Dark Sister - Whereabouts and Future

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

Just throwing this out there, but there are a lot of ways that Bloodraven could maintained ownership [though probably not possession] of the sword during and after his imprisonment. "Oh he went to jail, he must have lost the sword right then" is a poor assumption. Maybe BR didn't have the sword with him when he was arrested, and someone kept it hidden for him [or he hid it himself] and it was returned/retrieved later. Maybe he did, and he got it back when he was released by Aegon V and sent to the Wall when Aemon went. Aegon seems to have been a fair-minded ruler; it's my gut feeling that he would have allowed BR to keep it--especially if you include the possibility that Aegon [who had ready access to Aemon's sage counsel] respected the importance of these swords within the Targaryen family/dynasty and didn't want to disrupt the ownership of the sword by another member of the royal blood. This thread wouldn't exist if there was hard proof as to where Dark Sister actually is; my guess is as bad as anyone else's, but especially when his supernatural prowess and connection to the weirwoods' sight/foresight is considered, the likelihood seems strong that BR kept possession of it.

[Northbound]

would quite like to see Sansa with her own Kick Ass VS sword too...perhaps with which to slay a certain man who's house sigil is a the Titan...a Giant.

While, I would love to see something along these lines; I very much doubt it. I don't really picture Sansa, carrying any form of weapon, it's not who she is. She will never be a warrior or fighter. While she may end up killing LF, in a violent way; I see it happening in the heat of moment. Or it will be a long thought out process and Sansa will have her own "little birds", that will do the killing. Sansa's future weapon, will be her mind, wit and her kindness. A kindness that people flock to.........and these people will do anything for her.

As for Dark Sister. I'm very much in doubt that we will see it in the series. While we have heard plenty about it in the D&E series; it's not talked about in aSoIaF. So I just don't know. Now, should it get mentioned in the first third of Winds; then it's a safe bet the sword will make an appearance. As for who I want to have it, there are only three likely people and they are Jon, Arya and Dany. Dany is after all a true Targ heir(despite my dislike of her at this point.) Jon has Targ blood, be it trueborn or bastard. Arya because I F**king love her and I want her rip s**t up!

[Muggle]

why would jon wield dark sister. Doesn't he have long claw?

[Northbound]

why would jon wield dark sister. Doesn't he have long claw?

While that is very true, you have to take a look at who Jon is. Most of us agree, that Jon and Dany will meet. By that logic, J. Mormont will be with her. Do you really believe that Jon would not give the Mormont family sword, back to the last(or his he the oldest now, not sure on kids on the island) male heir of Bear Island? I sure don't

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

It doesn't seem that Rhaenys was as much of a warrior as Aegon and Visneya so she may not have wielded a sword directly. Dany is a Dragonrider but she wouldn't survive hand to hand combat.

I agree that Darksister is probably in the North with Bloodraven. I doubt it became Rhaegar's sword. It's a fairly famous one so it probably would have been mentioned when people speak about him. Westeros definitely has a sword fetish.

It could have remained at the wall, secreted away somewhere or in the cave. I think the cave is most likely. VS are effective against the whitewalkers. It seems that Bloodraven would have needed it to arrive at the cave safely. If the WW were rising at that time.

[Muggle]

While that is very true, you have to take a look at who Jon is. Most of us agree, that Jon and Dany will meet. By that logic, J. Mormont will be with her. Do you really believe that Jon would not give the Mormont family sword, back to the last male heir of Bear Island? I sure don't

No.... I dont Jorah shamed his self and his family. Selling slaves then instead of accepting his fate like a honor bound North Man he fled like a little girl.

I can only see Jon having enough respect to give Jorah the sword if Jorah took the black, Which i doubt Jorah will do.

I can see Jon giving the sword to Maege easily. Esp if she hand delivers Robbs will to Jon

[Jory Cassel]

(...)

I can see Jon giving the sword to Maege easily. (...)

Or to Alysane, who happens to be on her way to Castle Black right now.

[RumHam]

Just throwing this out there, but there are a lot of ways that Bloodraven could maintained ownership [though probably not possession] of the sword during and after his imprisonment. "Oh he went to jail, he must have lost the sword right then" is a poor assumption. Maybe BR didn't have the sword with him when he was arrested, and someone kept it hidden for him [or he hid it himself] and it was returned/retrieved later. Maybe he did, and he got it back when he was released by Aegon V and sent to the Wall when Aemon went. Aegon seems to have been a fair-minded ruler; it's my gut feeling that he would have allowed BR to keep it--especially if you include the possibility that Aegon [who had ready access to Aemon's sage counsel] respected the importance of these swords within the Targaryen family/dynasty and didn't want to disrupt the ownership of the sword by another member of the royal blood. This thread wouldn't exist if there was hard proof as to where Dark Sister actually is; my guess is as bad as anyone else's, but especially when his supernatural prowess and connection to the weirwoods' sight/foresight is considered, the likelihood seems strong that BR kept possession of it.

