Ned's disdain towards Jaime

[Crowford]

Uh... No. You can't just declare yourself "king by conquest" (whatever that is) just because you murdered the king. This is not Futurama.

Yes. Yes, you can. This is what Robert did. This is what Aegon did. It's why they call him The Conqueror. It means you can not possible derive your claim from blood or marriage, but you still have a claim, because you can. Obviously it's not enough to murder the king, but it is a step in the right direction.

If Jaime could under these circumstances is another question, but it's not that far fetched. Tywin had his whole army in King's Landing, an army that was not decimated by war, unlike Ned's. It's not at all unlikely that Jaime would go: "Alright Lord Stark, I killed the king, my father sacked the city, now kindly step aside while Tywin, first of his name, takes his throne with me as the heir." It was neither Jaime's nor Tywin's intention, but when Ned saw him looming up there on the throne, surely this is what he thought was about to happen now.

[Jasta11]

1. Being a Lannister. Given what his father just did, it's kinda understandable.

2. Sitting on the throne that didn't belong to him like it did. Powerful symbol, that.

3. Breaking his oath. We know Ned's all about honor.

4. Making it look like a Lannister power grab. I mean, the Sack plus Aerys's death? Fishy.

5. Jaime being the arrogant, unsufferable douche he is. That alone is probably enough to try Ned's patience.

Given these factors, it's entirely understandable that Ned didn't exactly hold Jaime in high esteem. Couple that with Jaime turning Aerys's death in a jest and, well...

[silentwanderer]

The children.

Ned was a very black and white man, but ever since his first POV the books made the point he wouldn't trust any Lannister with young Robin Arryn after what was done to the baby and Princess Rhaenys: they were Jaime's to protect too.

The books go back to the subject with Jaime's dream right before he rescues Brienne for Rhaegar doesn't question him about his father: he questions him about his chidren, the ones he fail to protect.

Ned's disdain for Jaime goes beyond his oathbreaking. I say this because he dislikes Cersei long before he has any real reason to do so, and I think it's based on a general dislike of Lannisters. His dislike for the Lannisters as a group is based on Tywin's delayed entry into RR, the murder of Elia and the kids, and the lavish Lannister lifestyle. Also, it's possible that his father or Jon Arryn had a dislike to them due to the political rivalries of Westeros and shaped his opinion long before RR. On a side note, I think it's a little strange that Lyanna wasn't betrothed to Jaime instead of Robert. They're closer in age and surely Casterly Rock would have been a wealthier alliance than the Stormlands. I assumed that it's because Rickard and Jon had a bit of rivalry with Tywin

Then his disdain would extend to Tyrion or Lancel and it didn't seem to be the case. It's not all the Lannisters Ned was wary about, just the ones that took part in the slaughter: Jaime and Tywin.

He didn't hold a grudge against Cersei until he figured out she was unfaithful to Robert and even then Ned told her so to spare her children.

It was always about the children ever since Ned's first POV

[WakeTheDragon]

A combination of things.

1. Ned doesn't like the Lannisters in general. They rallied to their cause late only after the battle of the trident and murdered the royal children something Ned was appalled with.

2. Jamie broke his vow and murdered the one he was sworn to protect. Ned IS honour.

3. The arrogance Jamie showed sitting in the throne after such horrendous acts was the tipping point.

[Prince of the North]

Yes. Yes, you can. This is what Robert did. This is what Aegon did. It's why they call him The Conqueror. It means you can not possible derive your claim from blood or marriage, but you still have a claim, because you can. Obviously it's not enough to murder the king, but it is a step in the right direction.

If Jaime could under these circumstances is another question, but it's not that far fetched. Tywin had his whole army in King's Landing, an army that was not decimated by war, unlike Ned's. It's not at all unlikely that Jaime would go: "Alright Lord Stark, I killed the king, my father sacked the city, now kindly step aside while Tywin, first of his name, takes his throne with me as the heir." It was neither Jaime's nor Tywin's intention, but when Ned saw him looming up there on the throne, surely this is what he thought was about to happen now.

Couple of things: in the last couple of pages of this thread I've seen several posts that take it as fact that Jaime killed Aerys because he was choosing his father Tywin over Aerys. This is not what actually happened. Jaime killed Aerys to save Kings Landing and he didn't even know for sure who would show up immediately after he did it. So, it looks to the world like that's what he did and, of course, he wouldn't stop to actually explaining himself but we know different.

