Did Jon Camp Outside Bran's Cave?

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

Please read the following passages; Jon's chapter from A Storm of Swords, and Bran's chapters from A Dance with Dragons. Could it be that the cave system that Jon and the wildlings camped at prior to scaling the wall was the same cave system where Bran later finds the Last Greenseer and the Children of the Forest?

Is it possible that Bran's recollection of the story of Gendel's childen while in the caves a device on GRRM's part to allow us to connect the two caves, and more importantly, the possibility that a chance of escape using Gorne's way is possible from Bran's cave?

"The mouth of the cave was a cleft in the rock barely wide enough for a horse, half concealed behind a soldier pine. It opened to the north, so the glows of the fires within would not be visible from the Wall. Even if by some mischance a patrol should happen to pass atop the Wall tonight, they would see nothing but hills and pines and the icy sheen of starlight on a half-frozen lake. Mance Rayder had planned his thrust well.

Within the rock, the passage descended twenty feet before it opened out onto a space as large as Winterfell’s Great Hall. Cookfires burned amongst the columns, their smoke rising to blacken the stony ceiling. The horses had been hobbled along one wall, beside a shallow pool. A sinkhole in the center of the floor opened on what might have been an even greater cavern below, though the darkness made it hard to tell. Jon could hear the soft rushing sound of an underground stream somewhere below as well."

-A Storm of Swords-Chapter 26: Jon

“Is this the only way in?” asked Meera.

“The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole.” That was all he had to say. Not even Hodor could climb down into a sinkhole with Bran heavy on his back, and Jojen could no more walk three leagues than run a thousand. Meera eyed the hill above. “The way looks clear.”

“Looks,” the ranger muttered darkly. “Can you feel the cold? There’s something here.

Where are they?”

“Inside the cave?” suggested Meera.

“The cave is warded. They cannot pass.” The ranger used his sword to point. “You can see the entrance there. Halfway up, between the weirwoods, that cleft in the rock.”

“I see it,” said Bran. Ravens were flying in and out.

-A Dance with Dragons-Chapter 13: Bran

The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. “Men should not go wandering in this place,” Leaf warned them. “The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand

of your man-years.

-A Dance with Dragons - Chapter 34: Bran

“I heard water. I wanted t’see how deep the cave went.” She pointed with the torch. “There’s a passage goes down further. I followed it a hundred paces before I turned back.”

“A dead end?”

“You know nothing, Jon Snow. It went on and on and on. There are hundreds o’ caves in these hills, and down deep they all connect. There’s even a way under your Wall. Gorne’s Way.”

“Gorne,” said Jon. “Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall.”

“Aye,” said Ygritte. “Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o’ free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o’ Winterfell fell upon them.”

...

“This way under the Wall was lost as well?”

“Some have searched for it. Them that go too deep find Gendel’s children, and Gendel’s children are always hungry.”

A Storm of Swords - Chapter 26: Jon

There were more side passages after that, more chambers, and Bran heard dripping water somewhere to his right. When he looked off that way, he saw eyes looking back at them, slitted eyes that glowed bright, reflecting back the torchlight. More children, he told himself, the girl is not the only one, but Old Nan’s tale of Gendel’s children came back to him as well.

-A Dance of Dragons - Chapter 13: Bran

[Røyksopp]

Holy shit. I can buy that.

[Rhymes with Weak]

Well, if this is true. I wonder if the Children of the Forest watched Jon doing it.

[Dire-Lion]

But does this be that COTF are really Gendel's children and are evil?

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

But does this be that COTF are really Gendel's children and are evil?

I don't think this is necessarily true, but it is possible that people exploring the cave systems over the years may have glimpsed the Children of the Forest and developed the mythos of Gendel's children to explain what they saw.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

Wow.. four replies on my big theory? Well then, I am selfishly bumping my own thread like a spoiled little child.. :lol:

[The Fallen]

` It could be the same system, but with so many leagues in between that they might as well be in different continents.

But a good find nonetheless. Good catch, good eye, all that good stuff.

[King of Winters]

Yes, I've seen people suggest Jon was by the back door of the cave, and that he'll go back there in TWOW to meet up with Bran, and maybe take him back with him.

[Neo]

This is an excellent catch, Moon-Pale Maiden.

I always thought that Bran's cave was further North than we've ever been, but this arguments suggests not.

There is also speculation that Benjen's last ranging was actually a quest to seek out Bloodraven. If the cave system is as vast as we think, he could very well still be around, lost in the caves...

