Jon and Aegon babyswapping

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I was only half-serious when I posted a similar theory in the thread about the requirements to become the sword of the morning, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. So here's my admittedly crackpottish theory and I hope someone can find holes in it, because I don't really want it to be true.

Lord Eddard makes a promise to protect his sister's son. The baby however looks like a Targaryen (purple eyes and silver hair). He makes a stop at Starfall to return ser Arthur's bones. Ashara introduces him to his nephew who looks like a Stark. Howland Reed swaps the babies without telling Ned and Ashara so that no one will suspect that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a baby.

Ashara who is upset for having her son stolen from her, takes Rhaegar's boy to Essos. She becomes Septa Lemore, and names the boy Aegon.

So Jon is actually the son of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark while Aegon the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Thoughts?

[Rhymes with Weak]

You just wrote that Jon ain't a secret Targ... I'd run.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Ashara who is upset for having her son stolen from her, takes Rhaegar's boy to Essos. She becomes Septa Lemore, and names the boy Aegon.

"OMG, someone stole my son. I'll move to another continent and raise this other persons baby with a false identity and then get backing from a cheese monger so he can take the throne!"

[Mladen]

The fact that Ashara gave birth to stillborn baby girl, of course, should be disregarded...

Plus the fact that Ashara was supposed to carry Jon for 2 years should also be disregarded

And the fact that Ashara/Septa Lemore age doesn't fit...

Too many things we should disregard for this theory to work. So, no.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

The fact that Ashara gave birth to stillborn baby girl, of course, should be disregarded...

To be fair, there is no reason that Barristan would be present at the birth. So what he heard happened cannot be taken as fact in my opinion.

[Dead Wolf]

Wait...are you saying Jon is Brandon's son?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Brandon was dead by the time Jon was conceived.

[jenerationx]

God people are so desperate to make Jon not exactly what he is -- the first and only secret Targ. Just because you don't like what GRRM is going there or are bored with the theory doesn't make it any less probable from the myriad of clues given in the text.

[TyrionsFlagon]

Damn, how do you all keep the timelines so straight? I thought it was as respectable as a crackpot theory could get, until people shot you down like it was game.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Damn, how do you all keep the timelines so straight? I thought it was as respectable as a crackpot theory could get, until people shot you down like it was game.

Nothing too complicated. Jon was born at about the time of the Sack, up to a month after. The war lasted about a year, putting Jon's conception a couple of months into it, give or take. The start of the war is dated to when Arryn called his banners, which was after Brandon was already dead.

[Alhazred]

Plus the fact that Ashara was supposed to carry Jon for 2 years should also be disregarded

Nonetheless, it appears that Lyanna's death and Ashara's stillborn baby and suicide occurred at about the same time.

[Mladen]

Nonetheless, it appears that Lyanna's death and Ashara's stillborn baby and suicide occurred at about the same time.

Actually no. Lyanna Ashara got pregnant in Harrenhal according to Barristan, and Lyanna died 2 years after the Tourney

[TyrionsFlagon]

Nothing too complicated. Jon was born at about the time of the Sack, up to a month after. The war lasted about a year, putting Jon's conception a couple of months into it, give or take. The start of the war is dated to when Arryn called his banners, which was after Brandon was already dead.

I wish I knew this series as well as you did. I've always respected your posts and found them to be the most thought provoking. As to what you wrote just now...siiggghhhh, I'll start taking notes :)

[Alhazred]

Actually no. Lyanna got pregnant in Harrenhal according to Barristan, [...]

Actually no. Barristan never says that.

and Lyanna died 2 years after the Tourney

So did Ashara.

[Mladen]

Actually no. Barristan never says that.

I meant Ashara...

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Actually two things are part of the same thought. Barristan remembers that Ashara was smitten by a Stark, someone dishonored her at Harrenhal, and the tourney is the last time she was with someone of the Starks, before Ned brought her sword.

[Alhazred]

I meant Ashara...

So did I. Barristan still never says she got pregnant at Harrenhall. "Dishonored" need not mean "got pregnant".

And, obviously, if "Harrenhall" means the Tourney of Harrenhall, that cannot be when she got pregnant. She jumped to her death with the stillborn child 2 or 3 years later.

Barristan's words are much vaguer than you think. He does not say who dishonored her, or how. He merely wishes that she had turned to him, rather than to Stark, for help.