Also, no, Jaime could not simply declare himself King. Or, if he did, he wouldn't last long. The only reason anyone holds the Iron Throne is if they have the military might to do so. The Lannisters did not in this case. It would have been the Lannisters against the North, the Vale, and the Stormlands, at least. And the rebel forces besides the Lannisters were already in King's Landing. No, I think if Jaime had tried that and Tywin had been stupid enough to try and support him they would have been wiped out pretty quickly.

[Kanali]

Because Jaime is an oathbreaker, and Ned doesn't care if it's friend or foe, he respects honour above all, which is why he was totally fine with Barristan Selmy. If Ned had it his way, he'd probably have executed Jaime on the spot.

[Crowford]

Couple of things: in the last couple of pages of this thread I've seen several posts that take it as fact that Jaime killed Aerys because he was choosing his father Tywin over Aerys. This is not what actually happened. Jaime killed Aerys to save Kings Landing and he didn't even know for sure who would show up immediately after he did it. So, it looks to the world like that's what he did and, of course, he wouldn't stop to actually explaining himself but we know different.

Also, no, Jaime could not simply declare himself King. Or, if he did, he wouldn't last long. The only reason anyone holds the Iron Throne is if they have the military might to do so. The Lannisters did not in this case. It would have been the Lannisters against the North, the Vale, and the Stormlands, at least. And the rebel forces besides the Lannisters were already in King's Landing. No, I think if Jaime had tried that and Tywin had been stupid enough to try and support him they would have been wiped out pretty quickly.

Of course it's not what happened, but since this whole thread boils down to "what does Ned think happened?", it doesn't matter what Jaime's intentions were, just what Ned perceived.

You are right, Tywin taking the throne as a spur-of-the-moment decision would likely fail. But, again, we are not talking about what Jaime wanted to do, we are talking about what Ned felt when he entered that room. And to him it must have seemed very likely that the Lannisters just tried to seize the throne. And even though he soon found out that it wasn't the case, it likely was a contributing factor to his hate for Jaime.

[Swordofthemornin]

Ned had fought Roberts rebellion from the beginning and when he got to KL for a chance at his own justice Jaime and his dad had took it from him, not only that they had waited until the result was likely a Baratheon victory. Under guise of protection Tywins army were welcomed in, sacked the city, and BUTCHERED/RAPED innocent women and children. Jaime had stabbed the one person he was sworn to protect, to give his own life for, in the back. Whatever his opinion on Jaime before then was only reinforced. Jaime jokes, ned is affronted. Two people with differing opinions and POVs but still have a knowing respect of one another's ability in a fight.

[Prince of the North]

Of course it's not what happened, but since this whole thread boils down to "what does Ned think happened?", it doesn't matter what Jaime's intentions were, just what Ned perceived.

You are right, Tywin taking the throne as a spur-of-the-moment decision would likely fail. But, again, we are not talking about what Jaime wanted to do, we are talking about what Ned felt when he entered that room. And to him it must have seemed very likely that the Lannisters just tried to seize the throne. And even though he soon found out that it wasn't the case, it likely was a contributing factor to his hate for Jaime.

Oh, I completely agree with you but with the first part of what I wrote I was just reminding everyone that it's not given that Jaime killed Aerys because he was choosing his father Tywin over Aerys as had seemingly been taken as given in a few previous posts. We know this is not the case because Jaime killed Aerys to prevent him from destroying KL, seated himself on the throne, and waited to see who would come through the door. He really didn't know who it would be. For all he knew at the time it could have been Targaryen soldiers who came through the door and likely overwhelmed and killed him for murdering Aerys.

[silentwanderer]

... Jaime killed Aerys to save Kings Landing and he didn't even know for sure who would show up immediately after he did it. So, it looks to the world like that's what he did and, of course, he wouldn't stop to actually explaining himself but we know different.

Actually, Jaime killed Aerys's pyromancers and only finished the King for good meassure: since the entire world only focusses on the King, he can't really explain himself in this regard.

[Eating My Wings]

We know this is not the case because Jaime killed Aerys to prevent him from destroying KL,

The wildfire plot failed when he killed the pyromancer, so slaying the king wasn't necessary.

[nekrohsis]

Yes, it was. The king had other pyromancers who weren't with him at the time. Jaime killed them a few days after the Sack. If Jaime hadn't killed Aerys, it would have been a matter of minutes before Aerys sent a servant to alert the other pyromancers to set off the wildfire anyway.

[Prince of the North]

Actually, Jaime killed Aerys's pyromancers and only finished the King for good meassure: since the entire world only focusses on the King, he can't really explain himself in this regard.

