Aegon is Real Version 3.0

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And one of the things that really stands out for me is when Varys only calls him "Aegon" and doesn't name him "Aegon Targaryen". Kevan just assumes it's Aegon, son of Elia and Rhaegar. He never questions Varys, well can't he's in so much pain.

Agree. Varys said Aegon he didn't said Aegon who.

A mention is still primary source evidence, whilst Aegon being fake has only subtext interpretation to hold it up.

A mention from a man who feels guilty for *abandoning* didn't protected the man he loved and hadn't seen the baby for at least 6 years. How is that evidence?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

The male line is dead. Yes. Might there be a female line somewhere? Possible. But unless we actually see one appear, we cannot use it to argue. That the male line of Blackfyre died out, is no evidence for the Blackfyre theory.

Just because people are from Lys doesn't mean they are family. Varys was born in Lys. Serra worked in a whorehouse in Lys. Never is it stated she was born there. Doreah was also from a whorehouse in Lys. She also has blonde hair (like Serra). Is she related to them as well? No one claims it, but she's from Lys as well, and she has the same colour hair as Serra, so by that line of thinking you'd almost have to say yes.

I always found that very flimsy evidence, that being from Lys (Varys in his youth, Serra later on in life) would make Serra and Varys supposedly family in some versions of the theories. We know nothing of Varys' hair colour, or about the eye colour of either, or of their ages, but suddenly they would supposedly be related, just because at one point of their life they lived in Lys... Very strange..

1) Yes, it´s just a possibility. Implicit even, otherwise why not just say "the blackfyres are dead". The information comes from Illyrio which is also relevant. To Westeros, the Blackfyre threat is over.

2) no, it helps though. As readers we do have some need to close plots. There is of course some bias.

But it’s not just the Lys connection. You also have Serra´s hair, possible Targ link.

And that some important Pentos merchant lost a lot of political power by marrying her.

I

The fat man grew pensive. “Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself. Such a fearful, furtive thing, however, I knew I should get no joy from coupling with her. Instead I summoned a bedwarmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed.

“She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal,” Illyrio told him, not for the first time. “Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo.” When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.

Sounds exactly like what might have made Illyrio lose his wits by marrying a bedslave.

3) Varys and Serra is by far the weakest element in the theory. Of course there is plenty to speculate Varys as a brightflame,. But his links to Serra end after the Lys connection and the slave status.

Of course, we know almost nothing of Serra, therefore this is to be expected.

1) right. It suggests that there is a possibility that the female line survived (not that it still exists though). But it is no evidence.

2) The Blackfyre/Brightflame theorties (especially the Brightflame theories) have one problem: the females who survived in those theories would have stayed strong enough to actually pass on their heritage. According to those theories, they wouldn't have grown impovered or something like that. Should they have survived and gotten sons, it would have been most likely noticed by any Targaryens/loyalists, and the children would have been watches. As to the Brightflame descendants... how many bastards (from Lys, mind you) would know that their father was a Targaryen Prince, when half the population from the city you were born in looks like said prince?

1) well if said female line didn´t exist anymore, then there is no point in keeping the option open. And he should just say "the blackfyres are dead".. No, there is no bulletproff evidence of that line ever existing. Just enough to speculate with.

2) Aerion´s son wasn´t a bastard.. his grandson on the other hand (Varys lets asume) could be one.

Awesome answer, SuperTechmarine :D

Completely missed that.

Yes, he could have grown fond of the boy for sheltering him 12 years ago. Sure.

Still one has to wonder about the differential treatment the other Targ children got.

The oficial story just doesn´t offer any motivation for Illyrio. Varys could well be a Targaryen loyalist (even if half of his actions just doesn´t work).. But Illyrio? what is the debt of affection?

Is he in some kind of mid life crisis,? is he bored of making money and he wants to play the Game of thrones (even if no other magister or merchant of the free cities show the same interests)?

[Fae Boleyn]

And one of the things that really stands out for me is when Varys only calls him "Aegon" and doesn't name him "Aegon Targaryen". Kevan just assumes it's Aegon, son of Elia and Rhaegar. He never questions Varys, well can't he's in so much pain.

