The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 4! (FFC-DwD)

[Bran Vras]

@Paper Waver

Several things came to my mind as I was reading your post. Most of them are off topic unfortunately.

You are right that the term warg can designate the man or the beast. It was said that Robb Stark had an army of wargs, presumably creatures on four legs. Which is more common is unclear to me. Rattleshirt informs the Weeper that Jon is a warg. Tormund justifies his sympathy for Jon by his general sympathy for wargs. Ygritte herself proclaims that she is not afraid of wargs. (So Varamyr was unlucky in the sentiments he inspired.) So being a warg is part of what has made Jon accepted beyond the Wall. Conversely, having found a culture accepting of his warg nature has contributed to make Jon favourably disposed towards the free folk.

(Remarks off topic. About Jojen. It’s interesting that the only place in the Seven Kingdoms without a maester is the place where the secrets of the old gods are remembered. About woods witches, it’s not clear to me whether they pass their knowledge from one to the other, or if each one of them is an island. In the former case, all woods witches of Westeros can perhaps be traced back to the Age of Heroes, before the Wall. Why they are all women is a mystery. But the connection with the crannogmen might be interesting to follow. Indeed, Mother Mole seems to have green dreams like Jojen.)

@Ibbison@bemused

I can agree with this.

Thorne came to him with the complaint, and it's unlikely that Stannis bothered to look into it further, since it was a NW internal matter. I would suggest reading the Stannis line as "I can’t say he doesn’t have a grievance" ... "because I haven't bothered to investigate Thorne's complaint yet, and have no intention to."

Except that Stannis wouldn't mention it if it was utterly devoid of significance.

About the count, the material circumstances (confinement in the room) and the telling of the story could suggest what you say. But it is not said that the usual procedure wasn’t followed. I read Jon’s description as his understanding of the result, not actually as something he saw. We could debate on the merit of a private count, but departure from established custom is a motive for contestation. Beyond that, I don’t see why Ser Alliser would make an absurd charge. Finally, Slynt repeats (or alludes to) Thorne’s accusation in front of witnesses in Jon II ("blind fools that cast their stone for you"). So it’s not just a question of something that Thorne has told Stannis. It’s the discourse that Thorne and Slynt serve to whoever is willing to listen.

[bemused]

Paper Waver.... I'm more inclined to think that what makes the difference between the number of skinchangers north of the wall vs. south of the wall is that in the north, there are more people with the blood of the first men as opposed to that of the Andals.

If dogs are the easiest creatures to bond with , I don't think north or south would make much difference .

Generally , I think we're really on the same page in regard to "in the blood".. something that appears now and then, but not something that's unfailingly predominant , like black hair and blue eyes in Robert's offspring. Haggon seems to imply that the skinchanger normally has some choice in what creature he wants to try to bond with ...with the wolf bond being for life ... But we don't know if, for example, Borroq's abilities were only awakened by his boar , or if they might possibly have been awakened by another animal..

I think there's a separate, magic-driven scenario happening in the Stark line .. That five skinchangers should manifest in one generation has to be unusual in the extreme and as I said , it wasn't until the direwolf pups appeared, that any of them showed any sign of skinchanging , though Robb and Jon were practically mature by Westerosi standards.

It would be interesting to know how many of the Kings of Winter were actually wargs. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the ones born shortly before a long winter approached, definitely were... Did the awareness of it pass out of Stark ken only after the conquest, or had it already faded to legend by then ? I'll be waiting to see.

I think Jon's hand flexing is interesting from any perspective.. even when it isn't mentioned . Because he says it had become habit , he does it without thinking , so he may have done it even when it's not mentioned (especially in his own POVs) ;)

[bemused]

( I was uncertain whether to edit , in case this got buried...)

Bran ... I take your point about Slynt's "blind fools", etc. .. I didn't mean that it would never be repeated , just that it wouldn't likely find much purchase ( IMO )...and it's far from the familiar ones we hear most often . They can serve up their discourse , but it's by no means sure that very many will try a nibble.... I'll have plenty to say about Slynt and Thorne as we proceed..in fact , I can hardly wait to say it..I can only hope it's not more than anyone wants to hear.

But I can say something , at least , by going back... Since Slynt appeared at the wall ..yes ,we've seen his pompousness ... but all along , we've also seen Thorne feeding him cues and talking points which Slynt obligingly parrots forward.

We also have Sam's reassurance to Jon that everyone knows the sort of man Thorne is . Going back to being judged by the company you keep ... Just as Stannis may judge Thorne by his closeness to Slynt, I think the men of the Watch will certainly judge Slynt by his cosiness with Thorne.... ( And Stannis actually mentions Thorne and Slynt's complaints together in the same breath. Which I think is a clue. )

Alliser does make outlandish charges , all the time... ( I don't think "absurd" is quite the right word for it ). When he flings (*ahem*) manure , it's not just a handful at a time , it's a bucketful , in the hope that at least some of it will find a target ( see his and Slynt's interrogation of Jon). By this stage in the story, it's clear that he's driven by some determined motivation , personal,or otherwise. (This remains obscure.).. So precisely why he does or says a thing isn't always apparent....but his pattern is.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

As far as Thorne's complaints about Jon, we should also keep in mind that the everyday men at the watch know the two basically hate each other as early as Game

[Ragnorak]

I'll post Sam I in a little later today. I have a couple thoughts on the discussions as I think back on earlier chapters.

