which great house can field the largest army?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Rodrick should be in the know and he states that he's not worried about manpower and that if Robb needs more men he'll have no problem raising those men.

I don't think anyone doubts the Starks can raise more than 20,000. But I remain unconvinced Ser Rodrik could have raised an additional 20,000, let alone an additional 30,000, even without Ramsay's treachery.

[The Fallen]

` Yeah, I'm definitely not implying that. I was thinking more like 5,000-10,000 men. To get to 20,000 would probably require Robb's presence and a lot of time.

[Fat Mac]

I think when people say numbers like 40-50k, they refer to scraping the barrel for the absolute most people the North could possibly raise. This means the absolute most men each house can raise, including the Mountain clans and Skagos houses. A host like this would be too large to really ever assemble imo without like a years prep, given the size and population density of the North.

During the Conquest, Torrhen Stark marched south with 30,000. This is the most at one time we ever see the North raise. Robb raised 18,000 in a quick amount of time, while Torrhen had time to gather his forces while Aegon was busy with the other Kingdoms. So I'd guess 30-35k is the most the North could raise without scraping the barrel, and looking in every nook and cranny for men.

[Ours if the Fury]

In this order

1. Tyrell's (70,000+)
   
2. Lannister's (60,000)
   
3. Arryan's (50,000)
   
4. Martell's (30,000+)
   
5. Grey-joys (30,000)
   
6. Stark's (30,000)
   
7. Tully's (30,000)
   
8. Baratheon's (25,000)
   

these are estimates i dont know the exact numbers

[redtree]

In this order

1. Tyrell's (70,000+)

Lannister's (60,000)

Arryan's (50,000)

Martell's (30,000+)

Grey-joys (30,000)

Stark's (30,000)

Tully's (30,000)

Baratheon's (25,000)

these are estimates i dont know the exact numbers

Tyrell definitely in 80-90k range, no more than that

Lannister can reach 60k, if they hire sellswords

Arryn 50k and Tully 30k ? That just doesn't make any sense. Both are fertile but Riverland are bigger than Vale

Above argument same with Baratheon 25k and Greyjoy 30k

Starks number are low, they can raise 35k. 50k is possible if they are willing to take more time for drafting men

[Ours if the Fury]

Tully doesnt have that bigger banner-men, the freys are there biggest and they never go to war... no when the tully's and the starks joined they had a big army both alone not really

The Vale has big banner-men! hence why a higher number then the tully's

And with th storm lands tiny houses the biggest is florent...

[Free Northman]

Tully doesnt have that bigger banner-men, the freys are there biggest and they never go to war... no when the tully's and the starks joined they had a big army both alone not really

The Vale has big banner-men! hence why a higher number then the tully's

And with th storm lands tiny houses the biggest is florent...

The Riverlands probably have a significantly larger population than the Vale. The Riverlands is just divided and has weak borders. The Tully armies you see in the war are the remnants that they could scrounge together after signficant areas had already been overrun by the Lannisters.

If the Tully's were united and could gather all their forces in advance, they would have one of the largest armies in Westeros.

[Mr Fixit]

I always felt the Vale is overrated on these boards, all thanks to semicanon sources - Martin mentioning somewhere they are comparable to North. But when looking at the map, it's obvious a huge percentage of their lands comprises of inhospitable mountains inhabited by mountain clans. Their "civilised" areas aren't actually all that big. Even allowing for huge population density, it still doesn't seem likely they are able to raise 40-50k. I'd say (and this comes totally outta my ass, though if you're generous you could say it's an educated guess) their real total is around 30K tops.

Please do disagree. I'm all for some sweet sweet number crunching.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I imagine the Vale might keep more fighting men behind than other regions in order to deal with the Mountain Clans as well

[Mr Fixit]

I imagine the Vale might keep more fighting men behind than other regions in order to deal with the Mountain Clans as well

True. In any war away from home they wouldn't be able to deploy the full extent of their forces because of the clans.

