Is Cersei really crazy?

[Arya kiddin']

I agree. I can't stand her evil, diseased wine-pickled mind by AFFC, but.....I don't think she was THIS severe until the compliation of a few events. Yes, you can go back to Melaria, or however the hell you spell it, but I don't think she was quite THIS far gone at the beginning of GOT. Although, one thing that makes me wonder, regardless of her Bran protestations, is Jaime and the Arya question. Jaime reflecting that Cersei wanted him to most likely kill Arya, or take her damn hand. Now, was that ALL in Cersei's anger at everything and drunken Robert, or was she serious? I'll give the benefit of the doubt here and say, probably both. But, it also shows while yes, everyone IS out to get her, reasons like this stupidity are why. It can't have been a good idea to kill or disfigure Ned's child because of a squabble between children. It's a backward glimpse in how Cersei can cause her own problems.

I think her downward spiral, the leap from disturbed to 'crazy' for lack of a better word, starts with her isolation in KL with Jaime kidnapped, Tyrion at her side, and perhaps........whispers of the prophecy in her ear. But, she caused alot of that mess by sleeping and procreating with Jaime, killing Robert, her contributions to the start of the war, etc....but I think this is where it starts. Then, all bets are off when Joff is killed.

She was quite the disturbed individual anyway, but by AFFC, girlfriend is GONE, LOL, IMO anyway.

Many thanks, I really thought I was alone. :)

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Many thanks, I really thought I was alone. :)

No problem, seems we have similar opinions on a few things. :cheers: I always feel like I need a shower after an extended period of time in her mind, LOL

The thing is, I would have been interested in being able to get a glimpse of her POV much earlier, before she was this far gone, for compare and contrast purposes. I'm thinking while she was still disturbed, vain, paranoid, she wasn't totally BSC, she at least managed to function much better. Being in her mind from AFFC and onwards, I even wonder about the 'accuracy' of some of her thoughts, considering her state of mind now. Not the distant past, it's maybe the last few years at KL I'd be interested in knowing the truth of how she thought, felt, etc.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Has anyone ever remarked upon the similarities, that are shown in the behaviour of Cersei and of Aerion Targaryen (Aerion Brightflame).

-Aerion had thrown Aegon's pet cat in a well,

-Aerion attacks a puppeteer, because in the play a dragon dies

-Aerion wants Dunk to lose a hand, since he struck him

-Aerion dies of drinking wildfire

-Cersei threw Melara down a well

-Cersei gave some puppeteers to Qyburn, because in their play a lion dies

-Cersei wants Arya to lose a hand, because she hit Joffrey

-Cersei orders wildfire to defend the city and burns the Tower of The Hand with it

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Just because Cersei is paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get her. :)

[Arya kiddin']

No problem, seems we have similar opinions on a few things. :cheers: I always feel like I need a shower after an extended period of time in her mind, LOL

The thing is, I would have been interested in being able to get a glimpse of her POV much earlier, before she was this far gone, for compare and contrast purposes. I'm thinking while she was still disturbed, vain, paranoid, she wasn't totally BSC, she at least managed to function much better. Being in her mind from AFFC and onwards, I even wonder about the 'accuracy' of some of her thoughts, considering her state of mind now. Not the distant past, it's maybe the last few years at KL I'd be interested in knowing the truth of how she thought, felt, etc.

Agreed. Cersei is the character whose deeds and character imo are dealt with only a single viewpoint here on this forum. Yes her POv's on GOT would certainly have helped to give us more insight into her character. The reason being, that after Robert died, she started seeing herself as the de-facto ruler of Westeros (which arguably she was). And when she grabbed that much power, she wasn't sure what to do with it. So yes, she might not've been as crazy before Bob died as she has been potrayed Feast onwards.

[LollysLackwit]

No, she's no crazy. She's a cunt but she's not crazy.

Approaching from an academic point of view, she does not correspond to any actual mental illness. She may have a narcissitic personality, but she has proven she is capable of love (to her children at the very least) so she is not a sociopath. She is focused and hellbent on her one goal so she's not bipolar or borderline or she would change her mind a lot and/or hesitate. Her goals are set by herself and her set of values, as far as we know she's not hearing voices so she's not schizo either. Paranoia is usually a symptom, not a mental illness on it's own and as it's been hinted before: her paranoia is in fact justfied, so it really isn't paranoia.

The deal with Cercei is simply her set of values is all wrong. She was thaught at a young age that the only thing that matters is the family, above all else, at all costs. She has values and principles, but they only apply to the Lannisters. The rest of the world is shit. I don't think she's insane because I think a different upbringing would have spawned a completly different person.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

She was always a few cards short of a full deck.

