Theories (contains spoilers for all books)!

[atiggerx33]

I was unsure where to post this, the Dance With Dragons section seemed wrong since they were Winds of Winter and for those still reading and this will contain a lot of spoilers for those who are still reading. Admins please move this to the correct location if this isn't the right spot, sorry.

So my thoughts when reading were that we are aware that Dragonstone is a volcanic island, somewhat similar to Hawaii in creation I would imagine. We are aware it was originally a Targaryen seat until Robert Baratheon essentially exterminated them and gave it to Stannis. We are also aware of Stannis's complaints that his brother gave him Dragonstone when he, by rights, should have been given Storm's End which he has pointed out has far more wealth than Dragonstone. So why would Aegon the Conqueror who after winning Westeros with dragons could have any choice of land have picked Dragonstone when it was a poor, rocky, and barren by all accounts?

I believe for dragons. I believe its volcanic structure either makes it a prime breeding ground for dragons or where they lay their eggs. There are no other volcanoes mentioned in Westeros to my knowledge, and someone who had just conquered Westeros and planned on staying there who wanted to continue breeding dragons would need a volcano, they wouldn't want to bring their dragons to Valyria (which seems clear to me was destroyed by a volcano) every time an egg was laid or the dragons bred, or for their dragons to have to go their fly their and not come back. They would want their dragons around them at all times for protection.

Another concept was that of the Targaryen funeral and that of them wedding brother to sister (or cousin, nephew, niece, etc. inbreeding) for generations. We are introduced to the Targaryen funeral when Maester Aemon dies, in the books it is said that Targaryen funeral rights require them to be burnt on a funeral pyre, which isn't really thought of since it seems common. Dothraki burn their dead even the Tullys push their dead onto a river and then light them aflame. With the wedding brother to sister it seems to go against normalcy in all cultures mentioned around the world in ASOIAF, as well as leading to madness which the Targaryens must have been aware was happening towards the end when they had Maegar the Cruel, Aerys the Mad King, and others previously. Why continue a practice that had been causing damage to the line, and was considered negative by all cultures across the world?

I believe the funeral pyre originated as a way to hatch their dragons. One Targaryen killed himself when he believed that if he drank wildfire he would be reborn a dragon. I believe that perhaps he had found some writings of how dragons had been hatched and misinterpreted it. Yes, his death was required but he needed a dragon egg to be placed on a funeral pyre with him. I do not believe he may have necessarily been reborn a dragon as wargs spirits can go into their animals upon death, but it may happen that way, or he may have misinterpreted again, or it is just a belief the Targaryens have. Death paid for life, but not just any death, a death of one of the blood of Valyria was needed to hatch their dragons. The Targaryens are notably the only Valyrians who live in Westeros so they would have to inbreed to keep their Valyrian lines pure so they could hatch more dragons. This was why Aerys refused to wed his son Rhaegar to Cersei Lannister. She was an Andal, why else would Aerys (other than being mad, but that was said to come on later in life) refuse to wed his son to Cersei who was by all accounts beautiful, but more than that she was the daughter of the most powerful and wealthy man in Westeros outside of the possibly the King himself? Besides that the wife he did pick for his son (Elia of Dorne) was known to be sickly and from a line that was known to be poor stock when it came to birthing. She was also from a lesser house; not lesser in blood, Martells are the lords of Dorne, but weak in military as was mentioned when the Arianne tries to raise Dorne for Myrcella and her father scolds her and says they are not powerful enough to win even if he liked the idea. Aerys wed his heir to Elia solely because I believe she had Valyrian blood, it may have been diluted but it was still there enough so their children would still be pure enough. Over time the Targayens may have forgotten their reasons to keep their blood pure and for their funeral pyres but old traditions die hard.

That leads to the question of why did Daenery's dragon eggs hatch on Drogo's funeral pyre? And why weren't any eggs hatched by chance previously?

I believe Dany's eggs hatched for good reason. Those on the pyre that could have paid for their hatching are Dany herself (perhaps one does not necessarily need to die to hatch them, just on the pyre, its just that would kill most people), Drogo, Mirri Maz Duur, and a horse. We are going to exclude the horse, because I sincerely doubt the horse paid for the hatching. Dany had just lost her unborn child, who would have been Valyrian by 50% at least which could have paid for a hatching, but the child was not there. Perhaps part of him still existed in Dany's womb as she was not long from her still birth, and reports exist that with a still birth some of the baby can still be inside of the mother (very gross, but medical care at that time would not have existed to remove it, it would also explain Dany's fever if she had an infection from it). Either that or the magic from what happened to it lingered inside of her. Drogo could have been part Valyrian, we know Dothraki normally wed other Dothraki but Drogo went away from this when he wed Dany, perhaps his mother had been Valyrian; or perhaps the Dothraki are Valyrian themselves, an old offshoot from hundreds of thousands of years ago. The same could be said of the Lhazareen. The other payment could have been Viserys although he himself wasn't on the pyre the story of ASOIAF has a lot of magic thrown in, perhaps he was there in spirit. Or as Drogo slew Viserys so did Mirri Maz Duur slay Dany's unborn son. Perhaps putting their killers on the fire was sacrifice enough. No dragons eggs have hatched previously on accident because after the fall of Valyria with so few left of Valyrian blood the dragons started to go extinct due to no more eggs being able to be hatched. It would be an adequate explanation of why both seemed to go out of the world at the same time. The Targaryens, forgetting why their traditions were would not have just placed an egg onto a funeral pyre, thinking they were destroying it.

