Pitty for Cersei

[The Great Walrus]

I have no sympathy for Cersei in any way, shape or form. I normally sympathize women in abusive relationships, but I can't bring myself to feel bad for her.

[Queen Daenerys]

Yes lets wish death on the High Septon for making someone walk naked through the streets. Where as the multiple murderer of babies, selling women into slavery, handing over loyal followers to be tortured, physically abusing babies, murdering innocent men, having innocent men tortured and mutilated etc no problems with her. The High Septon is everything wrong with humanity.

She wasn't punished for that though. The WoS was for having sex out of wedlock. He's a fanatic and a misogynist.

[Eli Stark]

As been mentioned you are compassionate and that's never wrong.

But I also think that both Jaime and Cersei are kind of getting the same sort of punishment and its entirely possible, or at least I hope so, that they will both start on their redemption arc. In Jaime's case he was a great warrior and when that was taken away from him he was forced to re-invent himself a bit. Cersei was the great beauty of the realm and now when that's taken away from her she may be forced to re-invent herself. Or I'm just grasping at straws here for Cersei's sake.

I don't think you are grasping at straws. He could show them both on a redemption arc, or even more interesting, he can show how two almost identical people can end on completely different paths. Although they both have been stripped of what they essentially were and forced to make some tough decisions, I think they each will have the power to choose. Jaime's choices can be argued to be a type of redemption, whereas I see Cersie refusing to change, and by her own choices, is going to come to a pretty ugly end.

Completely off topic, whenever I see your signature, I think "But Tywin did start the war." Cat took Tyrion (could be argued as beginning the war), but Tywin was the first to actually attack with soldiers when he started to pillage and burn the Riverlands. Doesn't really matter though.

[mrunderhill]

She wasn't punished for that though. The WoS was for having sex out of wedlock. He's a fanatic and a misogynist.

We have been through this and she got the worst possible punishment, because she guilty of other crimes, though he would struggle to prove them. However, people are quick to forget the punishments the Kettleblacks are getting. They are going to be killed, but he is a misogynist? Nobody proposes we feel sorry for Amory Lorch or the wine seller. Cersei has gotten off extemely lightly for her multiple heinous crimes.

[Blueberry Stark]

I am perplexed when people find the WoS to be a gratifying or deserved punishment. Although Cersei is a horrible person, I can't relish anyone receiving such a sexualized, degrading punishment. I do find the punishment to be a form of sexual assault, but threads get locked if you argue about sexual assault so I'll leave it at that. Perhaps what makes Cersei so pitiable in the WoS chapter is how we see her transition from being defiant, to fearful, to terrified, to shamed, completely. I think many compassionate readers feel for her during this ordeal. Yes, we see much more awful punishments meted out throughout ASOIAF, but the reason people feel so compassionate towards Cersei, who arguably doesn't deserve it, is because we go THROUGH it with her. It's a tough read.

[Eli Stark]

Meh. This question is really sort of hard because I do on some level and don't on others. The whole WOS was just appalling to me and I do want Cersei to have her revenge on the fanatical High Septon - he and his entire band of fanatics can just go be sword fodder for the Others afaic. It was the epitomy of patriarchal crap and I agree with the OP that it was a kind of rape which does come through via the excessive bathing. I also think both Myrcella and Tommen do not deserve to pay for their mother's sins but I fear that is unavoidable, at least for Tommen as he is the one currently in the IT.

All that said I don't think the walk broke Cersei though it definitely made her more paranoid and less mentally stable, so I fully expect her to be up to her old games in so much as that is possible as soon as she can. The problem I see is that she's really alone in KL right now so I have no idea how much power she actually has, with Mace as Hand she won't have the same power she's used to, so will likely have to find other ways to use it. Plus it was clear that the whole Small Counsel was against her raising Tommen any further, so I don't know if she will be allowed to be Regent. I think she will definitely bring about a messy end for herself and it will be well deserved, but I'd like her to get her licks in at the High Septon first.

