Can the Wight Walkers really climb the wall to enter the 7 Kingdoms?

[The Fourth Head]

Reading Bran, ADWD, one line struck me- hard.

"Meera led the way back up the hill, jabbing at the wights when they came near. The things could not be hurt, but they were slow and clumsy"

Are we to assume then that these slow clumsy zombies will organise themselves into teams with ropes, fit bone toothed footwear to their feet, and use hammers and spikes to achieve a day-long climb up a wall that only the most skillful and agile of the wildlings could achieve, before then unwinding cunningly woven wight walker rope ladders to lower down to enable more of them to make the climb faster?

Isn't it far more likely that they will reach the bottom of the wall and start pawing and groping at the ice, en masse, hoping for the wall to give way?

These are rotting corpses, many dismembered by wild animals, men, or Others, many being frail dead women, dead children. They have major physical limitations.

Furthermore, they have major mental limitations. They seem incapable of speech, and as Meera observed, they move slowly and clumsily- which doesn't seem indicative of a lucid mind. Their minds seem composed of a few memories of the deceased, coupled with the shared conscience of someone or something warging many of them simultaneously an a way that doesn't grant them much in the way of intelligence and coordination.

My opinion is, Bowen Marsh was more right that we do him credit for when he suggested sealing the gates.

The threat isn't that the wall will be scaled en-masse, but that the attackers will channel their efforts into finding a way through the gates. Just as Mance's army of 100,000 wildlings did not consider scaling the wall en-masse as a realistic option, and just as the Weeper has not considered going round the wall through the gorge, (there must be a very good geographical reason for why the Wall ends there- ie, the gorge posing as much of an obstacle as the wall) why would a very similarly composed army of wight walkers, robbed of their intelligence/agility, pose any more of a threat?

I posit that the wight walkers attacking the wall is a phantom menace. Jon is assuming that the wight walkers can scale the wall when I think it is highly dubious. I think the Wight Walkers' true threat is through the fear they engender in others, and the divisions the cause in the defenders agreeing how best to deal with the threat. They forced wildlings to unite under Val's sisters Husband, and attack the wall en-masse, and encouraged a LC to let ancient enemies through to eventually kill the NW. Furthermore, if they are a creation of Vals, and she is a norse priestess capable of wielding ice magic for her own people's ends, then she has effectively played Jon for a fool by appealing to his humanity to allow the wildlings through the wall to invade the 7 kingdoms.

I love Jon, but it wouldn't be the first time a Stark's humanity has backfired.

[The Fourth Head]

No opinions?

[Ted Chang]

I wonder if they won't just sort of meld with the wall and come straight through, magic-like.

[Pingslayer]

Agree. The gate was the key. But didnt Jon do something like capturing two wights at the Wall to inspect them? If the Others cannot pass thru I think these wights will escape to the south, wight-ifying people to the point that they will become an army.

[The Merry Other]

I believe there's a similar thread already

[Azor Ahoy!]

The wights can't pass the Wall; Coldhands couldn't and the Others probably can't either.

That was the point of the Wall; it's a magic barrier against them as well as a physical one.

[Ahura Mazda]

AFAIK, WW could just build large catapults and throw their wights on the other side.. since they are already dead, assuming the magic that bounds them does not fade away, they will rise again and kill on the other side.. ..and every new death may signify a new wight to fight.

It is however my belief that the NW built their own doom thousands of years ago, when they carved new and more comfortable gates through the Wall, which was built with magic, to pass through it. This after forgetting the reason why magical gates were needed, for necessity or comfortability.

My guts suggest that the original gates at the wall were all like the Black Gate: magical, as magical as the wall is supposed to be. But normal doors, not carved in magical weirwood activated by the holy NW vow, can not prevent wights to come in through those tiny little holes.. Hence WW and wights will hit with fierce force at the door, and do what the wildlings have been unable to accomplish.. invading the realm.

[Ted Chang]

The wights can't pass the Wall; Coldhands couldn't and the Others probably can't either.

That was the point of the Wall; it's a magic barrier against them as well as a physical one.

Maybe the magic will break, or some horn might do some damage... you never know.

[The Fourth Head]

@ the merry other- where? I didn't spot it.

So does that mean Bowen Marsh was right?

By letting the wildlings through when they could have simply sealed the gates and left them to become white walkers and mill about on the other side of the wall, Jon's idealism and humanity has possibly brought about the ruin of the NW. By assuming all the Wildlings and NW men could put aside their grievances, they will probably, with his death, tear each-other apart. If they don't, they certainly will when they start killing each-other over the NW's food stores.