[The Fallen]

` In a similar vein to Mr. Fixity, with the kind of numbers the Reach has how is it that they've never dominated Westwros? Even preconquest.

Heck, even the current generation, with all that manpower, resorted to hitching their wagon to Renly, then the Lannisters. And they've gained influence through subterfuge rather than force.

Corrected.

[Mr Fixit]

` In a similar vein to Mr. Fixity, with the kind of numbers the Vale has how is it that they've never dominated Westwros? Even preconquest.

Heck, even the current generation, with all that manpower, resorted to hitching their wagon to Renly, then the Lannisters. And they've gained influence through subterfuge rather than force.

You're talking about the Reach methinks. :)

[Free Northman]

I always felt the Vale is overrated on these boards, all thanks to semicanon sources - Martin mentioning somewhere they are comparable to North. But when looking at the map, it's obvious a huge percentage of their lands comprises of inhospitable mountains inhabited by mountain clans. Their "civilised" areas aren't actually all that big. Even allowing for huge population density, it still doesn't seem likely they are able to raise 40-50k. I'd say (and this comes totally outta my ass, though if you're generous you could say it's an educated guess) their real total is around 30K tops.

Please do disagree. I'm all for some sweet sweet number crunching.

Well Martin's quote was that these 3 regions (Dorne, the Vale and the North) can more or less field a similiar number of men. But he wasn't too specific about it, and it was in the very early days of the series - around the year 2003 or thereabouts.

That doesn't mean that they were exactly the same. Just more or less similar.

This was in the days when he still had Dorne at around 50,000 men. It was only about a decade later that he downgraded them to maybe half their initial number. And when asked whether the North had also been downgraded, he diverted the question by saying that one has to remember that the North is much larger than Dorne.

So it seems pretty clear that the North has not been downgraded from his initial thoughts. In fact, I think the scrapping of the 5 year gap forced him to actually UPGRADE the North, for plot reasons. Hence all the previously untapped northern forces that are coming out of the woodwork all over the place in Dance.

My view:

Dorne has 25k men.

The Vale has 35-40k

The North has 45k.

[Mr Fixit]

Well Martin's quote was that these 3 regions (Dorne, the Vale and the North) can more or less field a similiar number of men. But he wasn't too specific about it, and it was in the very early days of the series - around the year 2003 or thereabouts.

That doesn't mean that they were exactly the same. Just more or less similar.

This was in the days when he still had Dorne at around 50,000 men. It was only about a decade later that he downgraded them to maybe half their initial number. And when asked whether the North had also been downgraded, he diverted the question by saying that one has to remember that the North is much larger than Dorne.

So it seems pretty clear that the North has not been downgraded from his initial thoughts. In fact, I think the scrapping of the 5 year gap forced him to actually UPGRADE the North, for plot reasons. Hence all the previously untapped northern forces that are coming out of the woodwork all over the place in Dance.

My view:

Dorne has 25k men.

The Vale has 35-40k

The North has 45k.

Yeah, but it's still unclear where all these Vale men would come from, keeping in mind that the majority of Arryn lands are extremely mountainous and overrun with savage clans. It's simply too many men. Again, if we put aside Martin's comments, as they aren't canon after all, what would your conclusion be after looking at the map?

[The Fallen]

You're talking about the Reach methinks. :)

Yes, sorry. Will fix it.

[Free Northman]

Yeah, but it's still unclear where all these Vale men would come from, keeping in mind that the majority of Arryn lands are extremely mountainous and overrun with savage clans. It's simply too many men.

The valley at the centre of the Vale - the actual Vale of Arryn part of the former Kingdom of Mountain and Vale - is described as even more fertile than the Reach. And this valley is maybe 50 miles wide by 200 miles long, I would guess. That's 10,000 square miles.

EDIT

Sorry, my maths let me down there for a moment. I need to recalculate.