I agree... twincest is not the result of rational thinking.

With that said, she's certainly devolved further and further into madness as the series has progressed. Losing Joffrey was a tipping point where she went from neurosis to straight up psychopath.

Here's the PCL-R for Psychopathology:

Psychopathy Checklist-Revised: Factors, Facets, and Items^[1] Factor 1 Factor 2 Other items

Facet 1: Interpersonal

• Glibness/superficial charm
  
• Grandiose sense of self-worth
  
• Pathological lying
  
• Cunning/manipulative
  
  

Facet 2: Affective

• Lack of remorse or guilt
  
• Emotionally shallow
  
• Callous/lack of empathy
  
• Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
  
  

Facet 3: Lifestyle

• Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
  
• Parasitic lifestyle
  
• Lack of realistic, long-term goals
  
• Impulsivity
  
• Irresponsibility
  
  

Facet 4: Antisocial

• Poor behavioral controls
  
• Early behavioral problems
  
• Juvenile delinquency
  
• Revocation of conditional release
  
• Criminal versatility
  
  

• Many short-term marital relationships
  
• Promiscuous sexual behavior
  
  

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

No, she's no crazy. She's a cunt but she's not crazy.

Approaching from an academic point of view, she does not correspond to any actual mental illness. She may have a narcissitic personality, but she has proven she is capable of love (to her children at the very least) so she is not a sociopath. She is focused and hellbent on her one goal so she's not bipolar or borderline or she would change her mind a lot and/or hesitate. Her goals are set by herself and her set of values, as far as we know she's not hearing voices so she's not schizo either. Paranoia is usually a symptom, not a mental illness on it's own and as it's been hinted before: her paranoia is in fact justfied, so it really isn't paranoia.

The deal with Cercei is simply her set of values is all wrong. She was thaught at a young age that the only thing that matters is the family, above all else, at all costs. She has values and principles, but they only apply to the Lannisters. The rest of the world is shit. I don't think she's insane because I think a different upbringing would have spawned a completly different person.

But what drove her to murder her friend as a teenager? That is more than cuntish behavior. That's from extreme, irrational paranoia. Or was it a logical decision to murder?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

No, she's no crazy. She's a cunt but she's not crazy.

Approaching from an academic point of view, she does not correspond to any actual mental illness. She may have a narcissitic personality, but she has proven she is capable of love (to her children at the very least) so she is not a sociopath. She is focused and hellbent on her one goal so she's not bipolar or borderline or she would change her mind a lot and/or hesitate. Her goals are set by herself and her set of values, as far as we know she's not hearing voices so she's not schizo either. Paranoia is usually a symptom, not a mental illness on it's own and as it's been hinted before: her paranoia is in fact justfied, so it really isn't paranoia.

The deal with Cercei is simply her set of values is all wrong. She was thaught at a young age that the only thing that matters is the family, above all else, at all costs. She has values and principles, but they only apply to the Lannisters. The rest of the world is shit. I don't think she's insane because I think a different upbringing would have spawned a completly different person.

She's a textbook example of a psychopath.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I agree... twincest is not the result of rational thinking.

With that said, she's certainly devolved further and further into madness as the series has progressed. Losing Joffrey was a tipping point where she went from neurosis to straight up psychopath.

Here's the PCL-R for Psychopathology:

Psychopathy Checklist-Revised: Factors, Facets, and Items^[1] Factor 1 Factor 2 Other items

Facet 1: Interpersonal

• Glibness/superficial charm
  
  
• Grandiose sense of self-worth
  
  
• Pathological lying
  
  
• Cunning/manipulative
  

Facet 2: Affective

• Lack of remorse or guilt
  
  
• Emotionally shallow
  
  
• Callous/lack of empathy
  
  
• Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
  

Facet 3: Lifestyle

• Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
  
  
• Parasitic lifestyle
  
  
• Lack of realistic, long-term goals
  
  
• Impulsivity
  
  
• Irresponsibility
  

Facet 4: Antisocial

• Poor behavioral controls
  
  
• Early behavioral problems
  
  
• Juvenile delinquency
  
  
• Revocation of conditional release
  
  
• Criminal versatility
  

• Many short-term marital relationships
  
  
• Promiscuous sexual behavior
  

WOW, this place needs a shocked, googled eyed emoticon, is there one?? This whole breakdown looks like it does equal one big picture of Cersei. Just look up the term, insert a photo.

[MotherMerciless]

WOW, this place needs a shocked, googled eyed emoticon, is there one?? This whole breakdown looks like it does equal one big picture of Cersei. Just look up the term, insert a photo.

:stunned: :shocked: :eek:

[LollysLackwit]

She's a textbook example of a psychopath.