I don't care too much if she gets her revenge on the High Septon. Yeah, the guy is a crazy fanatic, but fanatics come to power as a result of bad leadership. You don't usually have a good leader in charge when fanatics come to power. In this case, Cersei cared way more about making sure Lannisters were superior to all other houses than about taking care of the people of her realm. Remember when Kevan turns her down for being the Hand, he tells her Cersei, open your eyes. the realm is in ruin (paraphrasing). Basically, her terrible leadership and the way the regular people have suffered due to the high lords fighting, a fanatic whack job was able to take power.

[Queen Daenerys]

We have been through this and she got the worst possible punishment, because she guilty of other crimes, though he would struggle to prove them. However, people are quick to forget the punishments the Kettleblacks are getting. They are going to be killed, but he is a misogynist? Nobody proposes we feel sorry for Amory Lorch or the wine seller. Cersei has gotten off extemely lightly for her multiple heinous crimes.

I don't agree, but as you say, it's been discussed before. I do feel sorry for the Kettleblacks, and I disapprove of their punishments too. That's why I hope Cersei's gonna have her revenge.

I don't think she's on a redemption arc, she's gone too far for that, IMO she will take a path that will contrast with Jaime's redemption. .

[mrunderhill]

I am perplexed when people find the WoS to be a gratifying or deserved punishment. Although Cersei is a horrible person, I can't relish anyone receiving such a sexualized, degrading punishment. I do find the punishment to be a form of sexual assault, but threads get locked if you argue about sexual assault so I'll leave it at that. Perhaps what makes Cersei so pitiable in the WoS chapter is how we see her transition from being defiant, to fearful, to terrified, to shamed, completely. I think many compassionate readers feel for her during this ordeal. Yes, we see much more awful punishments meted out throughout ASOIAF, but the reason people feel so compassionate towards Cersei, who arguably doesn't deserve it, is because we go THROUGH it with her. It's a tough read.

Perhaps people should use their imagination more and then imagine what other characters are going through. Like the poor woman in Casterly Rock, who first has her babies murdered and then is sold into slavery. Or perhaps the poor whore, he watches her baby girl Barra murdered in front of her.

Sexual humiliation, torture and mutilation are common practices. As it stands these are all abhorrent forms of punishment and we would be against all of them.

I think there is something wrong when a Kettleblack if being stripped NAKED and whipped bloody, but hey it's Cersei we should feel sorry for. Kids get their hands chopped off for stealing some bread, but hey it's the child killer we should feel sympathy for.

The Mountain went through one of the most excruciating deaths in the series. I don't notice any sympathy for him. Odd that people can relish that.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Yes lets wish death on the High Septon for making someone walk naked through the streets. Where as the multiple murderer of babies, selling women into slavery, handing over loyal followers to be tortured, physically abusing babies, murdering innocent men, having innocent men tortured and mutilated etc no problems with her. The High Septon is everything wrong with humanity.

RME I never said Cersei was a nice person, that she had done nice things, or that the WOS had absolved her of her many many sins. Just that it is the one place where I want her to win. Sorry but armed religious fanatics are about the most dangerous thing you can have in a country and I do see the High Septon as a threat that needs to be dealt with. Perhaps we can take a couple steps back from your hyperbolic interpretation of what I said.

[Mad Monkey]

I think of Cersei's arc as being similar to Theon's, in that these are pretty loathesome people who get punished in such an elaborately sadistic manner that they actually become sympathetic to some of us, if only because we want their suffering to end. Though Cersei isn't as far gone as Theon is, I kept thinking that the High Sparrow would have been smarter to just confine her to a cell until her trial or let her out on bail instead of doing the Walk of Shame thing.