Like I said, if he hid it I sorta doubt he'd have time to pick it up on his trip to the Wall. It's possible Aegon gave it back to him, but I don't think it's likely. That was probably the only Valyrian Steel sword the Targaryens had at that point. If Aegon was being "fair-minded" and kind to Bloodraven wouldn't he have just...not sent him to The Wall? The importance of the Swords to the Targaryen Dynasty is a reason not to send it with a bastard to The Wall.

[Muggle]

The next sword of worth Jon is going to wield is Dawn, Dawn is LightBringer and Jon is TPTWP

[RumHam]

The thing about Jorah is that he left the sword behind, willingly. I don't think Jon would feel compelled to return it to him.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Jon will find it when he is in the cave with Mel, and uses it to slay her in a reference to Beowulf facing Grendel's mother. It seems fitting that a follower of the Lord of Light is slain by Dark Sister.

i like this theory but why would Mel be in the COTF cave?

[ckal]

In this theory, Dark Sisister stayed within the Targ family to eventually be used by Rhaegar. He gifted it with Lyanna as a recognition of her bravery/skill/plot-required awesomness, and it is buried with her in the Witerfell crypts (which just so happen to haunt Jon's dreams).

While Eddard is normally the sort to give families back their swords (Dawn), there weren't any Targs left in Westeros by the time he got to Lyanna. It could have been the only thing he felt was right to do with it.

OK thanks. Does the bold part have something to do with the Harrenhall tourney?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Not at the Wall. Neither would someone be allowed to take Valyrian steel into the Black Cells nor would the Targaryen yield their only remaining ancestral sword. Doesn't happen.

I've got the impression it stayed in the Royal Family till some dashing young prince met a certain "knight" with a weirwood on "his" shield, who had the stature to wield it. Wasn't there a discussion about a certain tomb... :cool4:

Seems to me that everyone who's gone missing is in the Neck, and everything that cannot be found is sitting in Lyanna's tomb. :lol: ASoIaF's Bermuda triangles.

Now we can almost definitely say that Ned had to stay around Starfall for a while: he had to wait for the moving van. :lol:

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

Like I said, if he hid it I sorta doubt he'd have time to pick it up on his trip to the Wall. It's possible Aegon gave it back to him, but I don't think it's likely. That was probably the only Valyrian Steel sword the Targaryens had at that point. If Aegon was being "fair-minded" and kind to Bloodraven wouldn't he have just...not sent him to The Wall? The importance of the Swords to the Targaryen Dynasty is a reason not to send it with a bastard to The Wall.

Solid counterpoints, but whether he may have had time to retrieve the sword depends a lot on where it was hidden. Rivers was Hand of the King under the prior monarch [and Master of Whispers for the king before that], so he had literally lived for years near the place of his imprisonment and later release. My point here is that he had time to get to know the castle, and may have found places to stash such a treasure. Not to mention that the Red Keep has a lot of secrets, which it would be the business of the Master of Whispers and Hand of the King to know [one of these secrets is a passageway that links the black cells to the Tower of the Hand]. I doubt that BR was arrested the very instant Maegor took the throne. Finding the time to hide the sword would have been easy. I'm also willing to make the assumption that Aegon didn't just have BR hauled up from a cell and thrown right onto a ship for Eastwatch--finding the time to retrieve it may have been trickier, but if Dark Sister was hidden in the Red Keep during Bloodraven's imprisonment, I think he would have had the time to get it after his release.

I will admit that, if the sword was hidden in the Riverlands or another location, BR would almost surely have required some help to hide the sword and/or get it back, and my theory would get a little thinner. But based on Rivers' resume, I think a stash in the Red Keep during his years of imprisonment is the strongest possibility.

As for Aegon's leniency, let's not forget that two of Bloodraven's fellow Great Bastards had joined forces to try to seize the throne and marshaled a lot of rebellious support in doing so. Not only did BR oppose this, but he played an important role in defeating them [arguably slaying a few kin in doing so]. His Handship, while not without controversy, held the kingdoms together, and it seems like a lot of Maekar's dislike for the guy was based in jealousy and personal bad feelings between them. My point here is that the Wall was probably a fair judgment from the new King Aegon's perspective--the Night's Watch had more honor to it in those days, and Bloodraven was a hero of the Blackfyre rebellions, a known kinslayer, a hated-but-capable Hand of the King, and a person so hated by the previous king that he had him imprisoned for a decade or more. That's a pretty mixed record. Recall also Aemon's own reasons for joining the Night's Watch--too many dragons is as dangerous as too few. Sending BR to the Wall was a smart move, and more lenient than execution or continued imprisonment.

