses rather than just taking them away from the current northerners.

again my lack of english skills is making me fail to make myself clear. Im trying to say that as long as he was winning, for example taking a castle for estrategic reasons, his bannermen would insist on having a part of it.

Also what stannis wanted for his bannermen were castles of the wall. I cant provaide you with the quote since my books are spanish

[Dr. Pepper]

again my lack of english skills is making me fail to make myself clear. Im trying to say that as long as he was winning, for example taking a castle for estrategic reasons, his bannermen would insist on having a part of it.

But why? Why insist on having a castle in lands they consider foreign, lands they want not part of other than the war stuff and the spoils stuff? What is strategic about holding a castle in foreign lands? If some of his bannermen decided they wanted a castle in the Reach for their own, they could take it. But then they'd be left defending it on their own. Robb and co were planning on returning to the north as soon as wedding at the Twins was done.

[Erkan12]

Anyway my main argument was that if they won, for example marching thowards casterlyrock, robbs bannerman would insist on having some part of the pie... Even more, im starting to remember that some glover and someone else were fighting with some part of robbs army pretty far from riverlands against robb wishes. Wasnt near rosby? I cant recall

Then he would become true usurper. The thing about Robb is, he became king because he wanted by lords and people. Not because he conquered it.

You are saying that he should took other lands, this would be not 'stark'ly...

[Señor de la Tormenta]

But why? Why insist on having a castle in lands they consider foreign, lands they want inot part of other than the war stuff and the spoils stuff? What is strategic about holding a castle in foreign lands? If some of his bannermen decided they wanted a castle in the Reach for their own, they could take it. But then they'd be left defending it on their own. Robb and co were planning on returning to the north as soon as wedding at the Twins was done.

seriously? What do you think that robb was going to do when tywin marched against the crag, for example?

[Erkan12]

seriously? What do you think that robb was going to do when tywin marched against the crag, for example?

How did he won the war, while Tywin still alive ???

[Chaircat Meow]

Robb wouldn't have wanted to protect the lands of bannermen that were in other people's lands. That would mean constant trouble and possibly war.

[Dr. Pepper]

seriously? What do you think that robb was going to do when tywin marched against the crag, for example?

Seriously?

He was going to defeat him. That was the goal. He wasn't there to claim more territory for his kingdom.

Robb claimed the North and the Riverlands as an independent kingdom. Everything else was foreign territory. Please explain why one of his bannermen would want lands and a castle in foreign territory, where they were completely vulnerable.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Seriously?

He was going to defeat him. That was the goal. He wasn't there to claim more territory for his kingdom.

Robb claimed the North and the Riverlands as an independent kingdom. Everything else was foreign territory. Please explain why one of his bannermen would want lands and a castle in foreign territory, where they were completely vulnerable.

so you think that for example if the king of the north/riverlands/the crag in the westerlands , would have taken casterly rock he would just turn back to the north and leave the castle alone ?

[Burdette]

so you think that for example if the king of the north/riverlands/the crag in the westerlands , would have taken casterly rock he would just turn back to the north and leave the castle alone ?

After he took all he needed...yeah pretty much.

[ab aeterno]

so you think that for example if the king of the north/riverlands/the crag in the westerlands , would have taken casterly rock he would just turn back to the north and leave the castle alone ?

Taking and holding hostile territory in the long term is likely to be more trouble to Robb than it is worth, assuming he could stamp out all armed resistance. It would be far more likely, if he was this successful (unlikely,) that he would sack the Rock, probably loot it, and then force whoever was left in charge of the Lannisters to sign a peace treaty. Holding small segments of enemy territory, especially those that can't be well protected and supplied from your own lands, is not a safe proposition and it is made worse if the population is hostile.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Taking and holding hostile territory in the long term is likely to be more trouble t Robb than it is worth, assuming he could stamp out all armed resistance. It would be far more likely, if he was this successful (unlikely,) that he would sack the Rock, probably loot it, and then force whoever was left in charge of the Lannisters to sign a peace treaty. Holding small segments of enemy territory, especially those that can't be well protected and supplied from your own lands, is not a safe proposition and it is made worse if the population is hostile.

like the crab? In lannisters domains? Right in the middle of the westerlands?

[ab aeterno]

like the crab? In lannisters domains? Right in the middle of the westerlands?

