R'hillor - The Devil?

[concera]

The idea is pretty far off from the truth in my opinion. The connection of Rh'llor with the Christian Satan requires readers to only pay attention to a few details twisted to fit his description, and to ignore others that suggest something else. Yes, Beric is revived six times with each reincarnation lesser than the last. Yes, the red priests are not moral purists. However to say that "So Rh'llor likes fire...Guess who else likes fire? SATAN," is pretty extremist. The bit about sacrifices is also moot - nearly every religion in the Song demands sacrifice (excluding perhaps the Seven). The Drowned God, the old gods, the great horse lord, and arguably the god of death all demand sacrifice.

Rh'llor is instead associated with almost all that is good and strong in the world. The dragons are never directly stated to be connected to him, but they are called 'fire made flesh' among other things. The warmth of fire in the face of Winter is a powerful symbol for Rh'llor, and his temple purchases slaves such that they can be raised in his name - this servitude far surpasses the standard their lives would have taken otherwise.

The other flaw - that the red priests personified Rh'llor's great enemy from the Northern people - can easily be argued away by history and geography. The red priests come from Essos, most likely Old Valyria before the Doom. They would never have had reason to ever set eyes upon the First Men. The Targaryens were never depicted as stern followers of Rh'llor, so they would not have cared to personify the cold. This whole theory is mostly crackpot conspiracy.

[Associate Maester]

Martin modeled R'hllor after Ahura Mazda the God of order/truth/light/wisdom/truth in Zoroastrianism. Martin based the faith of R'hllor quite heavily on Zoroastrianism down to temple structures. Martin has said religion will play an increasing role, but we'll never any direct intervention by any Gods--or even whether they exist or not. I'd also mention that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced Post-Exilic Israelite religion. The concept of an afterlife that is reward or punishment is one that Judaism adopted from Zoroastrianism. Prior to that, all people went to Sheol (the generic glum underworld present in all Near-Eastern religions).

[A Man Has Said]

I've been thinking about this myself over the last couple of days. You're on the right track when you bring up the idea of dualism - I didn't know it was an element of Zoroastrianism, but it is part of the Gnostic concept of things.

Dualism is the belief that there is an eternal cosmic struggle going on between two polar opposite forces. In Gnosticism it's good and evil, in the religion of R'hllor it's Light and Darkness. I don't think it necessarily translates to the same thing, and even if it does I don't personally feel that R'hllor can be assumed to be on the 'good' side. Frankly I think it's a death cult. They practice human sacrifice, particularly if the sacrifice is to the ancient element of fire. (Melisandre must have had a frickin' orgasm when she conned Stannis into sacrificing thousands of his men to Tyrion's wildfire flames. What an accomplishment.)

Generally speaking, I think we're hard-wired to think of life as good and death as evil. By that standard alone, you have to put R'hllor in the 'evil' category. And more so than the House of Black and White's god, whose function is to reconcile people to death as a natural process, or the Seven's Stranger, who is at least neutral. The Red God (as he is called by Jaqen H'gar) wishes to strip the lives painfully away from those who wish to live, and preferably from the innocent. (Mel tells Stannis that the sacrifice of an innocent victim produces more powerful magic in "A Storm of Swords.")

R'hllor also has it in common with the Others that he can raise the dead in a zombie-like undead state. I don't think that bodes well. And a lot of his perceived power seems to be based on illusion, - like the glamours that Mel casts, in particular her creation of Stannis' fake 'Lightbringer' sword. We're also hard-wired to think of truth as good and falseness/lies as evil. R'hllor has often been revealed to be false, especially in the outcome of Mel's prophecies.

I suspect that in the upcoming novels he'll be revealed to be something entirely different from the way Melisandre has been presenting him. I really don't think R'hllor is going to be involved in the Salvation of the Westeros World.

[Leif]

Most of this is only 'confirmed' by Mel. Who knows how much of it is true.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't put the Red God and the Great Other is devil-Jesus terms or Jesus-devil terms. Rather, I think it's more of a yin-yang, dualist, two-sides-of-the-same-coin sort of thing. It's not that one's good and one's evil. They represent two opposing forces, and it's not about one overcoming the other, but rather, bringing the two into balance.