There seems to be a connection between the magic of the wall with the men who say the vows. It's a bit crack-pot but if the wall doesn't stay true- ie, the NW abandons their oaths, or are wiped out, the magic could fail which could be the main thing holding this wall of ice together. (ie giant cracks forming)

[Matoro]

The Wall doesen't stop wights, except physically. Remember those two wights in Castle Black? They were in teh southern side of the wall. I believe wights could climb wall (or go around it, dead things in the water) if the Watch wouldn't defend it. The Others, in other hand, can't, because of magic. The wall is as much magical barrier as it is physical. But I believe the magic will go down with the Wall and/or the Watch.

Now when I start to think... The Others haven't assaulted the Wall ever, have they? They just chill behind it and gather wights. All large attacks to the wall have been done by Wildlings. The Others need Horn of Joramun or something like that to get south.

[The Merry Other]

@The 4th Head

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99146-are-we-100-sure-that-the-wights-can/

Yep, his thread was about wights crossing the Wall and yours is about WW, but still they are similar. Sorry to be such a killjoy

[The Fourth Head]

snip...I believe wights could climb wall...snip

But honestly, how? With pick axes and toothed shoes?

[Kienn]

@The 4th Head

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99146-are-we-100-sure-that-the-wights-can/

Yep, his thread was about wights crossing the Wall and yours is about WW, but still they are similar. Sorry to be such a killjoy

He's actually just calling wights "wight walkers", so it's exactly the same topic.

[The Fourth Head]

Ok- missed that thread, but it seems to have dried up.

Addressing some of the issues raised, BM indicated that resealing the tunnels would take months to burrow through- they would effectively pose the same difficulty as burrowing through other sections of the wall. It's true they may represent "holes" in the magic of the wall, but with concentrated flame-based defences at each gate with men on shifts, do the WW's have enough man power to sustain a month/year-long uninterrupted tunnelling operation under flame attack?

It seems possible, and could underline the relevance of manning each of the castles on the wall, but I'm not assuming it would work by any means. even if they could, wouldn't the watch shoot them one by one with flame arrows as they emerged? Or light a massive flame pit on the other side, sit back, and enjoy the show?

As for Merry Other's suggestion that they commandeer the ships, I can't see Ice-faries hoisting anchor and manning the tiller. I think waiting for the sea to freeze before dancing across the ice seems most likely, but most of all, I still think that the wall represents a "magical" line- across land, gorge and sea. The WW's lost consciousness before being reaimated south of the wall, which is why I can't see the WW's passing through/over/around whilst the watch stays true, (and honours the pact perhaps?) without a NW, I think the Others will dance around the wall on a frozen sea, and the WW's will probably wade through underneath the ice.

[Borsabil]

Reading Bran, ADWD, one line struck me- hard.

"Meera led the way back up the hill, jabbing at the wights when they came near. The things could not be hurt, but they were slow and clumsy"

Are we to assume then that these slow clumsy zombies will organise themselves into teams with ropes, fit bone toothed footwear to their feet, and use hammers and spikes to achieve a day-long climb up a wall that only the most skillful and agile of the wildlings could achieve, before then unwinding cunningly woven wight walker rope ladders to lower down to enable more of them to make the climb faster?

Isn't it far more likely that they will reach the bottom of the wall and start pawing and groping at the ice, en masse, hoping for the wall to give way?

These are rotting corpses, many dismembered by wild animals, men, or Others, many being frail dead women, dead children. They have major physical limitations.

Furthermore, they have major mental limitations. They seem incapable of speech, and as Meera observed, they move slowly and clumsily- which doesn't seem indicative of a lucid mind. Their minds seem composed of a few memories of the deceased, coupled with the shared conscience of someone or something warging many of them simultaneously an a way that doesn't grant them much in the way of intelligence and coordination.

My opinion is, Bowen Marsh was more right that we do him credit for when he suggested sealing the gates.

The threat isn't that the wall will be scaled en-masse, but that the attackers will channel their efforts into finding a way through the gates. Just as Mance's army of 100,000 wildlings did not consider scaling the wall en-masse as a realistic option, and just as the Weeper has not considered going round the wall through the gorge, (there must be a very good geographical reason for why the Wall ends there- ie, the gorge posing as much of an obstacle as the wall) why would a very similarly composed army of wight walkers, robbed of their intelligence/agility, pose any more of a threat?