The Crag joined Robb through a marriage alliance, but there is no indication he was ever intending to take it and hold it, just that he was eliminating Lannister "strongholds" as he attacked. He's not a Dothraki, he understands the necessity of taking castles. The Crag is allied with Robb under basically the same reasoning as the Riverlands. He doesn't even leave a garrison there as far as I can recall. It's also worth noting that the Crag alliance is a result of Robb blundering into the Westerling marriage, rather than any strategic choice.

[Mad Monkey]

so you think that for example if the king of the north/riverlands/the crag in the westerlands , would have taken casterly rock he would just turn back to the north and leave the castle alone ?

Do you think it would have been realistic for Robb Stark to rule the Westerlands from Winterfell? Isn't that like trying to rule Westeros from Meereen?

If Robb did take Casterly Rock, he would almost certainly use it to drag the Lannisters to the peace table; he wouldn't have held on it forever. Trying to conquer and hold it would be an enormous waste of resources and valuable manpower and leave his own kingdom vulnerable. Indeed, the only reason he invaded the Westerlands in the first place was to draw Tywin out and force him to choose between rescuing his home or heading back to KL to rescue Joffrey. If Tywin had agreed to recognized the independence of the North and the Trident, Robb wouldn't have invaded since he didn't go to war to conquer the Iron Throne, he went to war to separate his people from the Lannisters, who cheerfullly murdered his father, took his sisters captive, and -- oh yeah -- sentenced the entire Riverlands to death at the hands of Gregor Clegane and Vargo Hoat. Conquering the Westerlands was never part of it; he only attacked as part of a military strategy, not as part of a goal to conquer Westeros.

[Dr. Pepper]

so you think that for example if the king of the north/riverlands/the crag in the westerlands , would have taken casterly rock he would just turn back to the north and leave the castle alone ?

Yes. After spoils that could be carried were taken, of course.

Robb did not go to the Westerlands to claim more land. He went to defeat his enemies. He left the Westerlands, without claiming lands other than through his marriage, and was turning back towards the North.

If Robb starts claiming lands, then he's expanding his kingdom. He was not intending to expand his kingdom. Why would one of his bannermen decide to take a castle in a foreign land if he did not have the means to protect and defend it?

Let's say Robb didn't die at the Twins. In fact, he defeated the Freys and the Boltons. There are two major lands and keeps he could offer his buddies.

The fact is, Robb wasn't involved in a civil war like the Iron Throne was. He was involved in a war for independence. Since it was not a civil war, there is no need to reward his men with castles and lands. The civil war of the Iron Throne is why castles and lands were taken from X house to give to Y house.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Lords are greedy Dr. Pepper. Robb didnt want to be king of the north. Neither the riverlands. His lords forced him.

Why is so crazy to think that if getting more lands was getting quite easy his lords wouldn forced him again?

[Dr. Pepper]

Lords are greedy Dr. Pepper. Robb didnt want to be king of the north. Neither the riverlands. His lords forced him.

Why is so crazy to think that if getting more lands was getting quite easy his lords wouldn forced him again?

Because they didn't force him! You're suggesting a hypothetical. It never happened in the books. His lords didn't push him to claim more lands. There is nothing to suggest that they wished to expand the kingdom. In any case, by this time, Robb was king and his rule was law. If he said he wasn't expanding, then they weren't expanding.

Of course, someone could have just stuck a sword in his belly if he wasn't happy with Robb's rule...if I recall correctly, this actually happened. If I recall, the person who stuck a sword in Robb's belly didn't demand lands and a keep outside of his homelands for reward. I think the only ones who request such a reward end up getting Harrenhal. And...does this really need to be explained further?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

As far as I recall, there is no indication that his bannermen were looking to expand the lands of their kingdom. I don't think the Crag was even declared part of Northern territory (though I suppose implicitly it was considering the Westerlings married the King in the North). Unless you can find quotes that show his bannermen were itching to expand, I don't think this was likely.

I started to look in acok. First thing I noticed is that in his demands of peace to the iron throne he claims his kingdom would reach goldenthooth doors by the west... He is baiting some lannister lands in all there is betweeen gt and pinkmaiden. I admit is still a weak argument. But I would search for more. After all, im an unemployed lawyer since two months lol

[Erkan12]

Lords are greedy Dr. Pepper. Robb didnt want to be king of the north. Neither the riverlands. His lords forced him.

Why is so crazy to think that if getting more lands was getting quite easy his lords wouldn forced him again?

Then you should open topic with : ''Robb's lord would want other lands ?'' You asked first 'Robb's plan'.... And we are telling you Robb is not usurper.