The prologue has Varamyr remembering dying inside the eagle from Mel's fire as Varamyr wakes up to realize his own fire has gone out. Fire as life, fire as death. This idea came up in Jon's trip to scout the pass where the Halfhand forbid fires. It also comes up elsewhere like in Dany when MMD says there's great healing power in fire. Any thoughts on the duality of fire theme? I imagine with Mel at the Wall we'll have opportunity to revisit the topic.

Varamyr's recollections give added emphasis to the talk of the horrors of being burned alive. Sam's chapters come in the previous book prior to the prologue. The choice to send Aemon comes without this horrific recollection. We learn of Jon's choice with Gilly before the fire burning details but get those details before we see Jon enact that choice. This is a great example of Martin's use of POV structure and trickled revelations to toy with the reader's emotional responses. We learn of things and react and later we see those things or their impact to challenge our initial reaction. Mixed with this are parallel circumstances or charged passages to prime us. The way the story Arya overhears about Gregor raping the innkeeper's daughter and the way it tracks with Tyrion/Tysha is another example of this technique. Varamyr's burning eagle recollections are a perfect example of this. The burning also applies to Asha's POV and Theon's opening Reek chapter establishes the same dynamic for all the flaying threats we see. So Jon's comment to Stannis about flaying here has relatively little weight, but once we've had Theon's POV it takes on a new dimension.

Much of the talk has focused on warging and the supernatural implications of the information in the prologue (which is understandable and wholly appropriate.) Is there anything else in the prologue that is meant to prep or tweak us for the upcoming story? Obviously the Thistle experience is meant to cause apprehension for Bran and Hodor, but anything else for Jon (or Sam) in there?

The finger flexing of the sword hand occurs regularly throughout Dance so I thought we should keep in mind its origin and evolution. Here are the passages.

“Healing.” Jon flexed his bandaged fingers to show him. He had burned himself more badly than he knew throwing the flaming drapes, and his right hand was swathed in silk halfway to the elbow. At the time he’d felt nothing; the agony had come after. His cracked red skin oozed fluid, and fearsome blood blisters rose between his fingers, big as roaches. “The maester says I’ll have scars, but otherwise the hand should be as good as it was before.”
“A scarred hand is nothing. On the Wall, you’ll be wearing gloves often as not.”
“As you say, my lord.” It was not the thought of scars that troubled Jon; it was the rest of it. Maester Aemon had given him milk of the poppy, yet even so, the pain had been hideous. At first it had felt as if his hand were still aflame, burning day and night. Only plunging it into basins of snow and shaved ice gave any relief at all. Jon thanked the gods that no one but Ghost saw him writhing on his bed, whimpering from the pain. And when at last he did sleep, he dreamt, and that was even worse. In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father’s face, but he dared not tell Mormont that.

He mounted, the reins in his hand, and wheeled the horse around to face the night. Samwell Tarly stood in the stable door, a full moon peering over his shoulder. He threw a giant’s shadow, immense and black. “Get out of my way, Sam.”

Jon raised the hood of his heavy cloak and gave the horse her head. Castle Black was silent and still as he rode out, with Ghost racing at his side. Men watched from the Wall behind him, he knew, but their eyes were turned north, not south. No one would see him go, no one but Sam Tarly, struggling back to his feet in the dust of the old stables. He hoped Sam hadn’t hurt himself, falling like that. He was so heavy and so ungainly, it would be just like him to break a wrist or twist his ankle getting out of the way. “I warned him,” Jon said aloud. “It was nothing to do with him, anyway.” He flexed his burned hand as he rode, opening and closing the scarred fingers. They still pained him, but it felt good to have the wrappings off.
Moonlight silvered the hills as he followed the twisting ribbon of the kingsroad. He needed to get as far from the Wall as he could before they realized he was gone.

ACoK
As he rode, Jon peeled off his glove to air his burned fingers. Ugly things. He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again. He began to flex his hand, opening and closing the fingers. If he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy, it well might be the end of him, he knew. A man needed his sword beyond the Wall.

Lots of stuff here. There is moon imagery surrounding his ride south and Sam back in GoT. Something to ponder when considering the moon in his Ghost dream this chapter. Jon had been burned alive if only his hand. We should keep that in mind as we consider his thoughts about only monsters giving babies to the flame (not that one ought to need to have been burned to be able to recognize the moral problems inherent in burning babies alive.)

The flexing fingers starts as a healing gesture born of a wound from the duality of fire. The notion of the unimpaired functionality of a scarred hand has metaphor potential. Mormont gives Jon Longclaw as a reward immediately after he flexes his hand for healing purposes. The sword is immersed in fatherhood symbolism and meaning. Flexing his hand to wield the sword thus becomes a gesture of trying to live up to his father. His dream of his father's face burning plays into this as well. He flexes while riding as he is filled with conflict-- was Aemon an icon of honor or a coward? Regret over running Sam down. Tyrion's words about truth, will Robb accept of reject him? Flexing his hands is established as a certain inner conflict early on. He also flexes his hands when he thinks of never being able to muss Arya's hair again. Fatherhood, family, inner conflict, consequences of decisions-- this is a gesture steeped in meaning well beyond the anticipation of conflict that its surface level use in Dance conveys. The initial meeting with Stannis probably touches on almost all these themes for Jon.