I posit that the wight walkers attacking the wall is a phantom menace. Jon is assuming that the wight walkers can scale the wall when I think it is highly dubious. I think the Wight Walkers' true threat is through the fear they engender in others, and the divisions the cause in the defenders agreeing how best to deal with the threat. They forced wildlings to unite under Val's sisters Husband, and attack the wall en-masse, and encouraged a LC to let ancient enemies through to eventually kill the NW. Furthermore, if they are a creation of Vals, and she is a norse priestess capable of wielding ice magic for her own people's ends, then she has effectively played Jon for a fool by appealing to his humanity to allow the wildlings through the wall to invade the 7 kingdoms.

I love Jon, but it wouldn't be the first time a Stark's humanity has backfired.

Clearly the wall acts as a magical barrier to the Others, or else we would have zombies rising from the dead south of it, which hasn't happened. It's not enough that the Others can get a few thousands zombies past the wall, it's that they have to break the walls magic so that they can unleash the full zombie apocalypse onto Westeros, which from intimations from GRRM is what's going to happen. Once the magical barrier is down the Others can operate in the south, they can raise millions of dead people to attack the living. People need to stop thinking of the Others like an invading army, because they're really not, they're magical creatures.

[The Fourth Head]

Clearly the wall acts as a magical barrier to the Others, or else we would have zombies rising from the dead south of it, which hasn't happened. It's not enough that the Others can get a few thousands zombies past the wall, it's that they have to break the walls magic so that they can unleash the full zombie apocalypse onto Westeros, which from intimations from GRRM is what's going to happen. Once the magical barrier is down the Others can operate in the south, they can raise millions of dead people to attack the living. People need to stop thinking of the Others like an invading army, because they're really not, they're magical creatures.

In fairness, two WW's reanimated south of the wall after being carried through the wall by the watch. Is it entry by invite only like a vampire at the door?

But yes, in essence I agree. There will almost certainly be a magical element that allows the Others through, which suggests Marsh may not have been far wrong in prioritising food supplies/stability south of the wall first and foremost.

Another thought- if the watch digging gates a few thousand years ago without the consent of Brandon the Builder formed 19 magical loopholes, why is it that no WW has been able to pass through the Black Gate without doing so unconsciously?

[yahya stark]

you do realize that the Weights and the White Walkers are two different things right the Weights are the dead ones that are slow and clumsy the white walkers seem to control the weights or at least reanimate them and they are far from slow and clumsy read the beginning of agot again those are the true threat

[Borsabil]

In fairness, two WW's reanimated south of the wall after being carried through the wall by the watch. Is it entry by invite only like a vampire at the door?

But yes, in essence I agree. There will almost certainly be a magical element that allows the Others through, which suggests Marsh may not have been far wrong in prioritising food supplies/stability south of the wall first and foremost.

Another thought- if the watch digging gates a few thousand years ago without the consent of Brandon the Builder formed 19 magical loopholes, why is it that no WW has been able to pass through the Black Gate without doing so unconsciously?

Yes totally agree. I love these debates, "how will the white walkers get their army of wights over/under/around the wall so they can invade Westeros? Please discuss". How's about they break the magic of the wall, have a few WWs go south and raise millions of undead from scratch? We all think that'd work? :)

Clearly GRRM is going to have the Others get past the wall somehow, I think that's a given TBH. Will there be a big set piece battle at the wall? I somehow doubt it.

[aceluby]

But honestly, how? With pick axes and toothed shoes?

World War Z style!

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Long walls tend to fail for being sharply undermanned, or having weak flanks..

The Others have been planning and preparing this invasion for 8k years, i´m sure they thought about that huge thing that separates them from the realms of men.. They must have a way of crossing:

1) From above, climbing. Jon´s dream?

2) From below, tunneling. Gorne´s way?

3) Through the wall. This force them to destroy the magical protections embedded in the structure. Horn? In which case the gates are the weakest parts of the wall. But the Others could try making their own Gates..That is a hole in the wall.

4) Or flanking it. The worse winter in recorded history is coming. Perhaps the shores will freeze, allowing the zombie army to walk over the ice.

Jon is not wrong. The gates are a liability, only against the Wildlings, most likely. But in his war against the Others, he must have eyes beyond the wall. And for that he needs the gates to send rangers.

Of course it would be better to have a score of skinchangers that can warg into birds, than to send rangers out.