I can't say that I feel sorry for Cersei though. I hope she loses her trial, and I actually don't even think that she's entitled to revenge since she personally orchestrated all of these horrific crimes. The Walk of Shame was a bad idea but only because I don't consider sexual humiliation to be an acceptable way to treat anyone. I'd actually feel better with a quick, clean decapitation, if that makes sense. Just give her a fair trial, find her guilty, and put an end to it.

The Mountain went through one of the most excruciating deaths in the series. I don't notice any sympathy for him. Odd that people can relish that.

It's probably because we didn't have his POV. Gregor is a pretty opaque character. He gets headaches and kills a lot of people. He barely constitutes a person.

[Jon of the Dead]

Cersei is one of my favorite characters, and I sure as hell feel sorry for her

But I don't know what GRRM was trying to accomplish with the WoS: I don't think it was an enjoyable type of revenge, like the OP says, but it wasn't a punishment strong enough to redeem her after all the horrible things she's done. I mean, it was a horrible punishment, of course, but mainly i've seen people feeling sorry for her, but not necessarily rooting for her like with Jaime or Theon.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I don't care too much if she gets her revenge on the High Septon. Yeah, the guy is a crazy fanatic, but fanatics come to power as a result of bad leadership. You don't usually have a good leader in charge when fanatics come to power. In this case, Cersei cared way more about making sure Lannisters were superior to all other houses than about taking care of the people of her realm. Remember when Kevan turns her down for being the Hand, he tells her Cersei, open your eyes. the realm is in ruin (paraphrasing). Basically, her terrible leadership and the way the regular people have suffered due to the high lords fighting, a fanatic whack job was able to take power.

Not arguing that but the fact is that now the High Septon is a problem, one basically created by Cersei since she had the old one killed, and it is the only problem I'd like her to successfully solve before she goes down in what I expect to be spectacular fashion, and the only place where she has anything close to my pity. And this is only because like others have said the sexual exploitation aspect of it appalls me when done to anyone. My pity is really for her children who in no way deserve to pay for their mother's sins. As for the Kettleblacks, they knew what they were getting into and willfully played the game, they just lost.

[mrunderhill]

RME I never said Cersei was a nice person, that she had done nice things, or that the WOS had absolved her of her many many sins. Just that it is the one place where I want her to win. Sorry but armed religious fanatics are about the most dangerous thing you can have in a country and I do see the High Septon as a threat that needs to be dealt with. Perhaps we can take a couple steps back from your hyperbolic interpretation of what I said.

Some of the worst and most brutal rulers were not religious fanatics, but practical leaders such as Stalin. Anyway that is besides the point.

I think of Cersei's arc as being similar to Theon's, in that these are pretty loathesome people who get punished in such an elaborately sadistic manner that they actually become sympathetic to some of us, if only because we want their suffering to end. Though Cersei isn't as far gone as Theon is, I kept thinking that the High Sparrow would have been smarter to just confine her to a cell until her trial or let her out on bail instead of doing the Walk of Shame thing.

This is the problem since when is walking naked as bad as being castrated, sexually assaulted, flayed alive, repeatedly beaten, having your teeth smashed in and probably more? Jaime goes through far worse than Cersei and we are described this, but I don't hear half the sympathy. Virtually all the punishments in Westeros should have as disgusted. How about spending time with a war veteran and some people will begin to realise the impact of having hands lopped off. I hope this is just a case of most posters never experiencing things like this, so the WOS is the only thing they can relate to.

[PrimeRhaegar]

nope not one ounce of empathy/sympathy/pity i feel nothing when anything bad happens to cersei. still i will admit that she is a great and interesting character

[Blueberry Stark]

Perhaps people should use their imagination more and then imagine what other characters are going through. Like the poor woman in Casterly Rock, who first has her babies murdered and then is sold into slavery. Or perhaps the poor whore, he watches her baby girl Barra murdered in front of her.

Sexual humiliation, torture and mutilation are common practices. As it stands these are all abhorrent forms of punishment and we would be against all of them.