[The Red Melli]

I think it's too early to say R'hllor is evil. We don't know that much of religion is asoiaf and we possibly never will.

And I personaly think there is no good or bad side when it comes to religion or gods.

All the gods in Westeros looks the same to me no one is good or bad in my eyes.

We only see them from the outside we only see the worshippers and priests.

I also think people are misunderstood when it comes to Melisandre as GRRM said. And i'm 100% sure we will see a good side of Mel in WoW.

And with the fake lightbringer I believe Mel wants to win Stannis' trust for the greater good to help AA.

I don't believe there's a good god (if you want me to put them in a category) when all the gods requires sacrifices painfull or not.

[J. Stargaryen]

In connection with this idea, the name Lightbringer is equivalent to Lucifer. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

ETA: tried to post the first paragraph here, but the Greek and Latin characters made a mess of it.

[Cold Hands Luke]

I have had this thought. The devil or dark side is R'hillor and the good is the old gods. Then there is who is the drowned god? I do believe there is something to him and I think maybe in some way the fact that Sam and Tyrion are technically iron born now may mean something. I also had the thought that Victarion may be intrigued with Maqorro now because he laughed at the drown god. Instead of succumbing to him and partying in the watery hall, he impossibly lived.

[Hielo y Fuego]

Martin modeled R'hllor after Ahura Mazda the God of order/truth/light/wisdom/truth in Zoroastrianism. Martin based the faith of R'hllor quite heavily on Zoroastrianism down to temple structures. Martin has said religion will play an increasing role, but we'll never any direct intervention by any Gods--or even whether they exist or not. I'd also mention that Zoroastrianism heavily influenced Post-Exilic Israelite religion. The concept of an afterlife that is reward or punishment is one that Judaism adopted from Zoroastrianism. Prior to that, all people went to Sheol (the generic glum underworld present in all Near-Eastern religions).

:agree:

Not to mention that not everything in fantasy is influenced by Judeo-Christian beliefs. IMO, there's no such thing as the "devil", be it in Westeros, Essos or in any other continent in ASoIaF's world.

[Little Bird of Varys]

If I've learned anything playing Rpg (Old World of Darkness), who offers power easily as in the case of R'hllor is closer to a really bad demon than a god.

[The Red Melli]

If I've learned anything playing Rpg (Old World of Darkness), who offers power easily as in the case of R'hllor is closer to a really bad demon than a god.

I think there is no good god in ASOIAF.

[Little Bird of Varys]

I think there is no good god in ASOIAF.

I also think the same. But there are the 'worst'. In Werewolf: The Apocalypse, when all is really too bad, some have chosen to worship Wyld, no way that an entity good, just not worse than Weaver and the Wyrm.

Ok, I stopped. I promised myself never again narrate or play rpg, again comparing mythology of the Old World of Darkness with GRRM will not do me any good.

[mindchap]

I doubt it will be as black and white as that. I don't think there will be a truly evil entity when it's all said and done.

[Little Bird of Varys]

I doubt it will be as black and white as that. I don't think there will be a truly evil entity when it's all said and done.

The same could be said about the Wyrm, who allegedly wanted to destroy the entire universe and had to be stopped ... ok, now it stopped.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

The devil isn't a Christian concept at all and far predates Christianity.

I see no reason why R'holler couldn't actually be ASOIAF's "Adversary" figure since The Old Gods seem much more benign.

[Conmaicne Mara]

Uh... As far as I know the "Devil" is a christian concept. So no, R'Hllor is not the Devil because there's no such thing as Jesus Christ in Westeros.

I don't buy into the R'hllor=devil theory, but the devil is not "a christian concept".

[Lady Acorns]

What I find fascinating is the potential for Light to be a force for good (ie day) or destruction (ie fire) - it is all subjective and contextual. Maybe a bit of RE required for me..............