Joffery an abomination, while Dany is not?

[Jasta11]

In-universe, it's because Dany was born in wedlock, and that the Targaryens had a free pass for the whole incest business, being kings. Also the fact we have 0 POVs of Dany's enemies helps somewhat I would guess.

Out of universe, well it seems obvious enough. Joffrey is a borderline sadistic little shit, while Dany is a much greyer character.

[Light a wight tonight]

I don't think Joff is so much an abomination as simply an abominable human being. And i don't recall seeing him referred to as an abomination here, at least often. Myrcella, Tommen, and even Gilly are products of incest and aren't called on that. Well, maybe by Stannis, but he gets his knickers in a knot over all sorts of stuff.

[cocoalover1956]

Will someone please explain whether difference between legality of giving birth of a child from incestuous relationship is that important? So, Joffrey is abomination because his parents weren't legally married, and Daenerys isn't because they were forced to get married. And how come that consent isn't important here, after all, Dany was most likely conceived by a rape. But, I imagine that doesn't count... I am appalled by the "logic" of these posts. Lastly, will someone explain me how defenestration makes Cersei's children abominate?

I never said that Joffrey was an abomination and Daenerys wasn't, just that there are more negative things associated with the incest that produced Joffrey than there are with the incest that produced Daenerys and they are more frequently brought up. So it makes it easiest to slap the "abomination" label on him. Yes the rape counts and thank you for pointing that out because I forgot about it.

Whether or not their parents were married doesn't make a difference in if they're abomination. It's just another check point in the list of what people consider decent. People look down on bastardy even though its not a fair way to judge someone. It has a negative connotation in Westeros that's frequently brought up, even if the people reading don't have any personal ill feelings toward illegitimate children.

The defenestration of Bran doesn't make Cersei's kids abominate, its just another bad thing tied to the affair that produced them.

[Mladen]

I never said that Joffrey was an abomination and Daenerys wasn't, just that there are more negative things associated with the incest that produced Joffrey than there are with the incest that produced Daenerys and they are more frequently brought up. So it makes it easiest to slap the "abomination" label on him. Yes the rape counts and thank you for pointing that out because I forgot about it.

Whether or not their parents were married doesn't make a difference in if they're abomination. It's just another check point in the list of what people consider decent. People look down on bastardy even though its not a fair way to judge someone. It has a negative connotation in Westeros that's frequently brought up, even if the people reading don't have any personal ill feelings toward illegitimate children.

The defenestration of Bran doesn't make Cersei's kids abominate, its just another bad thing tied to the affair that produced them.

This double standards truly annoy me. I am sorry, but your post seemed to play that card. If we agree to call products of incestuous relationships abominations, then we should call them all, but somehow that is not the point here. Simply, Joffrey is a horrible human being and the adjective sticks to him rather easily. Simply, Dany, Tommen, Myrcella, Gilly, all of them are relatively good human beings and using abominable in their description is rather wrong. So, incest doesn't make someone abomination.

Second, we have out of wedlock factor. There are plenty decent bastards out there that we simply can't call abomination, from Gendry and Edric Storm to Jon, Mya etc... There is nothing abominate about bastards too...

Joffrey isn't abominate because he is bastard born out of incest, he is abominate because he is psychopath... It's that simple.

[grand old duke of stark]

It's much more than mere incest. In Dany's case, she is the product of an accepted behaviour pattern in her family. Jaime and Cersei were judged by other Westerosi standards. But they did more than commit incest. Worse, she commited adultery. Worse, it was adultery against the king.

Nevertheless, IMO the reason Joffrey might be considered an 'abomination' is the cumulative effect of his character and actions. He was a coward, unjust, a sadist, a liar, a schemer, cruel, a mommy's boy, etc AND the most powerful man in the kingdom. He commited some abominable acts. Dany was an unprepared girl who wanted to do what was right, though she made many mistakes along the way. Though she commited some acts that were cruel, she did seek justice, she did care about people, and she tried to do what was right. Honestly, no comparison.

[Mladen]

It's much more than mere incest. In Dany's case, she is the product of an accepted behaviour pattern in her family. Jaime and Cersei were judged by other Westerosi standards. But they did more than commit incest. Worse, she commited adultery. Worse, it was adultery against the king.

So, between adultery and rape, which one is more likely to create abomination?