[Ragnorak]

Sam I (AFFC)

Summary

Sam is reading in the vaults below Castle Black as he realizes he has been up all night. He realizes Jon must be wondering where he is and reflects on his concerns at leaving Aemon alone so gathers the books he's found and makes his way upstairs. He encounters Edd who tells him Jon is looking for him and, after a brief delay from Pyp and Grenn expressing their disappointment in feeling abandoned by Jon the new LC as a friend, he makes his way to Jon's solar in the armory.

Sam literally bumps into Gilly leaving her meeting with Jon and senses something is wrong. He reviews his research findings with Jon, gives Jon his recommendation on his "paper shield" to King Tommen, and is told that Jon is sending him to Oldtown to become a maester along with Aemon, Gilly, and "Gilly's baby." Sam's pleas at his trauma at Randyl's hands for having once requested to become a maester fall on deaf ears with Jon. Later he gets a more sympathetically deaf ear from Aemon too. The next morning he meets Jon in the lichyard as instructed and sets off with Aemon and Gilly.

Observations

Thicker Gloves?

From Jon I (DwD)

Two queen’s men stood shivering on the steps, their hands tucked up into their armpits and their spears leaning against the door. “Those cloth gloves will never serve,” Jon told them. “See Bowen Marsh on the morrow, and he’ll give you each a pair of leather gloves lined with fur.”
“We will, m’lord, and thank you,” said the older guard.
“That’s if our bloody hands aren’t froze off,” the younger added, his breath a pale mist. “I used to think that it got cold up in the Dornish Marches. What did I know?”
Nothing, thought Jon Snow, the same as me.

This takes place just before Jon's exchange with Sam that we see in both overlapping chapters Sam I (AFFC) and Jon II (DwD)

“Close the door, Sam.” Faint scars still marked Jon’s cheek, where an eagle had once tried to rip his eye out. “Did that wretch break the skin?”
Sam eased the books down and peeled off his glove. “He did.” He felt faint. “I’m bleeding.”
“We all shed our blood for the Watch. Wear thicker gloves.”

Jon is clearly getting "thicker skin" with his kill the boy lesson but there also seems to be a bit of a pattern of him "thickening the skin" of those around him.

We'll see it more clearly in his own thoughts in Jon II (DwD)

Kill the boy, Jon thought. The boy in you, and the one in him. Kill the both of them, you bloody bastard.

Bran Vras saw the gift of gloves as potential evidence or fuel for a disparity of treatment sentiment in the Watch. I was torn between connecting it to Sam's raven bite or Benjen's bear cloak gift to Tyrion. Any other thoughts or ways to tie in the gloves? We also have Jon's initial hand wound and the wearing of gloves tied to that. None of these are mutually exclusive interpretations.

Archery Lessons-- Jon and Blood Raven parallels?

Among many other things Bloodraven was noted for his skill in archery. He commanded a unit of bowmen called the Raven's Teeth. Sam notes that Jon has instituted mandatory archery training for the whole of the Watch and Sam also feels to bite of a raven's tooth that matches the blister wound he's gotten from archery practice. Both Jon and Bloodraven are bastards, both arguably legitimized, both of half Targ and half First Men descent, both have ties to old gods magic, Jon's connection to Ghost with his coloring mirrors Bloodraven's connection to the weirwoods, both Lords Commander of the Watch, both act to protect the claims of family while not seeking office themselves, and if Aegon is a Blackfyre those parallels may well expand or get inverted.

What do we make of this especially in light of Bran being the one who is being obviously connected to Bloodraven? TPatQ opens up speculation about dragon slaying. Arrows are one idea that comes up (one Tyrion mentions in Dance as well iirc.) Bloodraven and his Raven's Teeth ended the first Blackfyre rebellion by slaying a "dragon" with an arrow leading to charges of kinslaying. We also have Sam bringing this up in light of Ulmer's stories and the idea of Sam the Chronicler is first overtly introduced with Ulmer's stories that Jon suggests Sam write down.

Ulmer was the premier archer of our first Robin Hood band that has been reborn in the Brotherhood without Banners. Following that line of speculation takes us pretty far afield of Jon but Ulmer seems to have a prominent place and I can't help but wonder.

Three Finger Hobb-- A Sam and Ghost fan?

Hobb seems to like Sam

Her saddlebags bulged with cheese and sausages and hard-cooked eggs, and half a salted ham that Three-Finger Hobb had given him on his name day. “You’re a man who appreciates cooking, Slayer,” the cook had said. “We need more o’ your sort.”

Is he a fan of Ghost too? It seems they had roast ox for dinner.

Ghost was stretched out beneath the anvil, gnawing on the bone of an ox. The big white direwolf looked up at his approach. “Past time that you were back.” He returned to his chair, to read over Maester Aemon’s letter once again.

Ghost was stretched out beneath the anvil, gnawing on the bone of an ox to get at the marrow. The big white direwolf looked up when Sam went by, but made no sound.

“Most goats do,” called Pyp, as he and Grenn emerged from around the corner, with longbows in hand and quivers of arrows on their backs. “Where have you been, Slayer? We missed you last night at supper. A whole roast ox went uneaten.”

The "warg" accusation doesn't seem to matter to the cook.