Who did Rhaegar "honor" at the tournament? Lyanna, by crowing her queen of love and beauty. Who did he dishonor? Everyone else, including the woman Barrisan would have rather crowned Queen of Love and Beauty.

Perhaps all Barristan is saying is that Ashara was in love with the man who did NOT crown her queen of love and beauty: Rhaegar. Hence, her suicide was motivated by both her child's death and (perhaps) Rhaegar's death.

Later, perhaps, she turns to Stark, for something. Stark did not save her. Perhaps Barristan could have.

[Mladen]

And, obviously, if "Harrenhall" means the Tourney of Harrenhall, that cannot be when she got pregnant. She jumped to her death with the stillborn child 2 or 3 years later.

Where does it say she jumped with child? Barristan said: But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after. This is ambiguous term, meaning that soon after could mean later, after Arthur died too, or really quickly after her child was born dead...

Who did Rhaegar "honor" at the tournament? Lyanna, by crowing her queen of love and beauty. Who did he dishonor? Everyone else, including the woman Barrisan would have rather crowned Queen of Love and Beauty.

No, Rhaegar dishonored his wife not everyone. That is stretching the logic beyond admissible. Nice try, though :)

[Alhazred]

Where does it say she jumped with child?

I don't recall. I may be mistaken.

But it does not matter. Because the bottom line is that the child was born, or stillborn, at about the same time she supposedly jumped. And this was after the events of the Tower of Joy.

Rumors that Jon was Ashara's child (see AGOT Ch6; ASOS Ch 45); as well as rumors that grief for her child was the main cause of her suicide, both lead to the conclusion that the child was born at around the same time as the events of the Tower of Joy.

So if "dishonor" means "have sex with"; the sex did not lead to this particular pregnancy.

No, Rhaegar dishonored his wife not everyone. That is stretching the logic beyond admissible.

"Dishonor" means to "deprive of honor". By honoring Lyanna instead, Rhaegar deprived Ashara of an honor that Barristan clearly thought Ashara deserved, and that Barristan would have given her.

Logic has nothing to do with it. It is merely semantics.

Your position seems to be "I have never heard the word used that way, therefore it cannot be what is intended". That is weak, bad logic, since all people (including you) have limited experience of language.

Now, this guess may be wrong, and probably is wrong. I could name a dozen other possible meaning of "dishonor" in this context. But the bottom line is, it certainly need not mean "got her pregnant."

In any event, we need to be cautious. Obviously, GRRM is trying to distract us with the idea that Ned got Ashara pregnant. The fact that, on close examination, the numbers don't match should alert us to the possibility that we are being led down the garden path.

[Mladen]

But it does not matter. Because the bottom line is that the child was born, or stillborn, at about the same time she supposedly jumped. And this was after the events of the Tower of Joy.

Again, we don't know how much time passed between child's birth and Ashara;s suicide. It could be year or two, or it could be days. But, given what Barristan is literally saying about Ashara's love for Stark, and dishonor, logically, it is natural to assume something happened at Harrenhal, meaning the tourney...

Rumors that Jon was Ashara's child (see AGOT Ch6; ASOS Ch 45); as well as rumors that grief for her child was the main cause of her suicide, both lead to the conclusion that the child was born at around the same time as the events of the Tower of Joy.

I am well aware of those rumors, thank you. I know a thing or two about ASOIAF. But you also forget that these rumors are connected with the child Ned brought to Winterfell, not about some certain facts...

So if "dishonor" means "have sex with"; the sex did not lead to this particular pregnancy.

Given that you can't claim that for certainty, I have to disregard it...

"Dishonor" means to "deprive of honor".

Really?

Logic has nothing to do with it. It is merely semantics.

Semantics with fallible logic...

Now, this guess may be wrong, and probably is wrong. I could name a dozen other possible meaning of "dishonor" in this context. But the bottom line is, it certainly need not mean "got her pregnant."

Actually, the pregnancy is one of the best reasonable explanations for the word. If it is just sex, no one would know it for certain. If it was about Rhaegar's naming Lyanna, then in all tourneys the winner would be dishonoring all other ladies but QOLAB, which is not the case. Pregnancy fits perfectly, as visible proof of her dishonor. Harrenhal, Stark, pregnancy - all are part of same thought...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think that even in Planetos a pregnancy can last for 2 years.