Old Nan's True Name?

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

:rolleyes: Just because he's called Walder it doesn't mean that he's a Frey.

Still, it is not a very good name to choose unless you have some history with the Freys. Considering the thousands of minor characters and the effort Martin puts in names, why would Hodors real name be Walder yet have no meaning? The books show there is a lot of hidden messages.

[falcotron]

Still, it is not a very good name to choose unless you have some history with the Freys. Considering the thousands of minor characters and the effort Martin puts in names, why would Hodors real name be Walder yet have no meaning? The books show there is a lot of hidden messages.

People read way too much into first names in these books.

There are a number of names that seem to be common all over Westeros (even in the North and Dorne), throughout all the history we're given, among both nobles and commoners. All of them are common Anglo-Saxon names from real life, or faux-Olde-Timey variations on them—Robert, Jon, Wyl, Alys/Elys, etc. If you see two people with one of these names, it doesn't mean any more than meeting two people named Robert, John, Will, or Alice in real life.

Every once in a while, some common name becomes so tied to a particular person or house in people's minds that no one is going to use it unless they're deliberately trying to evoke a connection. (Joffrey seems to have been a reasonably common name in the past, but I doubt it will be in the future…) And at this point, Walder Frey has so many descendants, and so many of them are named after him, that it might be better than even odds that any random person named Walder is a Frey. But those are exceptions to the rule.

[Net-Viper X]

I always thought Nan was just short for Nanny which is basically what she was. Nan is definately not short for Nymeria, Arya was a bit stupid on that point and I was surprised a clever guy like Roose didn't catch her bullshit the moment she spoke it. Nymeria shortened would be Nym, not Nan. How the hell did she get Nan from Nymeria? That reminds me someone named Walder calling himself Hodor, where the hell did that come from?

[falcotron]

That reminds me someone named Walder calling himself Hodor, where the hell did that come from?

It's actually just that his accent is too thick. He's saying, "No, my name is Walder, can't anyone understand me?" But to Northerners it just sounds like "Hodor hodor hodor honor." The same way Greeks thought that silly foreigners trying to speak Greek just sounded like "Bar bar bar bar bar."

[Ludd]

Bits of Brains

Old Nan and Hodor are NOT just small folks and their names are CRITICAL to the story outcome.

Now Hodr was the blind god (and god of Winter) who killed his brother (God of Summer) by accident. His brother was Balder which is linguistically the SAME name as Walder (the great B-V shift). Balder's wife was Nanna.

I am not sure HOW but Hodor is critical to the story as foretold by his name. (Oh and Tyrion, Tywin and Jaime are aspects of the god Tyr, the Baratheons aspects of the Thunder God Thor, and BloodRaven is practically a direct representation of the great god Odin/Woden.

The seven Kingdoms each represent one of the Gods in the Nordic/Germanic pantheon as codified by the Romans.

1. Sun= Dorne/Martell Sunday is named for this god

2. Moon= Arryn/Vale

3. Tyr (Tue)= Crag/Lannister (the god of war and justice) - Weapon is a sword

4. Odin/Wodin = Bloodraven and probably the Riverlands/ Mudd dynasty (powerful father god of war, magic and WINTER)

5. Thor = Stormlands/Baratheon God of storms and lightning wielding a battle ax

6. Frigg/Freya or Freyr = ???? Hard to see the Freys as Gods so despite the Name I think it is the reach but it Could (I may be sick) involve the highly fertile Freys God of agriculture and fertility. Associated with Falcons

7. Very difficult one to choose the Kingdom associated with "evil" god Saturn (Satan) There are only two candidates left - Winterfell or Iron Islands. Personally I think it is the trickster god Loki who seems very Theon like, but no doubt the heresy threads will select the evil Starks

[Eira Seren]

Nymeria? Maybe. Dornish? Unlikely, far too much distance for that. Martell? No way in hell. Servants are servants and nobility is nobility, especially if it's actual royalty.

No. Tanselle is called Tanselle Too-Tall. The girl in that vision was not noted for being exceptionally tall. Old Nan definitely isn't. And the transfer from Tanselle to Nan is far too big.

Furthermore, Dunk wasn't exactly a monk. He had sex all over the Seven Kingdoms.

I'll have to take your word on Dunk.

I guess Old Nan could have shrunk, she is old.

Considering "Old" Walder Frey is unlikely to be the first Walder in Westeros, then no I don't see Hodor's first name being Walder as being very strong evidence he has Frey in him. It's still possible, naturally.

You are right, I'm sure he isn't the first Walder. But I think I thought it was a connection between Hodor and the Freys because of the age thing -- Old Nan and Walder Frey are two of the few characters that come to mind who are really old. Excluding the COTF and Bloodraven and a few others. So when I heard Hodor's name is Walder, it made me wonder if there was a further connection.

