Lyanna's Death

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I am a believer of the R+L=J

However I am not a believer that Lyanna died of childbirth. If there is already a thread like this I apoplogize.

Reasons:

Theon' s dream:

But he also notices faces that he had never known in life. Among them is Lyanna: a slim, sad girl wearing a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown splattered with gore.

GRRM uses the word gore not blood, which means bloodshed by violence, so Lyanna's blood shed was due to violence.

Ned's dream

Rose petals slipped from her palm, dead and black

First I must define the meaning of a blue rose, A blue rose is love that is unattainable, not possible. Which was Rhaegar and Lyanna since they were already married and betrothed respectively

Secondly, the meaning of a black rose is death or hatred for a bygone love. Most people assume that the black rose is just a withered blue rose but we must remember all flowers dont go black when they are dead so this is symbolism. My explanation is that the black rose symbolises that R and L 's love wasn't on good terms before Lyanna died and thus she hated him hence the change of a blue unattainable love rose to a black rose of hatred.

Connection to gore: I suspect that Lyanna might have done something to wake the dragon in Rhaegar and he probably attacked her or He was angry that her brother was rebelling just like joffrey was angry at sansa for her brother being a rebel.

It could be something else, but I don't think Lyanna died of child birth.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I see where you're coming from, but if Rhaegar attacked her she should have died long before she actually died.

If you follow the timeline...Rhaegar hadn't seen Lyanna since he left her at the Tower of Joy to head to King's Landing. He rode to the Trident soon after. She would have been dying of her wounds for a very long time if Rhaegar had harmed her.

Maybe the gore was related to an act of violence not carried out by Rhaegar. What if one of her maids was forced to cut the baby out of her...just throwing a thought out there. :)

[TyrionsFlagon]

This is interesting and I thank you for teaching me the symbolism of a blue rose and black rose. I never knew that.

I'm not sure about your theory that Rhaegar hurt her. Rhaegar had died a while before she died. Rhaegar died, King's Landing was sacked, and then Ned went south to the Tower of Joy. If Rhaegar fatally wounded Lyanna while he was alive, I can't see her surviving weeks or months until Ned showed up.

Also, given how highly people speak of Rhaegar (Jon Con, Barristan, even Ned) I can't imagine him trying to hurt Lyanna.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I see where you're coming from, but if Rhaegar attacked her she should have died long before she actually died.

If you follow the timeline...Rhaegar hadn't seen Lyanna since he left her at the Tower of Joy to head to King's Landing. He rode to the Trident soon after. She would have been dying of her wounds for a very long time if Rhaegar had harmed her.

Maybe the gore was related to an act of violence not carried out by Rhaegar. What if one of her maids was forced to cut the baby out of her...just throwing a thought out there. :)

But if the maid cut it out it wouldn't be out of violence, it would be out of desperation to save the baby.

Also what I am confused about was if the child was born before Rhaegar left or after?

[TyrionsFlagon]

Lady Tippy beat me to it :)

[Nami]

I've always thought the gore stuff is a reference to the deaths of Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia. Like guilt, you know

[TyrionsFlagon]

It couldn't have been before because Lyanna would have died before Ned ever got to her. I think the child was born shortly before Ned arrived.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This is interesting and I thank you for teaching me the symbolism of a blue rose and black rose. I never knew that.

I'm not sure about your theory that Rhaegar hurt her. Rhaegar had died a while before she died. Rhaegar died, King's Landing was sacked, and then Ned went south to the Tower of Joy. If Rhaegar fatally wounded Lyanna while he was alive, I can't see her surviving weeks or months until Ned showed up.

Also, given how highly people speak of Rhaegar (Jon Con, Barristan, even Ned) I can't imagine him trying to hurt Lyanna.

From what we know Lyanna was strong willed, maybe it wasn't a nasty injury but over time without treatment she lost blood, it got infected and she died.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I have a crackpot that somebody was sent to kill her, maybe varys? so Aegon could be king? but Lyanna was strongwilled so the attempt failed, but its too farfetched since the KG were protecting her.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Maybe she gave birth but she was during from it but it was slow so maybe Ned put her out of her misery. Or maybe the gore was from Ned may e he was wounded in the battle and his blood dripped on her

[Lala]

From what we know Lyanna was strong willed, maybe it wasn't a nasty injury but over time without treatment she lost blood, it got infected and she died.

But Ned's PoV constantly flashes back to Lyanna dying in a bed of blood - this isn't very consistent with a festering wound (pus, gore maybe) and much more in tune with exsanguination post-childbirth.

I do like the distinction you made between the roses though - it fits nicely with my headcanon that Lyanna died hating Rhaegar.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

But Ned's PoV constantly flashes back to Lyanna dying in a bed of blood - this isn't very consistent with a festering wound (pus, gore maybe) and much more in tune with exsanguination post-childbirth.

I do like the distinction you made between the roses though - it fits nicely with my headcanon that Lyanna died hating Rhaegar.

Yea thats true

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Maybe she gave birth but she was during from it but it was slow so maybe Ned put her out of her misery. Or maybe the gore was from Ned may e he was wounded in the battle and his blood dripped on her

That could be possible...but I think its too deep for it too be Ned's blood.

[redviper9]

I am a believer of the R+L=J

However I am not a believer that Lyanna died of childbirth. If there is already a thread like this I apoplogize.

Reasons:

Theon' s dream:

GRRM uses the word gore not blood, which means bloodshed by violence, so Lyanna's blood shed was due to violence.