Nicknames

Sam and Grenn had an enlightening conversation about nicknames back at Craster's Keep in Sam II (SoS) and we had a bit of discussion on that topic. That seems to be revisited a bit here.

“Where have you been, Slayer? We missed you last night at supper. A whole roast ox went uneaten.”
“Don’t call me Slayer.” Sam ignored the gibe about the ox.

“Where’s your longbow, Sam?” asked Grenn. Ser Alliser used to call him Aurochs, and every day he seemed to grow into the name a little more. He had come to the Wall big but slow, thick of neck, thick of waist, red of face, and clumsy. Though his neck still reddened when Pyp twisted him around into some folly, hours of work with sword and shield had flattened his belly, hardened his arms, broadened his chest. He was strong, and shaggy as an aurochs too.

Grenn calls him "Sam" and not "Slayer" which fits with Sam's expressing a desire to be called his name rather than nickname despite Grenn's admiration of the way Sam came by his Slayer nickname. Sam also uses their names rather than nicknames but he still thinks of Grenn as Aurochs in his head. Grenn expressed to Sam that he'd be proud to be called an aurochs by Sam since it is a noble beast and Sam's intentions would be complimentary. Against this backdrop we have Jon's Lord Snow nickname becoming a reality as well. Lord Snow has lost its bite for the likes of Thorne and Slynt since it I his legitimate title now. For others "Lord Snow" has been a respectful nickname for some time. It has long since lost its Thorne-y bitterness for Jon but has resumed a bit of that bitterness for those who endured its forging with Jon.

Martin's nicknames are so good and plentiful we've had a couple of "favorite" threads dedicated to them. Interesting to see him openly explore their significance with Sam and Grenn. Side note: Grenn is a candidate for possible Dunk descendants. Dunk often compared himself to an aurochs and has similar thoughts to Grenn about being "thick." I mention it (aside from a point of interest) because Dunk gave himself the name Ser Duncan the Tall rather than "earning" it and would eventually inspire his namesake's nickname Duncan the Small. Dunk is the nickname Ser Arlan gave him and seems to be a more private thing-- actually Egg's musing that Dunk is short for Duncan is when Dunk adopts that name. There may be some fertile ground for exploring nickname connections buried in there.

How is Sam Seen?

At the lichyard, a pair of two-wheeled wayns awaited him, along with Black Jack Bulwer and a dozen seasoned rangers, tough as the garrons they rode. Kedge Whiteye cursed loudly when his one good eye spied Sam. “Don’t mind him, Slayer,” said Black Jack. “He lost a wager, said we’d need to drag you out squealing from beneath some bed.”

Sam seems to have earned a good deal of respect. Jack Bulwer is who Jon names as First Ranger and he bets on Sam. The other eleven of the dozen rangers other than Kedge seem to have bet with Jack on Sam.

Kedge Whiteye had the Wall when Jon made his ascent. Kedge had seen forty-odd namedays, thirty of them on the Wall. His left eye was blind, his right eye mean. In the wild, alone with axe and garron, he was as good a ranger as any in the Watch, but he had never gotten on well with the other men.

His bad disposition and inability to get along with almost anybody further reinforces an overall picture of Sam having earned respect and his place among his brothers despite not appreciating that fact himself.

Books

Annals of the Black Centaur
Septon Jorquen’s exhaustively detailed account of the nine years that Orbert Caswell had served as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. There was a page for each day of his term, every one of which seemed to begin, “Lord Orbert rose at dawn and moved his bowels,” except for the last, which said, “Lord Orbert was found to have died during the night.”

Jade Compendium
Colloquo Votar’s Jade Compendium a thick volume of tales and legends from the east that Maester Aemon had commanded him to find.
It was written by the Volantene adventurer Colloquo Votar, who traveled to the east and visited all the lands of the Jade Sea. There is a passage you may find of interest.

Maester Thomax’s Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate. It had come open as it fell, and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored inks.

Sam also drops some really good speculation bombs here. Dragon eggs at the Wall? He's musing on Mel's plan to use King's Blood to wake a dragon and assumes there must be an egg somewhere, but it is a huge reader tease especially since that info doesn't clearly come until Jon I a book later. His questioning the multiple thousand year timeline is another as well as the great mystery of what is dragon steel? Most of the information he relays about the Others we've seen in some POV so it seems to be at least a mostly accurate knowledge dump at least on that topic.

Analysis

I think I noted back in Sam's first chapter that I was struck by the sense of Sam the Chronicler of this tale. Here we have Jon telling Sam that he should be the one to write the stories down. I suspect part of this is a bit of a Lord of the Rings nod to Samwise.

Knowledge

It would seem The North Remembers is a bit overgeneralized as Sam is sitting amidst a treasure of forgotten knowledge. North of the Wall remembers much more of what Sam is reading. Old Nan remembers a great deal too. If Roose Bolton is to be believed they probably chat about this forgotten knowledge in taverns on Skaagos, but the North, Winterfell, and the Watch have forgotten a great deal.

Sam's underground setting for this forgotten knowledge alludes to the knowledge stored in weirwoods that we'll learn about through Bran. His comment about the First Men having only runes and the histories being written by septons (and not maesters.. hmm) will also make the astute reader reflect back on this when we learn of the way weirwoods store knowledge. The occupants of Winterfell may have forgotten things amidst Rickard's southron ambitions, but the heart tree of Winterfell remembers which adds a destroying knowledge aspect to the Stannis offer or maybe a command for the North to forget.