[Roadside Rose]

I always thought Nan was just short for Nanny which is basically what she was. Nan is definately not short for Nymeria, Arya was a bit stupid on that point and I was surprised a clever guy like Roose didn't catch her bullshit the moment she spoke it. Nymeria shortened would be Nym, not Nan. How the hell did she get Nan from Nymeria? That reminds me someone named Walder calling himself Hodor, where the hell did that come from?

Arya says that her mother named her Nymeria, and called her Nan, short for Nymeria

“Nymeria,” she said. “Only she called me Nan for short.”

I don't think Arya is being stupid.

Ned is short for Eddard. Edric Dayne is called Ned too.

[Mithras]

I and some other people really try to write something about the stupidity of these bizarre reasoning but so far i am helpless. Let me try to make a summary.

1. Arya said Nan is short for Nymeria, so the true name of Old Nan should be Nymeria. Since Nymeria is a Dornish name Old Nan should be from Dorne.

2. A tall woman in Bran's vision kisses Duncan. Therefore, Old Nan is Tanselle who is the Dornish lover of Duncan and transformation from Tanselle to Nan is very likely.

There are tonnes of things to say and i dont want to waste my time for the mess above. You are first saying Old Nan's true name is Nymeria, then you are suggesting she is actually Tanselle. One last thing, why dont you assume Old Nan is not from Dorne but Rhoyne itself, where the name originally came?

[Jaime4Brienne]

Anyone's ideas are as valid as anyone else's considering none of us know what is going to happen---so to slap down someone else's theory...I have to wonder why you'd want to do that.

[Roadside Rose]

I and some other people really try to write something about the stupidity of these bizarre reasoning but so far i am helpless. Let me try to make a summary.

1. Arya said Nan is short for Nymeria, so the true name of Old Nan should be Nymeria. Since Nymeria is a Dornish name Old Nan should be from Dorne.

2. A tall woman in Bran's vision kisses Duncan. Therefore, Old Nan is Tanselle who is the Dornish lover of Duncan and transformation from Tanselle to Nan is very likely.

There are tonnes of things to say and i dont want to waste my time for the mess above. You are first saying Old Nan's true name is Nymeria, then you are suggesting she is actually Tanselle. One last thing, why dont you assume Old Nan is not from Dorne but Rhoyne itself, where the name originally came?

I said there is a possibility of Old Nan being from Dorne, if her real name was Nymeria. I don't see what is so stupid here.

Secondly, I asked D&E readers if they think she could be the Dornish puppeteer Tanselle - I NEVER said she is Tanselle. Besides, Tanselle's descriptions do not match with the woman in Bran's vision.

The woman in Bran's vision that kisses 'a knight as tall as Hodor' is widely speculated to be Old Nan kissing Duncan the Tall.

From http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_the_people_Bran_sees_through_the_weirwood

6.2.12. WHO ARE THE PEOPLE BRAN SEES THROUGH THE WEIRWOOD?

Bran’s visions appear to be going backwards in chronology, from more recent images to older ones, as the tree grows smaller and younger with each successive vision that Bran sees. In order:

A slim young woman kissing a knight as tall as Hodor: This is certainly Ser Duncan the Tall, and we’ll almost certainly see this scene in Martin’s novella for the Dangerous Women anthology, which he has said deals with the “She-wolves of Winterfell”, a number of Stark women who held power and influence in his time.

From..http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Nan

Old Nan

In the books

In A Song of Ice and Fire novels, Old Nan is the oldest person living at Winterfell. She came to Winterfell to act as wetnurse for a Brandon Stark, which one is unsure, only that his mother had died birthing him. This Brandon Stark is believed to be either the brother of Lord Rickard Stark or a brother of his father. She's retired but tells stories and legends to the Stark children. She lost two sons in Robert's Rebellion and her grandson during the Greyjoy Rebellion, while her daughters moved away and died. Her only surviving family is her great-grandson, the gentle, slow-witted Hodor.

"Nan" might be short for "Nymeria". When Arya Stark is on the run after escaping from King's Landing, one of the aliases she uses is "Nymeria", but she says to call her "Nan" for short.