Actually, you're right for the exeption of her own children (well those of Jamie that is to say). No psycopath could show so much love, patience and tolerence for anyone/anything. She would have murdered Joffrey herself had she been a true psycopath.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Actually, you're right for the exeption of her own children (well those of Jamie that is to say). No psycopath could show so much love, patience and tolerence for anyone/anything. She would have murdered Joffrey herself had she been a true psycopath.

She see's them as extensions of herself, not as living breathing people with their own minds and their right to free will. Killing Joffrey would be like committing suicide to her.

[LollysLackwit]

She see's them as extensions of herself, not as living breathing people with their own minds and their right to free will. Killing Joffrey would be like committing suicide to her.

Uh, interesting. Makes sense.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

:stunned: :shocked: :eek:

LOL, thank you. Everytime I use the emoticons and then try to continue typing, the page slows and jams. I must remember to save my emoticons for the end of a post. :cheers:

[The Silver Otter]

Just to dig a little deeper, and along the same lines as TowerOfJoy. Yes, the Queen Dowager is a sociopath.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), defines ASPD (in Axis II Cluster B) as:^[8] A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:

• failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
  
• deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
  
• impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
  
• irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
  
• reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
  
• consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
  
• lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;
  
  

B) The individual is at least age 18 years. C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years. D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Uh, interesting. Makes sense.

Which is interesting, because I have a theory that she will be the one that kills Tommen as a sort of symbolic suicide attempt, and selfishly to keep Marg Tyrell from taking away her power. :)

Ultimately, I also think she'll attempt to burn down King's Landing using the wildfyre caches beneath the city, but that ultimately Jaime will kill her to prevent it. Coming full circle on his reasoning for killing Aerys.

[Handle]

I've seen multiple posts in this thread (and other threads IIRC) that indicate Cersei murdered Melara after the incident with Maggy the Frog, but I've been unable to find any quotes in ASoIaF that provide solid evidence. I think premeditated murder at a young age in response to (an as yet unproven) prophecy would be a pretty major indicator of mental illness, so I just wanted to ask you all whether I missed some major evidence.

When she receives the prophecy from Maggy the Frog, she murders Melara Heatherspoon in the belief if no one knows of the prophecy, it won't come true. But what she actually has done is made the prophecy come true by killing Melara.

The closest quote I found was "If we never talk about it we'll soon forget, and then it will be just a bad dream we had, Melara had said. Bad dreams never come true." My interpretation of this was that it was only a pact to never speak of it again. Also, for no one to truly know, wouldn't Cersei need to kill Maggy as well?

Cersei has a vision of Melara looking at her with accusing eyes in Dance. Pretty sure that is proof.

I'm pretty sure this includes the relevant quote "The queen began to see familiar faces. . . . A young girl . . . stared at her with Melara Heatherspoon's accusing eyes."

In an earlier post on this thread, I proposed a couple of (I think) plausible alternate reasons for Melara's "accusing eyes." Even if those aren't convincing, I don't think the "accusing eyes" alone suggests murder.

Others on this thread are also of the opinion that Cersei murdered Melara, so I feel like I may have missed a major red flag somewhere:

I'm sure when she threw her best friend down a well it was to protect her (non-existant) children.

-Cersei threw Melara down a well

But what drove her to murder her friend as a teenager?

Is anyone aware of a "smoking gun" passage that strongly suggests Cersei murdered Melara? Thanks.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Actually, you're right for the exeption of her own children (well those of Jamie that is to say). No psycopath could show so much love, patience and tolerence for anyone/anything. She would have murdered Joffrey herself had she been a true psycopath.

Cersei is one of the worst mothers we've seen in aSoIaF. And I'm about 4 pages late but I think I'll go with the general consensus and say yes, she's fucking batshit crazy. The quickest path to craziness is being delusional, and I don't think you can deny she certainly is delusional.

[Opa Tywin]

I love this thread. Cercei's chapters in AFfC are among my favorites. I just love to read about her descend into madness. Someone above said that he/she feels like needing a shower after reading her chapters. I agree and I think that feeling is what makes her chapters so appealing for me. Her whole story arc is fascinating.

It has been stated that she loves her children only as an extension of herself. On that I couldn't agree more. Moreover, she loves Jaime as an extension of herself, too. IMO, banging him is some kind of masturbation to her.

Crackpot theory I heard on this forum: The younger (& more beautiful) queen in Maggy's prophecy is, in fact, Cerceis younger (& more beautiful) self: her own actions (things done beforehand by her younger self) and behavior cause her demise. So the prophecy is self-fulfilling, at least in that part... (Idk if I put that into words well enough.. I'm not a native speaker)

edited for spelling