Guest Gift cancels out Guest Right?

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

He gave them some time to escape.Those Freys were given the best horses and they were going ahead of the group.If I am not mistaken Lady Freys are alive but those men are dead.

Hmm, that sounds more familiar and make more sense. Bad horses would be suspicious, and he'd want them to ride out far enough to where there would be no witnesses.

:)

[Julian Rayne]

They likely didn't realize that for any one of a number of reasons (too southron, too arrogant, too stupid, etc.), but ignorance of the law is not a defense, etc. etc.

Manderly is kinda playing Lawyerball with the customs of the first men by giving the Freys guest gifts to end their guest right so he can have them jumped and murdered but he's technically in the clear, which is all he really cares about as it still leaves him as better than the outright Guest Custom violating Freys.

I may be misremembering but I think that guest gift is a Southron idea.

I don't quite understand why Manderly had to play Lawyerball. The Freys gave up any claims to protection under guest right with the Red Wedding.

Ok. But are you obliged to give the guys some time to escape?

I don't know how it works elsewhere, but here in Brazil we usually receive a little basket with gifts at weddings to remember the day in the future.

I'll start to get seriously paranoid at weddings from now on when said gifts appear.

Only if the band is horrible and the bridegroom licks his lips whenever he looks at you.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

I don't quite understand why Manderly had to play Lawyerball. The Freys gave up any claims to protection under guest right with the Red Wedding.

Because proper revenge also means (technically) not stooping to their level. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You can't violate guest right to get your poetic justice style revenge (see The Rat Cook) but you can certainly have your revenge as bloody as you dare make it.

EDIT: Also everybody has a vested interest in the custom of guest right being maintained so if EVERYBODY starts breaking it society collapses because nobody would ever dare parley or negotiate in good faith again as they would always assume the offer of such = a trap. Now that the door is opened, as Jaime Lannister says about the kingsguard, it has to be closed again, immediately.

Manderly remains within the boundaries of custom and "fair play" and punishes the Freys brutally. Win-win.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I don't quite understand why Manderly had to play Lawyerball. The Freys gave up any claims to protection under guest right with the Red Wedding.

Because he can. It is one more way to stick it to the Freys: "That's the proper way to murder your guests, ya scumbags! Want another helping of pie?"

[Buckthorn]

All I can say is Lord Manderly is my new hero after evading the breaking of guest right by killing the 3 Freys after giving them gifts.

[Gneisenau]

So the RW would totally be okay if the Freys gave Robb a gift and he accepted the gift ?

[jon stark I]

So the RW would totally be okay if the Freys gave Robb a gift and he accepted the gift ?

Gift is given when your Host is leaving.And I think it isn't just like "okey take the gifts, archers kill them" kind of a thing.Frey men rode away and they were killed far away from Manderly host.Ladies are still alive.

[Buckthorn]

So the RW would totally be okay if the Freys gave Robb a gift and he accepted the gift ?

Hell yeah, Robb had it coming!!!!

[sarah.jenice]

Gift is given when your Host is leaving.And I think it isn't just like "okey take the gifts, archers kill them" kind of a thing.Frey men rode away and they were killed far away from Manderly host.Ladies are still alive.

I agree.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

guest rights are based on the religion of the Seven so I doubt they have the same rules outright in Essos. They probably do have something similar since most feudal societies had something similar, like don't shoot the messenger. There are also places where violence is prohibited, like Vaes Dothrak.

I don't think so. Because if it was true then Starks, who are not followers of the seven, have no case against Late Lord Frey. Also Mance mentions otherwise

Once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree …

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I don't think so. Because if it was true then Starks, who are not followers of the seven, have no case against Late Lord Frey. Also Mance mentions otherwise

Yeah; Catelyn specifically makes sure that they have guest right when they arrive at the Twins. A wise choice if only they were such devious, murderous, treacherous... not important. Point is, Catelyn, Robb, and the other Northmen (who would be worshippers of the OG) made sure they had guest right

[BearIslander]

There has to be some criterion to determine where the guest right ends. The Guest Gift is just the thing for such a criterion.

BTW, everybody can see how Freys even try to justify RW at Lord Manderly's court, by lying that Northerners started the fight.