I know my theory has some flaws to it, the parts I am more sure about are why the Targaryens burn their dead, and why they decided Dragonstone would be their seat. I am less sure about which deaths paid for the Dany's dragons, perhaps it is just the magic of the world.

[SerBrandonDayne]

Im not sure if you have looked at the newly released princesses and the queen chapters. George basically states that the seat of Dragonstone used to be a very important position while dragons were alive. Someone theorized that the dragon pits in kings landing are more of a holding place for the dragons once they got to kings landing and that Dragonstone can be viewed as a breeding or bonding area.

[The guy from the Vale]

While Brandon Dayne's point is a good one, I think you're missing something here: Basically, Aegon the Conqueror didn't choose Dragonstone as his holding. Rather, it had been a Valyrian outpost for centuries, and under Targaryen control for over 100 years. As for why the Valyrians didn't try to establish a presence on the Westerosi mainland remains to be seen...

[SerBrandonDayne]

I agree, you cannot be sure that when the Targaryens fled Valyria and the Doom they stopped on dragonstone simply because it was the first friendly position safe from the destruction or if they sought out the ideal location for their dragons. Right now the only evidence that they might have sought out Dragonstone is that it does seem to have some sort of magic qualities. on the other hand Dragonstone istelf is said to have been made through magic and that it looks like dragons turned to stone. that coupled with the whole Valyrin steel needs magic spells to be created leaves me thinking that the early Targs could have easily woven spells that are having the effects we are seeing.

[atiggerx33]

Perhaps Valyrian steel doesn't need magic but dragonfire. We have learned the narrator can be wrong in the books, those who are alive have never seen a Valyrian steel blade forged, so they have to take the word of whoever told them and through generations stories change. Dragon fire is a sort of magic, so perhaps the story just got a bit twisted over the years. Either way I think Dragonstone is very important to dragons as either a breeding ground or where eggs are laid, I cannot imagine any other good reason for the royal family of Westeros to take a barren rock as their seat, they could have changed it upon The Conquest to somewhere more wealthy and fertile and transported their eggs to King's Landing or a different new location. If the land was important and they did that though the dragons would still lay their eggs in the same spot, and perhaps someone else's new keep, and the Targaryen's most certainly did not want someone else getting their hands on the eggs. I believe the stone dragons of Dragonstone are just statues. They may have been magically crafted, or just carved (yes it would take a very long time, but if the Wall could be built so could giant carved dragons). I believe the stone dragons from the prophecy are Daenerys' eggs, as Illyrio stating "the years have turned them to stone..." (took the quote from the show but I believe he said the same line in the book, or one similar still saying that they were stone though) and Dany herself mentioning them being made of stone. I believe Melisandre is wrong about Stannis being the one in the prophecy. Daenerys was most definitely born among smoke and salt. She was born on dragonstone (salt water) the smoke of her father's falling kingdom. It could also be a reference to her being reborn among the smoke of the Khal's funeral pyre (I also believe the pyre was by the sea though not entirely sure). The day she was reborn was when the comet showed up which is also in the prophecy.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Well his family had lived on Dragonstone for something like 200 years, so it's understandable why for that reason alone he didn't abandon it after the conquest.

[atiggerx33]

Well his family had lived on Dragonstone for something like 200 years, so it's understandable why for that reason alone he didn't abandon it after the conquest.

I just don't picture the Targaryen's of old as the sentimental types. My curiosity is more to why they went all the way across the narrow sea to begin with to claim such a barren little island, even though they obviously knew all of Westeros (fertile, wealthy) existed. They could have claimed a more fertile island or land. Instead they picked a small volcanic rock far away from their home, I cannot see them doing this for no reason unless it contained a valuable resource (dragon's eggs).

[emintey]

Well, I think we can way overhthink things with little evidence. I can understand that with so many mysteries in the series. Clearly the targaryens weaved magic into their castle at Dargonstone but I see no reason to think that Dragonstone was chosen for anything but a good jumping off point for the invasion of Westeros and not for volcanic reasons. Clearly also, while interbreeding among the targaryns was common they also commonly wed outside of Valyrian blood as Rhaegar did

.