The mouse offers potential as a symbol. Feast and Dance were originally going to be a single book and in Dance we learn Varys little birds were originally little mice crawling amongst the written word gnawing on secrets like Sam's little friend. I can't help thinking about Illyrio the cheesemonger. Running with the mouse as the predecessor to the little birds opens up a world of possibilities. There is the written word and that which can be overheard by "mice" compared with the other man's "little bird" that sits on Jon's shoulder seemingly reading his letter to Tommen. The underground imperfect knowledge that decays compared to the living knowledge stored in the roots of the trees.

Sam also considers trying to crush the "little mouse" with a book-- knowledge itself. What does this say about knowledge and power? The focus on Orbert Caswell moving his bowels made me think of Tywin and the role Varys played in his death. It would seem intimate knowledge of someone's daily activities is insufficient to kill the mouse. Perhaps it is that a Septon's knowledge is insufficient? The knowledge theme born in these vaults is echoed again at the end of the chapter.

A line of pale snot ran from Maester Aemon’s nose. He wiped it away with the back of his glove. “Knowledge is a weapon, Jon. Arm yourself well before you ride forth to battle.”

Knowledge as a weapon is somewhat different from knowledge as power unless of course one is attacking the ignorant. So much of our initial drama is set in motion by Varys and Littlefinger through the application of knowledge.

Jon was originally dismissive of Sam's early notion of books as treasures. Has he changed his values or does he now think of books as an armory of sorts?

Mouse vs. the Raven gives us a little Varys vs. Bloodraven metaphor. Books vs. weirwoods. Septons vs. old gods. A backdrop of First Men heroes being redefined as Andal knights amidst a store of forgotten knowledge vs. the North Remembers theme. Lots of angles to view Sam's trip to the library.

Secrets and the Lies we tell for Love and Honor

Jon and Sam both lie to each other and keep secrets from each other here. Jon lies about Gilly though I don't doubt he expects Sam to learn the truth from her or Aemon on their journey. He essentially confesses when he tells Sam

“The first time I saw Gilly,” he said, “she was pressed back against the wall of Craster’s Keep, this skinny dark-haired girl with her big belly, cringing away from Ghost. He had gotten in among her rabbits, and I think she was frightened that he would tear her open and devour the babe... but it was not the wolf she should have been afraid of, was it?”

Gilly kneels before Jon just as she did when she was first sent to him by Sam. Her plea was based on Stannis' reason for showing up at the Wall-- a king protects the people. Jon is protecting "people" specifically Dalla's son but there is a harsh price as Gilly is called upon to help in that protection. Here we see Jon protecting people from the King Stannis and later we will see Alys Karstark come and kneel before Jon as well seeking protection but unwilling to go to Stannis. Again we have the "true king" theme emerge.

Sam lies to Jon through omission about Bran living (and the whole undead giant elk riding guy killing an army of wights with a murder of ravens thing probably qualifies as "something useful about the enemy.") He lies through omission again, or at least tries, about his father and the trauma from the chains.

Both Sam and Jon hope these lies will be discovered. Jon has his little confession to Sam about Gilly and we can assume Sam hopes Jon will one day discover Bran lived. Jon the friend would likely be one Sam would openly tell the chain story to. It is very much like the tale of his arrival at the Wall back in GoT. We see how Jon as LC has changed and even Sam notes his "Lord's face."

Jon, he’d said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice.

[bemused]

The opening scene with the mouse shows us Sam struggling against the softer side of his nature ( trying to toughen up) and brings home the deplorable state of the library and NW records.... and ( on first read) seemingly , some entertaining colour and filler.

I want to be good about not discussing speculations too far ahead , but I think the following are two red-letter quotes just to remember for the future... (Later , I'll have plenty to say ).

Pushing himself to his feet, Sam grimaced at the pins and needles in his calves. The chair was very hard and cut into the back of his thighs when he bent over a book. I need to remember to bring a cushion. It would be even better if he could sleep down here, in the cell he’d found half-hidden behind four chests full of loose pages that had gotten separated from the books they belonged to, but he did not want to leave Maester Aemon alone for so long. He had not been strong of late and required help, especially with the ravens. Aemon had Clydas, to be sure, but Sam was younger, and better with the birds.

And later ,after he learns he's being sent to Oldtown ...

I could hide, he told himself. I could hide in the vaults amongst the books. I could live down there with the mouse and sneak up at night to steal food. Crazed thoughts, he knew, as futile as they were desperate. The vaults were the first place they would look for him. The last place they would look for him was beyond the Wall, but that was even madder. The wildlings would catch me and kill me slowly. They might burn me alive, the way the red woman means to burn Mance Rayder.

As it happens , he doesn't mention the cell to anyone and leaves for Oldtown the next day. I won't take the thread OT, but I think this little cell could well be very important to deciphering (speculating on) the events of Jon's arc in ADWD. Pointing out the first and last places anyone would look for a missing Sam invites us to consider and compare what would be the first and last places anyone might look for other missing characters , later .. and I think it will prove to be an important clue in the future.