[The Fallen]

` Bean's cave is farther than we've ever been. If this is the same system of caves then it speaks to the vastness of the system.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

Yes, I've seen people suggest Jon was by the back door of the cave, and that he'll go back there in TWOW to meet up with Bran, and maybe take him back with him.

I had figured that maybe Meera and Jojen, having explored the caves might decide to try and risk it.. But I don't think they'd find the way unless Jojen has a greendream to lead them. But then again, Jojen knows he is doomed to die, so he seems to have given up based on his gloominess in the last two Bran chapters in Dance. I can't imagine that anyone would be able to find their way through the caves without guidance, a whole load of torches, and food. They would have to be under the caves for weeks and weeks, and the possibility of getting lost is so high - even the children don't know it, based on what Leaf said.

I worry about is Bloodraven's wrath if Bran escapes without his leave. He could hound his dreams and send ravens after him night and day driving the poor boy completely insane.

[King of Winters]

I had figured that maybe Meera and Jojen, having explored the caves might decide to try and risk it.. But I don't think they'd find the way unless Jojen has a greendream to lead them. But then again, Jojen knows he is doomed to die, so he seems to have given up based on his gloominess in the last two Bran chapters in Dance. I can't imagine that anyone would be able to find their way through the caves without guidance, a whole load of torches, and food. They would have to be under the caves for weeks and weeks, and the possibility of getting lost is so high - even the children don't know it, based on what Leaf said.

I worry about is Bloodraven's wrath if Bran escapes without his leave. He could hound his dreams and send ravens after him night and day driving the poor boy completely insane.

What I think will happen is Jon will go north in search of Bran, with other people, including Melisandre. When Jon finds the back door to the cave he'll go in and then find Bran, Meera, Jojen and Hodor. Mels will then realise Bloodraven was the wooden face she saw in the flames and attempts to kill him, and maybe Bran as well. Jon will then kill Mels after she kills Bloodraven.

[Don Roberto]

Nice catch, Moon-Pale Maiden!

The Lands of Ice and Fire place the three-eyed crow's cave entrance actually not quite far from the Fist of the First Men - somewhat to the east of it, but at the same latitude. So it could very well be one huge cave system.

[Mikkel]

I like this theory - whether anything will come of it is unknown, but good find in either case!

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

Nice catch, Moon-Pale Maiden!

The Lands of Ice and Fire place the three-eyed crow's cave entrance actually not quite far from the Fist of the First Men - somewhat to the east of it, but at the same latitude. So it could very well be one huge cave system.

First, thank you!

In the passages, Bran's cave is mentioned to be 3 leagues south of the sinkhole - now, 1 league = 3.4 miles, so it's roughly 10 miles apart. The Magnar of Thenn says to Jon that they are somewhere between Greyguard and Stonedoor. Bran crossed the wall at the Nightfort, which is only two castles to the east of where Jon went over the wall. So, they were relatively in the same area.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

The CotF are Grendel's children. Wow! I like this theory! :)

[Light a wight tonight]

A huge system of caverns isn't impossible, even one extending to the sub-sub basement of the crypts at Winterfell. I sort of like the COTF as Gendel's Children, too.

I just got the impression that the COTF's cave was a lot further from the Wall, mostly based on Bran & Friends' travel time.

[Roadside Rose]

Great catch! I like the idea of the cave visited by Jon, and later by Bran being the same. Though I am not sure if Gendel's children are the COTF. It never looked like COTF wanted the flesh of men. And Gendel existed 3000 years ago, but COTF seem to be around longer (known to inhabit Westeros about 12,000 years ago and longer).

The wildlings say that many have searched for Gorne's Way, but some are lost. They believe this is because they meet Gendel's children, who are always hungry for the flesh of men (III: 300, 301)

[Dire-Lion]

Great catch! I like the idea of the cave visited by Jon, and later by Bran being the same. Though I am not sure if Gendel's children are the COTF. It never looked like COTF wanted the flesh of men. And Gendel existed 3000 years ago, but COTF seem to be around longer (known to inhabit Westeros about 12,000 years ago and longer).

I was thinking about it and the story of Gendel's children could have roots in the war between the children and the first men. So they are portrayed as evil, flesh eaters because the war was consuming the population of first men.

[SirVardisoftheVale]

The CotF are Grendel's children. Wow! I like this theory! :)

They became Grendel's children 3000 years ago then. So aren't the Children of the Forest supposed to be a lot older than that? I love the theory, and even if the years don't match up, 3K years is a long time. Long enough time for their history to be embellsihed.