From..http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Hodor

Hodor

There is widespread speculation that Hodor is a descendant of the famous knight Duncan the Tall, who eventually rose to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard under his friend King Aegon V Targaryen. Ser Duncan ("Dunk") and Aegon "Egg" Targaryen are the two main characters in the "Tales of Dunk and Egg" prequel novellas, which start about 90 years before Game of Thrones begins. George R.R. Martin has stated that, with time-jumps in between each story, he intends for the prequel novellas to cover the entire lives of Dunk and Egg, up until about 50 years ago. Like Ser Duncan, Hodor is also extremely tall. The upcoming fourth prequel novella, The She-Wolves of Winterfell, reveals that Ser Duncan traveled to Winterfell. At one point Bran Stark has a greensight vision of the past, and sees a very large man "as tall as Hodor" in the Winterfell godswood, being kissed by a slender young woman - who might have been Old Nan. There is also speculation, based on some hints given by George R.R. Martin, that Brienne of Tarth is also a descendant of Ser Duncan.

From http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hodor/Theories

Hodor Theories

Hodor a slow witted stableboy over seven feet tall serving at Winterfell is the great grandson of Old Nan. There is a great deal of speculation as to who is his male ancestors were.

Some of the proposed ancestor are;

• Giants were claimed by Osha because of his great size.

Ser Duncan the Tall because of his height and because George R. R. Martin stated that his descendant would be in the book. There is also the vision of Bran's in the cave of the three-eyed crow of a knight as tall Hodor kissing a young woman at Winterfell. The woman is thought to be Nan and the knight to be Ser Duncan the Tall, when he and Egg visited Winterfell in The She-Wolves of Winterfell.

A member of House Frey because his real name is Walder and being slow witted runs in House Frey, i.e.Jingelebell.

[Mithras]

I dont want to repeat the same things over and over again. If we are talking about possibilities and assumptions, everything is possible. You are picking a fact from the book and i find your explanation of it irrelevant. I can make 3 other explanations for each of your comment, all of which are completely different than yours and reasonable as much as yours.

Here is the fact. We know that Old Nan was brought to wetnurse a Brandon Stark (most probably uncle of Lord Rickard Stark). Wetnurses do not cross the continent looking for a job with breasts full of milk. So Old Nan can only be somewhere close to Winterfell at the right time.

Please read and think carefully about this and tell me where do we see actual wetnurses summoned in the books, and where did they come from?

[Roadside Rose]

Now Hodr was the blind god (and god of Winter) who killed his brother (God of Summer) by accident. His brother was Balder which is linguistically the SAME name as Walder (the great B-V shift). Balder's wife was Nanna.

Great observation!

[Aethermancer]

Duncan the Tall was said to have saved the life of a Dornish puppeteer Tanselle in D&E, right?

And some believe that the vision Bran saw was of Old Nan and Duncan the tall.

Could Old Nan be Tanselle? (I haven't read D&E - so pardon me if I'm wrong here)

A puppeteer would need to know lots of stories.

[Aethermancer]

I always thought Nan was just short for Nanny which is basically what she was. Nan is definately not short for Nymeria, Arya was a bit stupid on that point and I was surprised a clever guy like Roose didn't catch her bullshit the moment she spoke it. Nymeria shortened would be Nym, not Nan. How the hell did she get Nan from Nymeria? That reminds me someone named Walder calling himself Hodor, where the hell did that come from?

How do you go from Richard to Dick?

Hypocorism

• Carmela → Carmelita → Lita

• Cynthia → Cindy

Henry → Hal, Hank, Harry

Mary → Mae, Minnie, Molly → Polly

Virginia → Ginger, Ginny

[Rooghar Targaryen]

Some Nan stuff

Nan came to Winterfell to be a wetnurse for a Stark child that's mother died during childbirth. Edwyle's brother/uncle/relative Bran was born with his mother dying from childbirth. So we assume Nan came to Winterfell to become a wetnurse for this Bran. Bran is said to have died when he was 3 from a summer chill. The Great Spring Sickness was in 209 AC, so summer was sometime after that (Summer is after Spring). Dunk and Egg were on their way up to Winterfell in 213 AC to answer a call to arms by Lord Beron Stark, they probably got up there around 214 AC. So it is safe to assume Nan came to Winterfell during the 210-215ish time period. She would have been around 13-17 years old (if she was 100 at the beginning of GOT).

Also, Nan must have recently had a child for her to be acting as a wetnurse for Bran (Edwyle's younger Brother?), so that is up for speculation lol. She is skinny in the vision Bran has of her kissing Dunk.

Quick Nan Timeline:

-Nan born 195ish
-Nan gets pregnant from some dude pretty young (Could be a fling with a Night's Watch guy, makes her think "All Crows are Liars")
-Nan has a baby, starts producing milk able to be a wetnurse
-Nan goes to Winterfell to be a wetnurse because Bran Stark's mother died during childbirth (210ish)
-Nan becomes Bran's wetnurse
-Dunk comes to Winterfell, to answer Lord Beron Stark's call for arms during the Greyjoy invasion in 213-214ish

-Dunk kisses Nan in front of the Weirwood tree (vision)
-Dunk does the dirty with Nan->>>>>>>>HODOR

I think it is unlikely that Nan came from anywhere other than the North or beyond the wall. If the Stark mother died during childbirth, it seems likely they would just find some local lady that is able to produce milk to feed the new baby. Nan knows a bunch of tales about the North and beyond the wall. If she was 13-17 years old when she kissed Dunk, that seems pretty young to have already traveled across the continent and already had a baby and to now be employed as a wetnurse. Also, I think "Nan" has just as much likelihood to be short for "Nanny" as "Nymeria."