I think there is something wrong when a Kettleblack if being stripped NAKED and whipped bloody, but hey it's Cersei we should feel sorry for. Kids get their hands chopped off for stealing some bread, but hey it's the child killer we should feel sympathy for.

The Mountain went through one of the most excruciating deaths in the series. I don't notice any sympathy for him. Odd that people can relish that.

First of all, I would appreciate a less condescending tone. Whether or not I suffer from a lack of imagination, the answer to the mystery of why some people seem to feel more sympathy towards Cersei than other characters is because we are inside her head when she undergoes this harsh, humiliating punishment. I don't find it easy to read, and I have compassion for her. It's really good writing on Martin's part. If we had Gregor's POV during his suffering, or KB's during his flogging, I'm sure that I would feel for them as well. Just because heinous, tortuous punishments are commonplace throughout the series doesn't mean that we have to be desensitized to reading about someone we don't like suffering.

By the way, I have no problem with anyone who is indifferent to Cersei's suffering. I was simply expressing my reaction to reading about this degrading experience.

[Mad Monkey]

This is the problem since when is walking naked as bad as being castrated, sexually assaulted, flayed alive, repeatedly beaten, having your teeth smashed in and probably more?

Whoa, careful with that. Did I suggest that the punishments were the same? If so, I didn't mean to, since clearly what Theon went through was not only more brutal but harder to bounce back from. My original point was only to contrast two despicable characters who are not seen as more sympathetic by some because bad things happened to them. This does NOT require that the bad things in question be identical or similarly painful.

As far as Jaime goes, for me it's important to note that Jaime lost his hand at around the same time that he became a more heroic character (jumping into the bear pit for Brienne is the big one for me, though he does do some other neat stuff). So it's almost as if I skipped over the pity party phase and just started liking him as a person, which isn't the feeling that I have towards Cersei or even Theon. So it's less that Jaime's suffering isn't important, but that he doesn't wallow in it as much so the readers aren't necessarily invited to either -- I compare that to Theon's chapters which are almost painful to even read for me, and the Walk of Shame which is just uncomfortable for me to read. Basically, I like Jaime and pity Cersei and Theon.

[King in the North Carolina]

Back in college, I used to run naked through the streets all the time.

It's a blast!

:)

[mrunderhill]

First of all, I would appreciate a less condescending tone. Whether or not I suffer from a lack of imagination, the answer to the mystery of why some people seem to feel more sympathy towards Cersei than other characters is because we are inside her head when she undergoes this harsh, humiliating punishment. I don't find it easy to read, and I have compassion for her. It's really good writing on Martin's part. If we had Gregor's POV during his suffering, or KB's during his flogging, I'm sure that I would feel for them as well. Just because heinous, tortuous punishments are commonplace throughout the series doesn't mean that we have to be desensitized to reading about someone we don't like suffering.

By the way, I have no problem with anyone who is indifferent to Cersei's suffering. I was simply expressing my reaction to reading about this degrading experience.

I have no problem with people sympathising with her. This is precisely why most western countries don't have such punishments. It's because they make you sink to the level of the criminal and dehumanises them.. It's not a question of being desensitized, but showing sympathy for victims, who have suffered more and done less. This board is full of threads about how we hope that Cersei kills the High Septon. It's not full of threads about the general punishment in Westeros.

Yes Martin uses imagery of the Passion for Cersei's WOS, but sometimes we need to analyse things a bit deeper and understand why such punishments are no longer acceptable. Instead of falling for the emotive writing and forgetting that 90% of punishments are reprehensible.

[Lord Damian]

Cersei is so vicious and cruel... It is hard if not impossible to not hate her, if you think about how many people have suffered due to her greed and aroogance. I feel no sympathy for her and her's.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I have no pity for Cersei. She's had some terrible experiences, but that does not excuse her actions. I won't say she deserved the walk of shame, but I still don't pity her.