Rhaegar and Brothels

[UselessOpinion]

This may have been mentioned before in one of the 10,000 R + L = J threads, but those are usually too much for me to read.

In GoT Ned is at Littlefingers brothel discussing Robert and his bastards and at one point he thinks of Jon then wonders if Rhaegar had visited any brothels. It seems that his research has led him to discover Mendelian laws (laws of inheritence) when it came to Robert and his bastards, doesn't it seem strange that he would think of Jon and then question whether Rhaegar had frequented brothels? Maybe he wants some of Rhaegars bastards for comparisson...

Thoughts?

[King of Winters]

I think it's just about how Rhaegar wasn't like Robert. He didn't create bastards everywhere he went, and that's one of the things Lyanna didn't like about Robert. She didn't like his nature of bedding other women, even when Ned said she'd change Robert, and then Lyanna says "love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature". So it's clear she didn't like Robert because he had bastards already, like Mya Stone, and she believed that her marrying Robert wouldn't change that.

So I think this is a hint that Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together, because Rhaegar wasn't like Robert.

[joluoto]

We don't know Rhaegar well enough to determine whether he visited brothels or not. If he did he was way more discrete than Robert, since no one found out.

If we're to believe the image of Rhaegar as a honourable man until he kidnapped Lyanna, the answer is no. But we just don't know how well the image actually hold up to the real Rhaegar.

[Blueberry Stark]

I saw the comparison as a clue that Ned has a decent opinion of Rhaeger. When first reading GOT, we learn from Robert that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. By Ned thinking that Rhaegar wouldn't frequent brothels like Robert, it reveals that Ned doesn't necessarily share Robert's view. If Rhaegar was willing to rape a girl, he probably wouldn't be above paying for sex. Plus, Ned never thinks anything negative about Rhaegar, IIRC.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Have to agree with King, he wasn't looking for bastard comparisons, he was comparing the men and their morals.

[Ygrain]

He is making a comparison between Lyanna's betrothed and her supposed rapist, which inevitably leads to the conclusion that he knows that there was no rape, or else any comparison between the two from the victim's brother would be really gross.

[Nami]

That was an interesting moment in the book, for sure

Makes me wonder if the only women in RHaegar's life were Elia and Lyanna

[Ygrain]

That was an interesting moment in the book, for sure

Makes me wonder if the only women in RHaegar's life were Elia and Lyanna

Not implausible. Intelligent, introverted, melancholic, dutiful - not exactly the traits of a ladies' man. It may be that Lyanna was the first love of his life and that's why he may have behaved like a star-struck teenager.

[Aderyn the Sly]

After he poses the question of whether Rhaegar farequents brothels he answers "I think not" or something along those lines. I think it a deffinate character comparason between Lyanna's two suiters.

(Sidenote: I always wondered is Aurane Waters was a red herring for Rhaegar having a bastard. He's from the crownlands-supposedly of House Velaryon-which would be close to KL, and Cersei frequently claims he looks a lot like him)

[AtomixIGN]

After he poses the question of whether Rhaegar farequents brothels he answers "I think not" or something along those lines. I think it a deffinate character comparason between Lyanna's two suiters.

(Sidenote: I always wondered is Aurane Waters was a red herring for Rhaegar having a bastard. He's from the crownlands-supposedly of House Velaryon-which would be close to KL, and Cersei frequently claims he looks a lot like him)

House Velaryon are so Valaryian, the Targaryans use to marry them to keep their Targaryan blood pure. His father Monford was much the same.

[Aderyn the Sly]

House Velaryon are so Valaryian, the Targaryans use to marry them to keep their Targaryan blood pure. His father Monford was much the same.

Yes I know. Like I said, I think it's a red herring as based on what we know of Rhaegar's character he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to sleep around like Robert did.

[Ser Uncle P]

i have n't got the books to hand, but IIRC the Ned's musings about Rhaegar and brothels is prior to detective work on Roberts bastards.

The passage is meant to show that Ned had a form of respect for rheagar.

[yasasbandara]

Did Ramsay Bolton visited brothels? I seriously don't think so. It wasn't in his nature. Rape came naturally to him.

Rhaegar's weakness was not brothels or women. His weakness was something like this one...

Littlefinger: In King’s Landing, there are two sorts of people. The players and the pieces.

Sansa : And I was a piece?

Littlefinger: Yes, but don’t let that trouble you. You’re still half a child. Every man’s a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players.

Rhaegar believed that he was a MAJOR player, a player at global scale. This was probably correct, but naturally he also thought other human beings were pieces to move around at will. This was his weakness. This was the mistake he payed for. Unfortunately, thousands payed for it as well.

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar believed that he was a MAJOR player, a player at global scale. This was probably correct, but naturally he also thought other human beings were pieces to move around at will. This was his weakness. This was the mistake he payed for. Unfortunately, thousands payed for it as well.

Any textual proof of Rhaegar playing a game of thrones and regarding others as pieces?

[Mariagoner]

I think it's just about how Rhaegar wasn't like Robert. He didn't create bastards everywhere he went, and that's one of the things Lyanna didn't like about Robert. She didn't like his nature of bedding other women, even when Ned said she'd change Robert, and then Lyanna says "love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature". So it's clear she didn't like Robert because he had bastards already, like Mya Stone, and she believed that her marrying Robert wouldn't change that.