[Ice and fire freak]

Wow I'm loving this thread,ever since I started the books I always liked the bits with Old Nan with her scary stories,she's seems really nice to the kids too,I was gutted after the sacking of Winterfell thinking she were dead but since COK it's come out that survivors were taken to the Dreadfort was it?lets hope she's still about.

[Little Balerion]

Some Nan stuff

Nan came to Winterfell to be a wetnurse for a Stark child that's mother died during childbirth. Edwyle's brother/uncle/relative Bran was born with his mother dying from childbirth. So we assume Nan came to Winterfell to become a wetnurse for this Bran. Bran is said to have died when he was 3 from a summer chill. The Great Spring Sickness was in 209 AC, so summer was sometime after that (Summer is after Spring). Dunk and Egg were on their way up to Winterfell in 213 AC to answer a call to arms by Lord Beron Stark, they probably got up there around 214 AC. So it is safe to assume Nan came to Winterfell during the 210-215ish time period. She would have been around 13-17 years old (if she was 100 at the beginning of GOT).

We don't know if she came as a wetnurse for Rickard's brother Brandon or Edwyle's brother Brandon. That's still uncertain.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

We don't know if she came as a wetnurse for Rickard's brother Brandon or Edwyle's brother Brandon. That's still uncertain.

You are right, but there are some pieces of information that can help us try to put together a Nan series of events.

This is from Bran:

Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran’s grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard’s father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children.

-Nan came to Winterfell to be a Wet Nurse for a Stark child named Brandon, Brandon's Mother died giving birth to him

-------Brandon is the youngest brother of someone, because the mother died giving birth. The mother needs to be alive to birth more sons lol.

-Nan is seen in Winterfell kissing Dunk in 214 AC

------This means Brandon was born before 214 AC because Nan came to Winterfell for him, she wouldn't be there unless Brandon was already born

-The Spring Sickness happened in 209 AC, Brandon died of a "Summer Chill" when he was 3 years old.

-------Assuming the Spring Sickness ended in 209, Brandon must have been born after 207 AC to have died of a "summer chill" later than 209 AC

-Brandon is for sure born sometime between 207-214 AC and he died sometime between 210-217 AC

If he was Rickard's younger brother, Rickard would have been at least 75 years old when he died (Died in 282 AC, born before 207 AC). That seems highly unlikely for multiple reasons. That is really old in general. He would have had his children super late, like in his 50s. He offered to do a trial by combat in KL in 282 AC. (Also, when Catelyn is going over Robb's will she doesn't mention any cousins or kids from a Rickard brother or sister, she only mentions that Eddard's Grandfather (Edwyle) had a sister that married a Royce. I think Rickard was an only child.)

It only makes sense for Brandon to be Edwyle's younger brother.

[Full of Turnips]

Nanerys Targaryen. One more secret Targ can't hurt!

I tend to agree that "Nan" may just be a shortened form of "Nanny".

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

1. Edric Dayne claims so, it may even be true, but why they are named Edric instead of Eddard?

2. The only reasonable descendant of Dunk that GRRM talked about is Brienne. Unless the Shewolves of Winterfell is released, we cannot be sure of Hodor's Dunk blood. Dunk was large and strong but he is never desribed as superhumanly strong. Hodor carrying the anvil of Mikken is a superhuman description if you ask me. And Jon compares Hodor with Wun Wun.

3. Ygritte had a long monologue about giants kidnapping humans and trying to mate with them. Giant male vs human females are always mortal however giants females vs human males have a chance of producing cross-breeds. I bet Tormund has giants blood. Also those hornfoot people have something to do with the giants.

4. Look at 3 :)

5. The Starks are not from the "tall Houses" (such as Baratheon, Clegane, Tully, Lannister etc.) and they are never mentioned to breed with Crannogmen.

6. Being old does not necessarily means knowing much. Ygritte knows all sorts of crazy things which Jon Snow has no clue. And she learned all of them from her mother. Old Nan's lore can be of similar origin.

I think it was Osha, not Ygritte that mentioned giants can mate with humans. She thought Hodor had giant blood. She did say however that only human males can mate with female giants, because male giants are too "big" for human females.