[Sansa_Stark]

No need? Robb was kicking ass in the Riverlands and Westerlands. Plus after the IB attacked the North they needed men at home too.

What I don't understand is why Rodrek felt the need to empty the entire garrison for Winterfell to attack Dagmer.

They still had 20000+ men in the north.

[Free Northman]

What I don't understand is why Rodrek felt the need to empty the entire garrison for Winterfell to attack Dagmer.

They still had 20000+ men in the north.

This is the important distinction. Rodrik didn't have 20,000 men. Lords Karstark, Umber, Mormont, Bolton, the Mountain Clans, Skagos, Hornwood, Manderly, Glover, Cerwyn, Tallhart, Dustin, Flint Ryswell, Locke and Reed had 20,000.

This after they had already let 20,000 go with Robb. They would not happily just give 20,000 more, without varying levels of enforcement, intimidation and perhaps even direct threats. Rodrik was not in a position to do that with all the lords.

There is some indication that House Talhart is some kind of steward/cadet branch for House Stark, given that they are a Masterly House, not a Lordly House. I suspect this dates back to Torhenn Stark, given that their castle is named Torhenn Square. Hence when Eddard needs some immediate men, he reverts to them first, rather than to his more esteemed vassals who may need a bit more convincing. Remember that Eddard ordered the Tallharts to send 200 bowmen to Moat Cailin when he first heard of Lysa's theories about Jon Arryn's death. This was interesting, given that the Tallharts are located quite far from the Neck, compared to the Dustins who are much closer. Clearly the Tallharts are all but seen as an extension of the Starks themselves.

Similarly, it seems House Cerwyn is on very good terms with House Stark, being only a day's ride away. The Cerwyns too are used for quick response troops.

So too the Manderlys, who seem to constantly respond with troops when called to. They sent barges with knights and men at arms at Rodrik's behest when he wanted to face the Ironborn.

So it seems that in the absence of a Stark lord, and after the Stark's vassals had already been taxed with sending their best men south with Robb, rather than test their loyalty further than he had to without express orders from Robb, Rodrik chose to fall back on men he could rely on without any risk. The Tallharts, Glovers, Cerwyns and Manderlys. The Hornwoods too seem to fall into this category.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

` In a similar vein to Mr. Fixity, with the kind of numbers the Reach has how is it that they've never dominated Westwros? Even preconquest.

Heck, even the current generation, with all that manpower, resorted to hitching their wagon to Renly, then the Lannisters. And they've gained influence through subterfuge rather than force.

Corrected.

Because the Reach is open to all sides and borders four different regions, add the open coast for the Ironborn and the later Crownlands and you'll have a region forced to always watch their backs and keep troops at home.

That's similar to the Riverlands, which was the whipping boy of Westeros because of it.

Every other region has two open borders, max, and advantages for defense, like the Neck, the Mountains of the Moon, the Golden Tooth or the Dornish Marches.

What I don't understand is why Rodrek felt the need to empty the entire garrison for Winterfell to attack Dagmer.

They still had 20000+ men in the north.

Because of time constraints and plot reasons Torrhen's Square was besieged, Rodrik had to hurry. He took two or three weeks to get there and gathered up everything on his way.

If he'd send for reinforcements from say Last Hearth, he'd have to wait for several months. A month for marching from Last Hearth to Winterfell, two months for marching the troops out of the backwaters to Last Hearth, another month for sending couriers from Last Hearth into the backwaters. Give or take.

Four months and they haven't even left Winterfell!

[Mr Fixit]

This was interesting, given that the Tallharts are located quite far from the Neck, compared to the Dustins who are much closer. Clearly the Tallharts are all but seen as an extension of the Starks themselves.

There is of course another possible explanation. Maybe Martin's original AGoT plan didn't include Dustins as a major house. He may have "upgraded" them in ADwD when he scrapped the gap.