The one theory that I think has a lot of creedance is that Melisandre is not what she appears to be. Clearly in all mythology Melisandre has the characteristics of a "witch" and witches are typcially portrayed as old crones as an archetype who will cloak their appearance in beauty to seduce the unsuspecting, also we know she has the power to produce a "glamour" as she does with Mance Rayder and that it is also mentioned somewhere in the series that she is quite old so it is likely that she is really an old crone.

I also dont necessarily buy into the theory that Jon Snow is Lyana starks son by Rhaegar though of course it coud be. The thing that works against it is that as they figured out that Cersei's children were not Robert's offspring because they did not have his hair color, so by the logic of Westeros Jon Snow should have targaryen hair and he doesnt. I dont know who Jon Snow's mother is (though if i recall one of the chararacters did think he knew and told Arya), though hopefully we will find out if Martin ever actually gets around to publishing more books.

[Myk Lonmouth]

I also dont necessarily buy into the theory that Jon Snow is Lyana starks son by Rhaegar though of course it coud be. The thing that works against it is that as they figured out that Cersei's children were not Robert's offspring because they did not have his hair color, so by the logic of Westeros Jon Snow should have targaryen hair and he doesnt. I dont know who Jon Snow's mother is (though if i recall one of the chararacters did think he knew and told Arya), though hopefully we will find out if Martin ever actually gets around to publishing more books.

They figured out Cersei's children weren't Bob's because all of his many many bastards had Baratheon looks. The Baratheon seed is strong. That wouldn't translate to all Westeros children will look like their fathers, just that Robert's children all look alike except for the ones he had with the Queen which makes them suspect. Jon is said to look a lot like Arya and her father Ned while Robb and Sansa have more of their mother's looks. Jon would share these traits with her because they're cousins and he just took more after his mother than his father.

[Pearlblue5]

They figured out Cersei's children weren't Bob's because all of his many many bastards had Baratheon looks. The Baratheon seed is strong. That wouldn't translate to all Westeros children will look like their fathers, just that Robert's children all look alike except for the ones he had with the Queen which makes them suspect. Jon is said to look a lot like Arya and her father Ned while Robb and Sansa have more of their mother's looks. Jon would share these traits with her because they're cousins and he just took more after his mother than

The Stark seed is strong.

I think atiggerx33, brought up a really good point. Weren't Dragon's originally found in the Fourteen Fires, which were clearly volcanoes. Not sure if the stone dragons on dragonstone are actually dragons, but I do believe the volcanic activity was either familiar to the targaryens who first landed there or the source of magic from the dragons is really from the volcanoes. I'd like to think it is. And it makes sense that "death pays for life" as a method for breeding dragons. However what confuses me is that George states that Dragon's have no gender and if breeding involves this whole burning of someone with Valyrian blood, how did they breed dragon's before (did they always have to wait for someone to die/sacrifice someone)? Do all Dragon's lay eggs?

I totally agree that the stone dragons Melissandre was referring to, were the eggs Dany had. From the last few chapters in ADwD, I think Melissandre has been seeing Dany this whole time as azor ahai reborn but has been interpreting it wrong.

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

The tough thing is GRRM uses hair colors to assign heritage to 3 of the 4 main houses (silver for T, Gold for L, black for B...(?) for Starks....Plus Rob and Sansa who are definitely the weakest of the Starks as far as coolness/smarts/goodness and thus take after Cat and the Tully look(who I don't care what you say is 90% an idiot throughout all of the chapters she is in...)...Plus, think of it this way...Jon Snow is quite possibly (if not definitely) supposed to be the biggest reveal in the entire book...It's not like GRRM can give it away by saying he has black hair with uncanny silver lining in it.

With that said, there are just waaaaaayyyyyy too many reasons as to why Jon Snow is not Ned's bastard than reasons for him being so...They've all been listed in other threads, so I'm going to just point to the ones that have the strongest case...

1) Ned Stark, who can't even smile or laugh 99% of the time and has no warmth, is supposed to have a major lapse in honor/morals and impregnates someone not his wife when he just got married...highly highly doubtful.

2) The dreams he has of his sister definitely give you enough to know his sis died in childbirth...Plus why would so many kings guard be left defending her when Rhaegar and Aerys were each in different locations...unless their was more important royal blood elsewhere aka in the tower with her.

3) Technically Jon shouldn't be even a Snow since he wasn't born a bastard in the North...all the bastards mentioned in the book take the bastard surnames from where they were born, not from where their fathers are from or where they eventually reside in.

4) Ned Stark fathering a bastard but then not being able to talk about it EVER??? If anything, if it were his, his honor would have made him come clean about who Jon's mother was and what the circumstances...at least to King Bob...but instead he tells him to never bring it up ever again.

I just want to hear some reasons as to how Jon Snow COULD be Ned's besides he has the face of a Stark and Ned says it's his bastard.