I'm amused at the thought that the cell is introduced by way of the anecdote of a mouse in the room with Sam , but is itself an elephant in the room ( or points to one ) as we try to wrap our heads around what's going on at Castle Black all through ADWD...( More on that as we go..)

For now, both Sam and Jon are having to steel themselves to do things they'd really rather not. Sam has to face his fears, while Jon has to face responsibilities that will deny him the enjoyment and comfort of being close with his friends.

Ragnorak...So many good points and food for thought in your post ..and so much I want to say..( but it's a busy day for me..) I'll be back , but I just wanted to register the above and flag it before moving on..

[Mithras]

This chapter has so many things to speculate.

• House Caswell’s coat of arms is a centaur with bow. Orbert Caswell was called the Black Centaur after taking the black. This rings the bell for Lyanna-Brandon. We will see them being called centaurs. That automatically brings Jon into the picture as well. Remember the scene where he was escaping the Magnar near Queenscrown. He was able to get on the horse with his sword in his hand and bleeding like a butchered pig. That was very centaurish. He fought mostly with his bow at the Wall, both against Magnar and Mance. Is the fate of the Black Centaur supposed to say something about Jon?.
  
• Dragon eggs at the Wall are certainly interesting. Sam mentions them out of nowhere so they must be important. GRRM put them here for a reason.
  
• Sam is aware of Stannis’ plan to use Val as a mortar for binding the wildlings and the North.
  
• Sam finds Jon reading a parchment in his chamber. Mormont’s Raven is on his shoulder and he seems like he is reading too. That rings the alarm because if someone is in the bird, he/she must be literate. Later we will see the raven sent by treacherous Karstark maester sitting on the maester's shoulder at a position where he can easily read the letter as Roose was reading it at the Great Hall.
  
• Maggy the Frog and Yna the one-eyed prostitute in Braavos share a common thing as far as we know. They can taste a drop of blood and tell someone’s fortune. I have a wild feeling that Mormont’s Raven might have looked at Sam’s future by breaking his skin and tasting his blood.
  
• Speaking of this fortunetelling, we can recall the following quote from MMD:
  

“My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great Shepherd, and how to make the sacred smokes and ointments from leaf and root and berry. When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.”

So a Dothraki woman taught MMD the magics of corn. Mormont’s Raven has an obsession with Corn. If the raven tasted Sam's blood to foresee his future like a proper maegi, this can add an interesting dimension to the favourite word of Mormont's Raven.

• If we compare this chapter with the one from Jon’s perspective, Jon does not give the dialogue below but he notes how the raven screamed blood. I think this must be important.
  

“Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery.”

“Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.”

The raven looked up from the floor. “Blood,” it screamed.

There is a nice joke in the bolded sentence. Jon as the product of R+L surely has far more royal blood than Mance.

• The following quote does not make sense:
  

“I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

“Dragonsteel?” Jon frowned. “Valyrian steel?”

We know that all the accounts of Long Night and Age of Heroes were recorded thousands of years later by the septons. Steel was introduced to Westeros by the Andals. Before that, Bronze Age was happening though there existed special steel blades like Dawn.

In real world, meteoric iron was used to make steel items during the Bronze Age. That was because the meteorites have a very pure iron content along with some alloying metals. This purity makes it fitting to produce steel. Iron ore mined from earth requires much advanced furnaces to get rid of impurities and these furnaces did not exist in the Bronze Age.

In short, dragonsteel must either be of meteoric origin (which does not make much sense) or it must not be steel at all. It is more likely that the septons mistranslated or simply did not understand the old legends or runes left from ancient First Men. Besides, it is said that the Last Hero was seeking the magic of the CotF and most probably the children helped him.

• This chapter is all about ancient lore, heroes, dreams, and prophecies. Is this meant to tell us something?
  
• Aemon’s excuse of leaving the Wall is not very convincing at all. Stannis is trying to bind the wildlings to his cause. Burning Mance maybe justifiable but burning his baby along with him destroys everything he is trying to make. Jon told this exact same reason to Gilly, that her boy will be safe because Stannis would not dare to burn him. Burning Maester Aemon is beyond comparison. If he really does such a thing, he loses the realm once and for all. Therefore, Maester Aemon wanted to leave the Wall and found an excuse to do so.
  
• Speaking of prophecies in this chapter, there is the Jade Compendium. Later Jon will quote the passage Aemon wanted him to read. It tells us how AA thrusted Lightbringer to a beast and its blood boiled, its eyes exploded and melted. I think Maester Aemon is trying to make Jo understand that the sword of Stannis is false and so he is. Because he already witnessed how the sword of Stannis makes no heat.
  

ETA: the effect of Lightbringer described in Jade Compendium is exactly the same with how Drogon killed Kraznys mo Nakloz and the boar savaging Barsena. In fact all the dragonkills with fire are described similarly.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

There's an archery connection between Jon, Arya, and Bran it comes up a bunch

As far as mice and Knowledge goes, according to Varys the only people who know the secrets of the red keep are known only to spiders and Ghosts (bloodraven)

I except bloodraven to shed some light on the red keep and dragonstone

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Knowledge

It would seem The North Remembers is a bit overgeneralized as Sam is sitting amidst a treasure of forgotten knowledge. North of the Wall remembers much more of what Sam is reading. Old Nan remembers a great deal too. If Roose Bolton is to be believed they probably chat about this forgotten knowledge in taverns on Skaagos, but the North, Winterfell, and the Watch have forgotten a great deal.

