BaleTheGuard Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I noticed that the last thread got locked for length, so I decided to make a new one to continue the conversation. I generally stick in the camp that says he's a Blackfyre, though I'll admit that either side is plausible. It's even possible, in my mind, that he's neither a Targaryen nor a Blackfyre descendent, just some random kid with vaguely Valyrian features. By the way, I know that everyone often cites the passage that says the Blackfyres are extinct through the male line...but where does that information actually come from? Westerosi lords who fought on the winning side in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and therefore have a vested interest in that being the (very convenient) truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Question: Do we know how Miles Toyne died? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaleTheGuard Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 Question: Do we know how Miles Toyne died? Not to my knowledge, though I have a pet theory that he might've been murdered. Also, have we really gotten to the point where considering Aegon as a true Targaryen is actually crackpot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 By the way, I know that everyone often cites the passage that says the Blackfyres are extinct through the male line...but where does that information actually come from? Westerosi lords who fought on the winning side in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and therefore have a vested interest in that being the (very convenient) truth? Illyrio Mopatis says it to Tyrion during their trip to Gohan Drohe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Not to my knowledge, though I have a pet theory that he might've been murdered. I've had the same idea. I wonder if Aegon was presented to Miles Toyne as a Blackfyre to gain the Golden Company's support. Miles was killed after the contract was signed so that Aegon could be paraded around the realm as a Targayen. In actuality, Aegon is neither Blackfyre nor Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Not to my knowledge, though I have a pet theory that he might've been murdered. Also, have we really gotten to the point where considering Aegon as a true Targaryen is actually crackpot? "crackpot" itself has actually morphed into a term to use whenever you disagree with the theory presented, even if it has evidence. It used to be for theories that had literally no evidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerys Ahai Reborn Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 "crackpot" itself has actually morphed into a term to use whenever you disagree with the theory presented, even if it has evidence. It used to be for theories that had literally no evidence...I'd say crackpot just means the theory has so many cracks it holds no water.And there are a lot of cracks in Aegon being real, so many that many would say the theory holds no water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'd say crackpot just means the theory has so many cracks it holds no water.And there are a lot of cracks in Aegon being real, so many that many would say the theory holds no water.I don't think there are that many cracks in the Aegon is real theory. About the same amount as the Aegon is a Blackfyre through Varys/Serra/Illyrio theories, perhaps even less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatever Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I generally stick in the camp that says he's a Blackfyre, though I'll admit that either side is plausible. It's even possible, in my mind, that he's neither a Targaryen nor a Blackfyre descendent, just some random kid with vaguely Valyrian features. I thought the same on my first read -- the Illyrio's son by Serra theory is IMO so evident that I called it halfway through the books but (since I hadn't even read The Mystery Knight yet) the Blackfyre bit didn't even cross my mind. I just thought it was old Illyrio giving his son a throne and Varys getting along with it for the lulz factor in screwing over an entire country. I actually used to think the BF theories were to needlessly complicated. I don't know what changed now -- it just seems more GRRM-esque to me that he'd use the Chekhov's Gun sooner or later -- but I won't be surprised if he's no Blackfyre, if we ever find out before he dies. The only think I'm certain about is that Aegriff is definitely not Rhaegar's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaleTheGuard Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 I thought the same on my first read -- the Illyrio's son by Serra theory is IMO so evident that I called it halfway through the books but (since I hadn't even read The Mystery Knight yet) the Blackfyre bit didn't even cross my mind. I just thought it was old Illyrio giving his son a throne and Varys getting along with it for the lulz factor in screwing over an entire country. I actually used to think the BF theories were to needlessly complicated. I don't know what changed now -- it just seems more GRRM-esque to me that he'd use the Chekhov's Gun sooner or later -- but I won't be surprised if he's no Blackfyre, if we ever find out before he dies. The only think I'm certain about is that Aegriff is definitely not Rhaegar's son. Yeah, even the casual reader (one who doesn't log on to these forums, ever) might pick up on the Blackfyre Conspiracy, given the fact that Daemon's rebellion is mentioned quite a lot over the course of the five books so far. I was always curious as to why it was even brought up in the main series, before FAegon appeared. Then I understood :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerys Ahai Reborn Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't think there are that many cracks in the Aegon is real theory. About the same amount as the Aegon is a Blackfyre through Varys/Serra/Illyrio theories, perhaps even less. I would say there really are not any cracks/holes in the Blackfyre theory - just a lack of evidence. But there still is enough evidence and hints that if Aegon is fake, then it seems the most likely alternative/explanation. And I guess yeah, maybe there are not many cracks in the Aegon is real theory, but there are some pretty damning ones. I haven't read the other two threads, but I'm sure they point them all out - the biggest, how Varys could not have known that the supposed swapped baby would be brutally killed (and how then Varys would have needed to get a baby with purple eyes - a baby he supposedly paid for with Arbor Gold). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatever Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I would say there really are not any cracks/holes in the Blackfyre theory - just a lack of evidence. But there still is enough evidence and hints that if Aegon is fake, then it seems the most likely alternative/explanation. And I guess yeah, maybe there are not many cracks in the Aegon is real theory, but there are some pretty damning ones. I haven't read the other two threads, but I'm sure they point them all out - the biggest, how Varys could not have known that the supposed swapped baby would be brutally killed (and how then Varys would have needed to get a baby with purple eyes - a baby he supposedly paid for with Arbor Gold).I'm a firm believer that Aegon is fake, but these are no cracks at all1) Do you think Varys would have cared if some poor man's kid died? Methinks NO.2) Aegon was, what 1 year old? Tops. Any generic blonde-kid-blue-eyes would have worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'd say crackpot just means the theory has so many cracks it holds no water.And there are a lot of cracks in Aegon being real, so many that many would say the theory holds no water. Except Aegon being Real isn't a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatever Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Except Aegon being Real isn't a theory. Says who? As long as in-universe characters (ie, Kevan) aren't satisfied with beliveing that Aegriff is the real deal, I feel authorized to do the same. In the books we are explicitely told that Jon is Ned's bastard, and look what happens there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I would say there really are not any cracks/holes in the Blackfyre theory - just a lack of evidence. But there still is enough evidence and hints that if Aegon is fake, then it seems the most likely alternative/explanation. And I guess yeah, maybe there are not many cracks in the Aegon is real theory, but there are some pretty damning ones. I haven't read the other two threads, but I'm sure they point them all out - the biggest, how Varys could not have known that the supposed swapped baby would be brutally killed (and how then Varys would have needed to get a baby with purple eyes - a baby he supposedly paid for with Arbor Gold). Both and more were explained. Of course it isn't convenient for you so you leave those details out. And there are tons and tons of cracks in the Blackfyre theory. 1. Male Blackfyres are all dead. Get over it.2. There's no way of knowing that Illyrio or Serra are Blackfyres.3. There's not a single mention of Illyrio having a son. Says who? As long as in-universe characters (ie, Kevan) aren't satisfied with beliveing that Aegriff is the real deal, I feel authorized to do the same. In the books we are explicitely told that Jon is Ned's bastard, and look what happens there.... Jon is presented as Ned's Bastard, and he stays the Bastard until proven otherwise (in-universe). Young Griff is presented as Aegon VI, and he stays Aegon VI until proven otherwise (in-universe). By your logic Aegon is real because Kevan says "He might be [feigned]. Or not." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Jon is presented as Ned's Bastard, and he stays the Bastard until proven otherwise (in-universe). Young Griff is presented as Aegon VI, and he stays Aegon VI until proven otherwise (in-universe). By your logic Aegon is real because Kevan says "He might be [feigned]. Or not." By your logic Tormund's member is bigger than the Wall because Tormund "presents" it as such. Nothing is real, everything is a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 By your logic Tormund's member is bigger than the Wall because Tormund "presents" it as such. Nothing is real, everything is a theory. Refer to my signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Refer to my signature. Doesn't seem to address anything that I said... I made no claims about Aegon, simply your statement about what constitutes a theory. FAegon = Theory ®Aegon = Theory [blackfyre]Aegon = Theory Pisswater Dany = Theory One might end up being "most supported" by the end, but they're all still theories with support - none are "fact" unless GRRM says so explicitly IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Pisswater Dany = Theory I have certainly not seen that one before. Doesn't seem to address anything that I said... I made no claims about Aegon, simply your statement about what constitutes a theory. Ah crap i forgot i changed signatures. "In this world, nothing can be said to be certain except death and taxes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I would say there really are not any cracks/holes in the Blackfyre theory - just a lack of evidence. But there still is enough evidence and hints that if Aegon is fake, then it seems the most likely alternative/explanation. And I guess yeah, maybe there are not many cracks in the Aegon is real theory, but there are some pretty damning ones. I haven't read the other two threads, but I'm sure they point them all out - the biggest, how Varys could not have known that the supposed swapped baby would be brutally killed (and how then Varys would have needed to get a baby with purple eyes - a baby he supposedly paid for with Arbor Gold). He didn't know because it doesn't matter. But honestly, how is it easier to believe Varys and Illyrio had a Blackfyre baby on hand at the exact same time Rhaegar's son was killed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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