An assumption encouraged by Kevan saying he's dead and Varys saying no, he's alive. I've seen the argument that it's just wordplay, but why bother when talking to a dying man? Varys basically used that scene as a chance to chat to someone who could never divulge - why bother to fool him? There's no motive.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon could also simply be foreshadowing for the GC. The GC originally followed a Black Dragon, and his supporters. But the Black Dragons have all died. All that is left is a Red Dragon. And Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon.

If it can't be a Black dragon taking them home, then a Red dragon. It's the only chance they have.

So who is the black dragon red with rust? Or was that whole Clanking Dragon tale just page filler?

[sleath56]

Agree. Varys said Aegon he didn't said Aegon who.

A mention from a man who feels guilty for *abandoning* didn't protected the man he loved and hadn't seen the baby for at least 6 years. How is that evidence?

Compared to no real mention of the same standard backing up that Aegon is fake? A Mention > Theory.

At least the idea that Aegon is real has been acknowledged in-story compared to the fan-conducted subtext interpretation for Aegon is fake.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

The usual theory runs that Serra and Varys are the Blackfyres, is what I'm referring to. I thought you were the one who said something about Serra, Eleana, and something about hair as a parallel to suggest she was a Blackfyre? I may have misread that post, the phrasing didn't make sense to me.

Anyway. Serra could actually be anyone - we only have Illyrio's word she was a bed slave. It could be true or a cover, perhaps to hide a union deliberately uniting two lines? She could definitely be the Brightflame half; my original point was with what we actually know either of them could belong to either. Same for Varys but I'm focusing on the marriage that may have produced Blue Aegon. Though if Serra is his sister, more chance she's not what Illyrio said and that's a cover, imo.

agreed.

yes it was me who pointed out Serra/Elaena as the only advantage of the traditional (f)Aegon theory.

Still i find it as a weak link. If Daena was the Targ with that kind of hair, then fine, since she is the mother of Daemon Blackfyre.

[Fae Boleyn]

Compared to no real mention of the same standard backing up that Aegon is fake? A Mention > Theory.

At least the idea that Aegon is real has been acknowledged in-story compared to the fan-conducted subtext interpretation for Aegon is fake.

To be fair, some people suspect his being real - Tyrell and Tarly, though they're so insistent it's kinda fishy. Kevan also says in council he might be fake, and there's one more but it's from a preview chapter and I can't spoiler tag from my phone.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Compared to no real mention of the same standard backing up that Aegon is fake? A Mention > Theory.

At least the idea that Aegon is real has been acknowledged in-story compared to the fan-conducted subtext interpretation for Aegon is fake.

The point is who mentioned it? Everyone mention that Jon is Ned's is he?

The idea of FAegon been real had been acknowledged from one person who couldn't know if that is right or wrong.

[RoamingRonin]

And one of the things that really stands out for me is when Varys only calls him "Aegon" and doesn't name him "Aegon Targaryen". Kevan just assumes it's Aegon, son of Elia and Rhaegar. He never questions Varys, well can't he's in so much pain.

He doesn't question Varys but Kevan does insist Aegon is dead.

So who is the black dragon red with rust? Or was that whole Clanking Dragon tale just page filler?

It could also pertain to the Golden Company or it could just be world building.

[King of Winters]

An assumption encouraged by Kevan saying he's dead and Varys saying no, he's alive. I've seen the argument that it's just wordplay, but why bother when talking to a dying man? Varys basically used that scene as a chance to chat to someone who could never divulge - why bother to fool him? There's no motive.

"Aegon?" For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. "Dead. He's dead."

"No". The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here."

Varys doesn't say "he's alive", he says "he is here", it's a play on words still. Varys doesn't say that Aegon isn't dead, or he escaped, all he says he's here and ready to rule.

[Lost Melnibonean]

It could also pertain to the Golden Company or it could just be world building.

Fair enough.

[sleath56]

The point is who mentioned it? Everyone mention that Jon is Ned's is he?

The idea of FAegon been real had been acknowledged from one person who couldn't know if that is right or wrong.

R+L=J is a theory. It may be a flawless theory but a theory nonetheless.

Aegon being fake is a theory. It has valid points that can be interpreted to claim Aegon is fake, I give it that.

However: Aegon being real has real proof in the book, rrgardless of who has said so. This means GRRM has acknowledged this idea.

[sleath56]

The point is who mentioned it? Everyone mention that Jon is Ned's is he?

The idea of FAegon been real had been acknowledged from one person who couldn't know if that is right or wrong.