Sam's underground setting for this forgotten knowledge alludes to the knowledge stored in weirwoods that we'll learn about through Bran. His comment about the First Men having only runes and the histories being written by septons (and not maesters.. hmm) will also make the astute reader reflect back on this when we learn of the way weirwoods store knowledge. The occupants of Winterfell may have forgotten things amidst Rickard's southron ambitions, but the heart tree of Winterfell remembers which adds a destroying knowledge aspect to the Stannis offer or maybe a command for the North to forget.

It may be a little off topic (maybe I should wait for a Bran re-read :) ) but I needed to share this:

for the moment she grew formal and even a little stern, as she ceased being Bliss solely and took on an amalgam of other units “there must have been a time before the beginning of history when human beings were so primitive that, although they could remember events, they could not speak. Speech was invented and served to express memories and to transfer them from person to person. Writing was eventually invented in order to record memories and transfer them across time from generation to generation. All technological advance since then has served to make more room for the transfer and storage of memories and to make the recall of desired items easier. However, once individuals joined to form Gaia, all that became obsolete. We can return to memory, the basic system of record-keeping on which all else is built. Do you see that?”

...

“Nonhuman brains can’t store memories with the same density human brains can, and much of the room in all brains, human and nonhuman alike, must be given over to personal memories which are scarcely useful except to the particular component of the planetary consciousness that harbors them. However, significant quantities of advanced data can be, and are, stored in animal brains, also in plant tissue, and in the mineral structure of the planet.”

“In the mineral structure? The rocks and mountain range, you mean?”

“And, for some kinds of data, the ocean and atmosphere. All that is Gaia, too.”

This is from Asimov's "Foundation and Earth", from the Foundation series (an all time favorite of mine).

The Gaia (greek for Earth) people could be described by Bran's remark about the Children of the Forest:

"She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill."

Is anyone familiar with Asimov's work? Could it be an inspiration for the Children, what do you think?

[bemused]

Paper Waver ... in regard to dragonsteel , think of Doreah's tale from AGoT...

“Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

Dragonsteel and swords forged from meteors ( a thousand thousand dragons ) could have an obscure , now legendary connection.. The meteors being seen as dragons the same way some associated the comet as a dragon.

Might make sense... ?

[Fire Eater]

Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure.

As to the dragon egg Sam thinks of at the Wall, "Egg" was the alias used by Aegon V to hide his Targaryen identity. As Apple said, Daemon II dreams of a dragon hatching from an egg at Whitewalls which turns out to be Egg coming of age. Whitewalls as described by Dunk: It almost looks as if it's made of snow. I think this foreshadows a dragon, Jon, hatching from his egg or false identity.

To add to what Ragnorak said, the books Sam drops on his way to see Jon are the Jade Compendium, which contains the legend of AA, and Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons, which is clearly a book about Targaryens, and apotheosis refers to the deification or divinization of an individual. House Targaryen is currently exiled across the Narrow Sea and in a way, at the Wall, and Jon is hinted at being AA, which is in itself a divine status. The picture of Balerion the Black Dread is mentioned, and it might be a reference to Drogon, who is called Balerion reborn, and/or rather LC Caswell is called the "Black Centaur" so I imagine Jon would be a black dragon so to speak. This isn't the first black dragon reference to Jon, as we had another in ASoS.

"The chain is heavy, Sam, but my grandsire [Daeron II] had the right of it. So does your Lord Snow."

Jon being compared to Daeron the Good in this sentence, who married a Dornish princess, and brought Dorne into the realm. I think Jon will marry the "wildling princess," Val, and bring the wildlings into the realm.

A snowflake landed on Sam's nose. "Jon wants to see me?"

A snowflake landed on the letter [Cersei's plea to Jaime]. As it melted, the ink began to blur. Jaime rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it back to Peck. "No," he said. "Put this in the fire."

Lay these two quotes side by side, and I think the snowflake causing the ink to blur foreshadows the reveal of R+L=J will cause some internal turmoil for Jaime. He will feel conflicted having to choose between Jon and Cersei. "As tight as one hand would allow" could point to Jaime strangling Cersei with the Hand's chain. Finally, putting the letter into the fire could point to Cersei putting into action Aerys's plan.

ETA: the effect of Lightbringer described in Jade Compendium is exactly the same with how Drogon killed Kraznys mo Nakloz and the boar savaging Barsena. In fact all the dragonkills with fire are described similarly.

I noticed that as well. Dragonsteel could have been a mistranslation, the word "dragon" may have been a hint. Lightbringer may have been the name of the dragon, and the sword is actually a metaphor for a dragon like the pit of vipers Baelor went through to rescue the Dragonknight was a metaphor for Dorne. The CoTF didn't work any metal, and couldn't have forged a sword. I think they could have helped the last hero develop the warging skills to warg the one beast that could turn the tide: a dragon. AA could have been the first dragonrider.

[bemused]

There's just so much in this chapter ..here we get Sam's view of the switchback stair.

A small army was crawling over the ice a quarter of the way up, where a new switchback stair was creeping upward to meet the remnants of the old one. The sounds of their saws and hammers echoed off the ice. Jon had the builders working night and day on the task. Sam had heard some of them complaining about it over supper, insisting that Lord Mormont never worked them half so hard.