[devilrob6]

So the RW would totally be okay if the Freys gave Robb a gift and he accepted the gift ?

No. it would still be murder and massacre, just like Manderly's actions are still murder. The only difference is that the Frey's would not have broken quest rights if they had given gifts to Robb (and all the other guests).

Yeah; Catelyn specifically makes sure that they have guest right when they arrive at the Twins. A wise choice if only they were such devious, murderous, treacherous... not important. Point is, Catelyn, Robb, and the other Northmen (who would be worshippers of the OG) made sure they had guest right

If i remember well guest right is also practised North of the Wall. Doesn't Mance mention it to Jon? And Mormont at Craster's keep? And it's also mentioned in the South (in the Vale) in the chapter with Littlefinger, Lyn Corbray and the Lord Declarants. Their reaction when Corbray draws a sword: "Are you a Frey or a Corbray?". It seems to be a rule that's all over Westeros, so it's more probable to be from the First Men

.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If i remember well guest right is also practised North of the Wall. Doesn't Mance mention it to Jon? And Mormont at Craster's keep? And it's also mentioned in the South (in the Vale) in the chapter with Littlefinger, Lyn Corbray and the Lord Declarants. Their reaction when Corbray draws a sword: "Are you a Frey or a Corbray?". It seems to be a rule that's all over Westeros, so it's more probable to be from the First Men

True:

In the north, we hold the laws of hospitality sacred still. [Roose]

The gods will curse us … There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man's hall. [Mormont]

Once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree … [Mance]

[Iona]

No. it would still be murder and massacre, just like Manderly's actions are still murder. The only difference is that the Frey's would not have broken quest rights if they had given gifts to Robb (and all the other guests).

.

Technically, even if presents were given to Robb and his host, Frey's killing him is not just murder, it's regicide (they swore fealty to the KitN), and you get your head chopped off for that for sure, right? So one way or another, laws and habits and customs aside, the Freys would still be disgusting weasels.

Manderly is just your ordinary lovable little murderer, but I'm inclined to pardon him for that. :P

[Dany Girl]

Manderly is just your ordinary lovable little murderer, but I'm inclined to pardon him for that. :P

Manderly = Dexter of Westeros

sure he's a murder, but he kills the bad guys so we forgive him

[Tetrarch42]

The gift indicates that the Guest Right has ended, Manderly was covering his ass in the eyes of Gods and men.

[BranBrokeLegs]

Ok. But are you obliged to give the guys some time to escape?

I don't know how it works elsewhere, but here in Brazil we usually receive a little basket with gifts at weddings to remember the day in the future.

I'll start to get seriously paranoid at weddings from now on when said gifts appear.

Lol, its not like giving a gift to someone means that its open season on them. And it doesn't mean that if you leave someone's house without getting a gift that you are still covered by guest right. Manderly is playing with the Freys (i.e. notice the songs he has Abel/Mance sing at the wedding reception). The gifts (especially the gift of a horse) is a wink and nod that your guests are leaving and not covered by that taboo. Killing them is still ILLEGAL! It doesn't matter how close or far away they are from the Manderly's castle. It's just another way of Manderly messing with them, in a way they don't notice.

[jon stark I]

Lol, its not like giving a gift to someone means that its open season on them. And it doesn't mean that if you leave someone's house without getting a gift that you are still covered by guest right. Manderly is playing with the Freys (i.e. notice the songs he has Abel/Mance sing at the wedding reception). The gifts (especially the gift of a horse) is a wink and nod that your guests are leaving and not covered by that taboo. Killing them is still ILLEGAL! It doesn't matter how close or far away they are from the Manderly's castle. It's just another way of Manderly messing with them, in a way they don't notice.

Manderly is suggesting that he is playing by the rules.As much as he wants revenge he is still disgusted by being just like the Freys.That is why he espacially says about the gift rule.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

As for Guest Right in Essos/Pentos: (paraphrasing) Tyrion says how it is a great crime in Westeros to poison (mushrooms) a guest. Illyrio responds that they have a similar thing there, but then mentions if a guest desires death, the host is obliged to give it to him.