And I mean, really, adultery creates abominations... This sounds like medieval clergy would preach.

[Dany Girl]

You know, there were times I had to actually make an effort for good counter-argument... These days, between all the hatred, flawed logic, misconceptions, it all has become too easy... Yes, I admit there are still posters and posts that can make me think and make me analyze profoundly material, but it is rarity these days...

oh I agree. The idea that Joff is an abomination because he was born of adultery or because he's a bastard is ridiculous. If bastards are abominations then Jon is an abomination, as are the Sand Snakes. If children born of adultery are abominations then Gendry, Mya, and Edric are.

As I said earlier, I don't think Joff is an abomination. He's a monster, not an abomination. He didn't chose his parents, or even know who his true father was. Sorry, his parents incest is one thing you can't pin on him.

[The Mother of The Others]

he chose abominable behavior

[PeterPaulGualtieri]

Who all calls the Lannister brood abominations? Stannis, maybe Davos (quoting his King) and the Sparrows, right? Is there any one else?

[Rhymes with Weak]

he chose abominable behavior

As did she.

[The Mother of The Others]

She also tried other stuff, as did not he.

[Rhymes with Weak]

She also tried other stuff, as did not he.

Is that a question?

[The Mother of The Others]

No?

[cocoalover1956]

This double standards truly annoy me. I am sorry, but your post seemed to play that card. If we agree to call products of incestuous relationships abominations, then we should call them all, but somehow that is not the point here. Simply, Joffrey is a horrible human being and the adjective sticks to him rather easily. Simply, Dany, Tommen, Myrcella, Gilly, all of them are relatively good human beings and using abominable in their description is rather wrong. So, incest doesn't make someone abomination.

Second, we have out of wedlock factor. There are plenty decent bastards out there that we simply can't call abomination, from Gendry and Edric Storm to Jon, Mya etc... There is nothing abominate about bastards too...

Joffrey isn't abominate because he is bastard born out of incest, he is abominate because he is psychopath... It's that simple.

I'm slightly confused by the tone of your response, and somehow I get the feeling that we're not on the same page, which is probably my fault; I've been told my communication skills need work.

Personally, I agree with your arguments in this post and there definitely is a double standard as to why people call Joffrey an abomination and not Daenerys. You thought I was arguing in favor of that double standard? No, I was just offering a possible theory as to why its in place. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

[Mladen]

I'm slightly confused by the tone of your response, and somehow I get the feeling that we're not on the same page, which is probably my fault; I've been told my communication skills need work.

Personally, I agree with your arguments in this post and there definitely is a double standard as to why people call Joffrey an abomination and not Daenerys. You thought I was arguing in favor of that double standard? No, I was just offering a possible theory as to why its in place. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that.

No, we are on the same page, I just used your post to expand why we can't call either of them abomination. Sorry for that.

[FullSizeTyrion]

Going off on a bit of a tangent, are we sure joff thought he was robert's offspring? If so, why try to kill bran?

Perhaps he was aware that jamie is his dad, perhaps someone told him. Kevan?

[FullSizeTyrion]

Even if that isn't true, he still knew cercei was usurping ned as regent.

[PeterPaulGualtieri]

Going off on a bit of a tangent, are we sure joff thought he was robert's offspring? If so, why try to kill bran?

Perhaps he was aware that jamie is his dad, perhaps someone told him. Kevan?

I don't think so. I think it was a combination of the contempt he had for Robb and Joff being a shithead to the nth degree.

No way Ser Kevan would do that. I think Tyrion mentions in a chapter from Book 1 that his uncle never had a thought his brother Tywin hadn't had before. Also, Kevan is a company man, he's not going to mention something like that to anyone.

[grand old duke of stark]

So, between adultery and rape, which one is more likely to create abomination?

And I mean, really, adultery creates abominations... This sounds like medieval clergy would preach.

I don't think either necessarily creates an abomination. And that word gives me chills. Joffrey is a horrid person, but even so I think it inappropriate. It's a word the OP used. Whatever people call Joffrey, his deeds are what make him such a villain.

[Tetrarch42]

Daenerys isn't considered an abomination because Targaryens are exempt from normal judgement by virtue of being Targaryens. From a moral standard Daenerys has plenty to criticize, but she's no incorrigible psychopath like Joffrey.