Ned's dream

First I must define the meaning of a blue rose, A blue rose is love that is unattainable, not possible. Which was Rhaegar and Lyanna since they were already married and betrothed respectively

Secondly, the meaning of a black rose is death or hatred for a bygone love. Most people assume that the black rose is just a withered blue rose but we must remember all flowers dont go black when they are dead so this is symbolism. My explanation is that the black rose symbolises that R and L 's love wasn't on good terms before Lyanna died and thus she hated him hence the change of a blue unattainable love rose to a black rose of hatred.

Connection to gore: I suspect that Lyanna might have done something to wake the dragon in Rhaegar and he probably attacked her or He was angry that her brother was rebelling just like joffrey was angry at sansa for her brother being a rebel.

It could be something else, but I don't think Lyanna died of child birth.

The timeline does not add up. Given what we know of travel times from the narrative, it would have taken Ned at least one month to travel the distance from the Ruby Ford to the Tower of Joy. Keep in mind that he also made stops in King's Landing and Storm's End, and that he still had to find out exactly where Lyanna was, so we're looking at somewhere between one to two months between Rhaegar's death and Lyanna's. Remember also that Rhaegar had to get to the Ruby Ford from Dorne, so it had probably been two to three months since he and Lyanna had last seen each other. If Rhaegar had truly wounded Lyanna that badly, it stands to reason that she would have succumbed much earlier.

Furthermore, given what we know about Rhaegar, it doesn't appear that he was prone to fits of rage. Melancholy and obsessive drive, yes, but not rage. It was Viserys -- according to Barristan Selmy, at least -- not Rhaegar, that took the most after Aerys (ASoS, Daenerys VI).

Given Ned's description of what he found at the ToJ, it seems that Lyanna either continued bleeding after giving birth, or contracted something similar to puerperal fever, which occurs when a woman gives birth in unsanitary conditions.

[Luna Plath]

The "gore" could refer to afterbirth, or a hemorrhage, especially if she died in a "bed of blood." Postpartum hemorrhage is one of the leading causes maternal death, both in the developed and developing worlds, so it could likely be the cause of Lyanna's death, which could be the symbolism behind the black rose.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

This is interesting and I thank you for teaching me the symbolism of a blue rose and black rose. I never knew that.

Me too! ^_^

Also, given how highly people speak of Rhaegar (Jon Con, Barristan, even Ned) I can't imagine him trying to hurt Lyanna.

I think this is what is giving me pause. From what we know of Rhaegar, he didn't seem to be very violent. I also doubt that he would punish Lyanna for something she didn't do, unlike the sadistic Joffrey. I believe that he left the Tower of Joy for King's Landing to rectify things when he heard that they were spinning out of control.

But if the maid cut it out it wouldn't be out of violence, it would be out of desperation to save the baby.

Also what I am confused about was if the child was born before Rhaegar left or after?

You have a point.

I'm pretty sure the baby was born afterwards. I believe that Lyanna was nearing the end of her pregnancy and not doing well enough to travel, which is why Rhaegar left her at the Tower of Joy.

From what we know Lyanna was strong willed, maybe it wasn't a nasty injury but over time without treatment she lost blood, it got infected and she died.

I don't see the baby surviving if that would have been the case. Plus, you would think they would have cleaned her up a bit.

Also, Ned's recollection of finding her in a "bed of blood" doesn't necessarily mean she was in a literal bed of blood. "Bed of blood" can also refer to complications after childbirth such as illness and infection.

Maybe she gave birth but she was during from it but it was slow so maybe Ned put her out of her misery. Or maybe the gore was from Ned may e he was wounded in the battle and his blood dripped on her

That's a good idea for the term "gore".

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The timeline does not add up. Given what we know of travel times from the narrative, it would have taken Ned at least one month to travel the distance from the Ruby Ford to the Tower of Joy. Keep in mind that he also made stops in King's Landing and Storm's End, and that he still had to find out exactly where Lyanna was, so we're looking at somewhere between one to two months between Rhaegar's death and Lyanna's. Remember also that Rhaegar had to get to the Ruby Ford from Dorne, so it had probably been two to three months since he and Lyanna had last seen each other. If Rhaegar had truly wounded Lyanna that badly, it stands to reason that she would have succumbed much earlier.

Furthermore, given what we know about Rhaegar, it doesn't appear that he was prone to fits of rage. Melancholy and obsessive drive, yes, but not rage. It was Viserys -- according to Barristan Selmy, at least -- not Rhaegar, that took the most after Aerys (ASoS, Daenerys VI).

Given Ned's description of what he found at the ToJ, it seems that Lyanna either continued bleeding after giving birth, or contracted something similar to puerperal fever, which occurs when a woman gives birth in unsanitary conditions.

I don't mean Rhaegar was mad I just mean Lyanna could of done something to anger, and yes my only problem with this theory is the timeline, however I still don't believe Lyanna died from childbirth but from gore.

[Alexander the Drake]

Lyanna seems to have died from an infection, possibly caused by childbirth under less-than-optimal conditions.

From Ned's AGOT chapter when Robert arrives at Winterfell: "Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been been as faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes."

She then dies right after, having given up her hold on life, with rose petals clutched in her hand.

That the room still smells of blood could mean a recent birthing, ongoing bleeding in the aftermath, or just really poor hygiene with few servants around to clean it up.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The "gore" could refer to afterbirth, or a hemorrhage, especially if she died in a "bed of blood." Postpartum hemorrhage is one of the leading causes maternal death, both in the developed and developing worlds, so it could likely be the cause of Lyanna's death, which could be the symbolism behind the black rose.

I like comparing bed of blood to bed of roses, the latter meaning a happy life, so I think bed of blood could be the opposite meaning Lyanna, lived a tragic life.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Now that I think about it asking Ned to put her out of rr misery isn't possible as even if she was in pain a mother would want to spend as much time with her child as she could