As I mentioned above, it's very possible that Bloodraven hid the sword, and took it with him to the Wall without the king even realizing it. But I want to defend my theory that Aegon may have allowed him to take it. To paraphrase Maester Aemon, this isn't some random bastard we're talking about, but "no less a man than Brynden Rivers," who was a pretty accomplished person in his day. Some Targaryens are more fair than others, but forcibly taking the ancestral sword from an older relative to whom the dynasty arguably owes its survival, after that person had wielded it their entire life AND before they depart north for a lifetime of military service seems...like a bad idea for a lot of reasons. It's unjust, and doesn't exactly lend any honor to the next person to wield the sword.

But if you don't buy the theory that Aegon allowed BR to take the sword with him to the Wall, if you read this and you're like "there's no way Aegon would let that go down, especially if Dark Sister was the last Valyrian steel sword in the family," then your mind is already producing reasons why BR would have hidden the sword before his imprisonment and taken it to the Wall in secret. Either way, I'm virtually sure that sword went north to the Wall with him.

[Ghost's Shadow]

The next sword of worth Jon is going to wield is Dawn, Dawn is LightBringer and Jon is TPTWP

I was just reading the thread linked in this one () and saw a post by Veltigar, was it, about the whys of Jon being given Longclaw.

Is it right that one learns how to fight (or the first sword you normally wield is) with a longsword? So if Jon had never been given a bastard (1.5 hands) sword, he'd never have learned it? I don't think they have those at the Wall, or not many.

If it is indeed so that Dawn will be Lightbringer, or any other two-handed greatsword is Lightbringer, does it then not make sense that he was given the inbetweener to learn to fight with?

If I recall correctly, both Robb and Jon took a good look at Ice, but that doesn't mean they can actually start fighting with one without practice?

I don't think Jon would just give the sword over to Jorah, should he see him. That, if ever returned, should go directly to Maege Mormont (who still leads Bear Island). Jorah might even be given Blackfyre if he returns to Dany's service and can defeat Aegon, who knows.

I don't know if Jon would downgrade to a longsword again. It's not that the bastard sword has done much for him so far, so I hope to read about him fighting with it some more.

[Berelyn]

Yup. Which was probably lost when she and Meraxes died in Dorne, or during the Dance of Dragons.

Rhaenys was the softer sister who wasn't much fond of fighting and did all the conquering by flying around on her dragon. It would make sense for her to lack a sword.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Is it right that one learns how to fight (or the first sword you normally wield is) with a longsword? So if Jon had never been given a bastard (1.5 hands) sword, he'd never have learned it? I don't think they have those at the Wall, or not many.

If it is indeed so that Dawn will be Lightbringer, or any other two-handed greatsword is Lightbringer, does it then not make sense that he was given the inbetweener to learn to fight with?

If I recall correctly, both Robb and Jon took a good look at Ice, but that doesn't mean they can actually start fighting with one without practice?

That's part reality and part BS garbled together with a lot of modern misinterpretation. The differentiation between longsword, bastard sword and greatsword is a modern invention. Back then, they all were a "langes schwert". As well include the roman spatha. All "langes schwert", translated "long sword". And they were used all in the same way.

Which is also the reason why training is done with a sword. It lays the foundation for fighting with warhammer, mace, poleaxe, spear, halberd, quarterstaff and whatever you want. These specialized weapons use a subset of the movements employed in swordfighting, with some of them benefitting more from the warhammer or whatever than from a sword.

But the sword encompasses all these movements and tactics, therefore it is superior for extensive, high quality training. You could get adequate results training with a mace in way shorter time, but never the exceptional results and flexibility as with a sword.

So, of course Jon can fight with longsword, bastard sword or greatsword. And mace, warhammer, spear, poleaxe. So could Robb.

[Natasi]

I very much doubt that Jon would relinquish Longclaw to the Mormonts. The Old Bear gave him the sword because his own son was unworthy of it. In Jeor's mind, the sword was passed to someone who deserved it. Also, the pummel was altered from a bear to a direwolf to fit Jon. I find it highly unlikely that all this sentimentality would be tossed aside because of some noble notion to give the sword back to its original family.

[Jory Cassel]

I very much doubt that Jon would relinquish Longclaw to the Mormonts. The Old Bear gave him the sword because his own son was unworthy of it. In Jeor's mind, the sword was passed to someone who deserved it. Also, the pummel was altered from a bear to a direwolf to fit Jon. I find it highly unlikely that all this sentimentality would be tossed aside because of some noble notion to give the sword back to its original family.

it isn't some noble notion.. Jon knows that he is not entitled to the sword, as it's the ancestral blade of the Mormonts, it's spelled out that he thinks so in aGoT.

[Valyrian Spoon]

I'm inclined to believing that it could still be in King's Landing somewhere.

I'd like to think that during the sack of kings landing Tywin missed a golden opportunity to take possession of a Valyrian Steel sword.