R+L=J is a theory. It may be a flawless theory but a theory nonetheless.

Aegon being fake is a theory. It has valid points that can be interpreted to claim Aegon is fake, I give it that but it is still also a theory.

However: Aegon being real has real proof in the book, rrgardless of who has said so. This means GRRM has acknowledged this idea.

[Fae Boleyn]

Varys doesn't say "he's alive", he says "he is here", it's a play on words still. Varys doesn't say that Aegon isn't dead, or he escaped, all he says he's here and ready to rule.

Yes, I've already acknowledged the "it's wordplay" argument in the very post you quoted from me. I've heard it. Give me one good reason to bother with a dying man, then you've countered me effectively.

Edit: in before you tell me I misquoted Varys, sorry, I don't have the text on the bus with me.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

R+L=J is a theory. It may be a flawless theory but a theory nonetheless.

Aegon being fake is a theory. It has valid points that can be interpreted to claim Aegon is fake, I give it that but it is still also a theory.

However: Aegon being real has real proof in the book, rrgardless of who has said so. This means GRRM has acknowledged this idea.

I will ask you again how JonCon can be sure that FAegon is real?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

R+L=J is a theory. It may be a flawless theory but a theory nonetheless.

Aegon being fake is a theory. It has valid points that can be interpreted to claim Aegon is fake, I give it that.

However: Aegon being real has real proof in the book, rrgardless of who has said so. This means GRRM has acknowledged this idea.

I would say that Aegon being real is a theory.

I will ask you again how JonCon can be sure that FAegon is real?

At first I thought JonCon was blinded by his love for Rhaegar, but now I suspect JC knows fAegon is Blackfyre.

[PrimeRhaegar]

And one of the things that really stands out for me is when Varys only calls him "Aegon" and doesn't name him "Aegon Targaryen". Kevan just assumes it's Aegon, son of Elia and Rhaegar. He never questions Varys, well can't he's in so much pain.

isn't that nitpicking man i mean does every one need to mention a character by full name to know who they are really talking about?

[King of Winters]

Yes, I've already acknowledged the "it's wordplay" argument in the very post you quoted from me. I've heard it. Give me one good reason to bother with a dying man, then you've countered me effectively.

Edit: in before you tell me I misquoted Varys, sorry, I don't have the text on the bus with me.

Varys probably thinks that Kevan deserves to know why he is killing him, so Varys tells him of the plan to get the Lannisters and Tyrells against each other and then for Aegon to come into the picture and unite the Lords. Kevan questions Varys and Varys tells him that Aegon has been raised to be a good King. He doesn't lie to him, he tells him the truth as he's dying. The only thing he's not clear on is which Aegon.

There's the Aegon Varys is thinking of, the right one, and the one Kevan is thinking of.

[King of Winters]

isn't that nitpicking man i mean does every one need to mention a character by full name to know who they are really talking about?

But that's the point though. Varys saying just "Aegon" is what makes it so suspicious. Varys could have told him that Aegon is a Blackfyre, or lied to him and been spiteful, or he could have left it too Kevan to decide what he thinks.

[Ser Creighton]

I have certainly not seen that one before.

Ah crap i forgot i changed signatures.

"In this world, nothing can be said to be certain except death and taxes."

That's actually philosophical not fact. Only the end is certain. It's actually just a snarky remark about taxes.

People can think whatever they want but a theory requires facts, evidence and support. Applying supposition, making unexplained leaps, or observations based on desire, want, opinion, are not theoretical. Most of the time the so called theories on the board are just a hypothesis based off some sort of observation. Nothing wrong with that either, it's just on occasion some take a hypothesis for fact or a theory for fact. If it can't be proven it's not a fact. Because this based off art, and art is based off opinion people sometimes think that well that makes opinion fact. They are books written by one person and he has the last say on what is fact and what is not in his books. Fact the title of the series is A song of Ice and Fire. That is not open for a subjective opinion that is the name of the series. The meaning of course is open for debate.

Fact, Aegon is a character in the series. Supposition, Aegon is a Targaryen. Why is that supposition? Because Martin left it open ended. Enough evidence exists to question the validity of Aegons heritage. Fact, the name young Griff is currently using is Aegon Targayen. Fact, the book is written in a 3rd person unreliable POV allowing readers to explore alternatives. Fact many characters in the series have used Pseudonym's, including Young Griff.