So instead, Lyanna ran off with a married man who would (at best!) have to divorced his loyal wife and disinherit his existing children to marry her and legitimize his children with her. (Or at worst would stay married to Elia and keep Lyanna as a mistress -- or cast Lyanna off once he got a child with her.)

Oh Lyanna. Her antics seriously remind me of how stupid I was when I was a love-struck teenager. It makes her young death all the more tragic, seeing as how it happened more out of her own desperation to get away from Robert and romantic fantasies than anything else.

And btw, I'm almost definitely sure that Rhaegar's no rapist and he didn't run off with Lyanna by force, which makes him at least better than notables like Craster and The Mountain. (Yay, he's better than serial rapists!) But running off with a 14 year old girl and spending months fucking her up in his creepily named 'Tower of Joy' while the world goes to hell around him was an utterly disgusting move as well. Rapist or not, Rhaegar was a shitty husband to Elia and a terrible crown prince to Westeros.

[King of Winters]

So instead, Lyanna ran off with a married man who would (at best!) have to divorced his loyal wife and disinherit his existing children to marry her and legitimize his children with her. (Or at worst would stay married to Elia and keep Lyanna as a mistress -- or cast Lyanna off once he got a child with her.)

Or maybe Rhaegar married her as well, as Targs have been known to do polygamy, and made her his second wife, and didn't divorce Elia and disinherit his other children.

[Mariagoner]

Or maybe Rhaegar married her as well, as Targs have been known to do polygamy, and made her his second wife, and didn't divorce Elia and disinherit his other children.

And what young girl doesn't dream of sharing her husband with another woman -- especially a woman that was there first?

Ah, that really must have caught romantic and wild-spirited Lyanna's fancy!

But seriously -- I think Lyanna was just caught up in her desperation to escape her match with Robert and all the responsibilities that being Lady Baratheon would bring her, infatuated with Rhaegar because of his beauty and melancholy and romantic promises, and ran off without realizing the trouble and difficulty she was putting herself and the people who loved her (and would be worried sick about her) in.

Even if everything had "worked out" and somehow, miraculously, no one died -- I doubt she'd be happy as either Queen of Westeros (what a disaster that would be!) or being known as Rhaegar's infamous royal mistress. No matter what, she'd hardly be happy being hemmed in at court and always have people watch her every move.

[Nami]

And what young girl doesn't dream of sharing her husband with another woman -- especially a woman that was there first?

Ah, that really must have caught romantic and wild-spirited Lyanna's fancy!

But seriously -- I think Lyanna was just caught up in her desperation to escape her match with Robert and all the responsibilities that being Lady Baratheon would bring her, infatuated with Rhaegar because of his beauty and melancholy and romantic promises, and ran off without realizing the trouble and difficulty she was putting herself and the people who loved her (and would be worried sick about her) in.

Even if everything had "worked out" and somehow, miraculously, no one died -- I doubt she'd be happy as either Queen of Westeros (what a disaster that would be!) or being known as Rhaegar's infamous royal mistress. No matter what, she'd hardly be happy being hemmed in at court and always have people watch her every move.

I really hope Lyanna is not as stupid AND detestable as you make her out to be.

One dimensional characters are not cool and GRRM don't write like that.

Your version of Lyanna is almost like a Bella Swann.

[Ygrain]

And btw, I'm almost definitely sure that Rhaegar's no rapist and he didn't run off with Lyanna by force, which makes him at least better than notables like Craster and The Mountain. (Yay, he's better than serial rapists!) But running off with a 14 year old girl and spending months fucking her up in his creepily named 'Tower of Joy' while the world goes to hell around him was an utterly disgusting move as well. Rapist or not, Rhaegar was a shitty husband to Elia and a terrible crown prince to Westeros.

FYI, 14 is an age of consent even in some present-day Western countries; in Westeros, with its first blood = womanhood, it's a non-issue. Lady Rohanne was married off and got pregnant when 13.

[Mariagoner]

I really hope Lyanna is not as stupid AND detestable as you make her out to be.

One dimensional characters are not cool and GRRM don't write like that.

Your version of Lyanna is almost like a Bella Swann.

I don't think of her as detestable or even extremely stupid at all. I do, however, think of Lyanna as being a young, head-strong ("blood of the wolf"), impulsive girl who made a major mistake out of desperation. I imagine her to be a young woman of a lot of promise and talent who found herself trapped in a world where none of that mattered because her overbearing father had arranged her marriage to a lout she didn't love and she couldn't deal with it. So out of desperation, and out of short-lived infatuation, she made the hasty move of running off with a married man who promised to take her away from her problems. I'm sure she ran off with him without at all believing this would trigger a major war or cause her brother to become desperate with fear to find her, leading him to be killed at the hands of a dangerous mad and unstable king.

What happened after that, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna acted in haste and then repented in leisure, bitterly regretting her actions when she ended up heavily pregnant and trapped inside The 'Tower of Joy' (the world's least subtle phallic symbolic), having received word that her father and brother were dead, that war was breaking out, and that she was one of the major causes of a rebellion that was slaughtering people left and right.

(In fact, I would find her detestable only if she never regretted her actions. If she ended up in the Tower of Joy with the full knowledge that a horrible war had been partly caused by her and Rhaegar and was still happy with her choice of tru wub, I would give up on her completely. What a thoughtless, selfish ninny she would be!)

That's actually the opposite of being a Mary Sue, which Bella Swan (you misspelled the name) quite detestably is. And I think it's one plausible reading of who Lyanna is that doesn't romanticize her and her situation at all.