Sure he could. He could have told Ned and everyone else about Aerys' plans to burn KL. The pyromancers were simply part of that plan.

The wildfire plot failed when he killed the pyromancer, so slaying the king wasn't necessary.

What would have prevented Aerys from continuing to try to bring his plan to fruition? The only way to be sure was to kill Aerys. Also, if Aerys is left alive Jaime not only runs the risk of him fulfilling his plan to destroy KL but he also runs the risk of Aerys simply ordering him executed depending on just who came upon them (i.e. Targ loyalists) after Jaime slew the pyromancers.

[The Frosted King]

The Aerys plot is easily deflated by knocking his old scabby ass out, detaining him, and then promptly opening his mouth and making the situation clear.

It was postponed killing the chief pyromancer Rossart. It could've been completely resolved by sharing what he was privy to.

Aerys is removed to a camp outside the city, under armed watch at all times until Robert arrives.

The other pyromancer minions are idenand arrested, the wildfire safely disposed of.

All this would've likely happened if Jaime stopped and actually thought for a second.

I can't believe people are defending him in this.

And for the record, who's to say a pyrominion wouldn't set off the wildfire in response to the brutal murder of their royal benefactor?

If they're alright burning thousands, would the word of Aerys matter so much as the spirit of his intentions?

Would an Al-Quada terrorist completely abandon his boom button with the brutal death by betraying of Osama, or would such an ignominious death spur his resolve?

By doing what he did, Jaime could've very well forced their hand.

[danm_999]

It really always bothered me that Ned apparently expected Jaime to fight to the death for a monstrous king. Especially after Ned himself rebelled and broke fealty with that same King. Seems very self-righteous to me from my point of view.

He didn't expect that though. He had absolutely no problem with Barristan switching sides; it was how Jaime switched sides that angered Ned.

[The Frosted King]

People have a hard time grasping the nuances of the different situations

[JP Dayne]

So this is something I've often wondered, but it's never been brought up much on the board, (From what I've seen) in my time here. So, why was Ned so contemptous of Jaime?

Did Jaime rob Ned of his vengeance when he slew the Mad King? Did Ned want to do the deed himslef, but Jaime acted before Ned could reach the Throne room. Therefore Ned couldn't avenge his father and brother. Or, was it simply because Jaime broke his vow of the Kingsguard? We know Ned is honorable, and takes such things very seriously, and from there-on Ned seen him as the 'Kingslayer' and an oathbreaker.

A combination of both, maybe?

Ned is quite a simpleton. Not to his fault, really.

Cersei had it spot on when she said brandon was raised to lead and ned to follow.

That being said, he never really liked the Lannisters as a whole, coz, well, they're pretentious snobs, and Jaime is known to kinda make a mission on his life as to appear to be an asshole to others, which clearly doesn't help his case.

When Tywin didn't join in the rebellion, only coming at the end and sacking KL and finding jaime sitting on the throne, Ned had had enough of him. And never bothered to see if there was more to it.

Oh yea, and the kingslayer thing. It seems to me Ned thinks jaime should've protected the mad king to the death, even tho that'd mean fighting his father. Go figures. Ned has a thing for promises and oaths and other windy shit...

[IRON BANK]

So this is something I've often wondered, but it's never been brought up much on the board, (From what I've seen) in my time here. So, why was Ned so contemptous of Jaime?

Did Jaime rob Ned of his vengeance when he slew the Mad King? Did Ned want to do the deed himslef, but Jaime acted before Ned could reach the Throne room. Therefore Ned couldn't avenge his father and brother. Or, was it simply because Jaime broke his vow of the Kingsguard? We know Ned is honorable, and takes such things very seriously, and from there-on Ned seen him as the 'Kingslayer' and an oathbreaker.

A combination of both, maybe?

I think Ned saw Jaime for what he is. Jaime is a man who takes his responsibilities lightly and lives like their is know consequences for his actions.

[Artos Stark]

Ned hates everything about the Lannisters. They were cowards who refused to join the war until it was all but won, they kill children and Jaime was on the other side; instead of dying with his King, Jaime turned his cloak.

[Eating My Wings]

What would have prevented Aerys from continuing to try to bring his plan to fruition? The only way to be sure was to kill Aerys. Also, if Aerys is left alive Jaime not only runs the risk of him fulfilling his plan to destroy KL but he also runs the risk of Aerys simply ordering him executed depending on just who came upon them (i.e. Targ loyalists) after Jaime slew the pyromancers.

Keep him in the throne room and don't allow any servant to take orders from him? And had the loyalists appeared, wouldn't the king's corpse have cemented his fate?