I know it's tempting to lump these complaints into the " growing serious disaffection" department , but I'm not confident that they should be. They may well be simply the run-of-the-mill grumblings that Mormont warned Jon of. All these men have seen action..some survived the Fist and Crasters , others , Styr's raid and Mance's attack, still others Bowen's pursuit of the Weeper and the bridge of Skulls. We've seen how Jon's friends compared stories. All of them must do it..

They know how essential the stair is, and while Mormont never worked them so hard , the stair was whole in Mormont's day ,and no one knew the real nature of what they'd be facing ,even from Mance ,back then. The men know they've lost between 200 and 300 of their brothers from Castle Black alone. ...They don't like being worked so hard, but they know someone has to do the job , and quickly.

We also see the wounded feelings among Jon's friends.

“I don’t have time for archery today, I need to go see Jon.”

“Jon? Jon? Do we know anyone named Jon, Grenn?”

“He means the Lord Commander.”

“Ohhh. The Great Lord Snow. To be sure. Why do you want to see him? He can’t even wiggle his ears.” Pyp wiggled his, to show he could. They were large ears, and red from cold. “He’s Lord Snow for true now, too bloody highborn for the likes of us.”

“Jon has duties,” Sam said in his defense. “The Wall is his, and all that goes with it.”

“A man has duties to his friends as well. If not for us, Janos Slynt might be our lord commander. Lord Janos would have sent Snow ranging naked on a mule. ‘Scamper on up to Craster’s Keep,’ he would have said, ‘and fetch me back the Old Bear’s cloak and boots.’ We saved him from that, but now he has too many duties to drink a cup of mulled wine by the fire?”

Grenn agreed. “His duties don’t keep him from the yard. More days than not, he’s out there fighting someone.”

This is sad , but the inevitable consequence of Jon needing to establish his authority even more quickly than he needs the stair built.

Sam points out that Jon has duties, and we can hope that will sink in a bit with Pyp and Grenn, eventually .

Sam is also aware of the reason behind Jon's commitment to the practice yard , but doesn't go into it.

It all seems to sink in with Edd , though he has the advantage of acting as Jon's steward to inform him.

It's very late where I am ..I'll have to spout more tomorrow.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

... His comment about the First Men having only runes and the histories being written by septons (and not maesters.. hmm) will also make the astute reader reflect back on this when we learn of the way weirwoods store knowledge.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Septons vs Maesters issue. The Andals were already literate when they invaded Westeros, bringing their holy book The Seven-Pointed Star with them. The First Men were not fully literate. So it follows that the Citadel (with its Maesters) could not have existed before the Andal Invasion. It fell to the literate Septons to record the legends of the First Men. The desire to do so might well be linked with the founding of the Citadel, as well as the desire to appropriate the FM's ability to communicate with ravens.

[bemused]

I wouldn't worry too much about the Septons vs Maesters issue. The Andals were already literate when they invaded Westeros, bringing their holy book The Seven-Pointed Star with them. The First Men were not fully literate. So it follows that the Citadel (with its Maesters) could not have existed before the Andal Invasion. It fell to the literate Septons to record the legends of the First Men. The desire to do so might well be linked with the founding of the Citadel, as well as the desire to appropriate the FM's ability to communicate with ravens.

But isn't the problem with this that having a religious perspective , they would be prone to skew what they were setting down to fit their idea of the truth ? To mis-characterize some things, or perhaps not even report things they didn't see the value of ?..or to see evil , for example , or simply misguidedness in people or things that were at odds with their religious beliefs ?

We know that the faith has gone through periods when zealotry was more prominent than at others . So I do worry a bit.

If there are some runes on rocks , or copies of them , in the vaults , my hope is that someone will still be able to read them. Sam might learn this in Oldtown , if some early translations exist... Or what I'm very curious to see , is if any of the free folk can still read runes. ( For example , Val and the late Dalla , Mance's "wise woman" ) How did Mance know that the rune-inscribed horn from the frostfangs wasn't the horn of Joramun ? As far as we know, no detailed description of it exists.

** Side question- Mel didn't actually burn Mance. Did she actually burn the horn ?.. Mind you, it was pretty large to be easily concealed , but it seems Mel may be able to sustain a number of glamours at once.( e.g. , herself , Mance and Lightbringer. ) **

ETA; Sorry , didn't mean to jump ahead.

[Mithras]

I noticed that as well. Dragonsteel could have been a mistranslation, the word "dragon" may have been a hint. Lightbringer may have been the name of the dragon, and the sword is actually a metaphor for a dragon like the pit of vipers Baelor went through to rescue the Dragonknight was a metaphor for Dorne. The CoTF didn't work any metal, and couldn't have forged a sword. I think they could have helped the last hero develop the warging skills to warg the one beast that could turn the tide: a dragon. AA could have been the first dragonrider.

“Oh, very well,” Luwin muttered. “So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

“The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests.

We also have a lot of references in the text to "steel kiss", "fiery kiss", "kissed by fire" etc. I think all these point to a translation error between steel and fire. At the time of the Last Hero, probably there was no word for steel. It was not invented even at the time of Andal Invasion.

I am fully on board with the CotF opening the third eye of the Last Hero to make him able to ride a dragon.

This

And yet… old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets.

The comet was splendid and scary all at once. “The Red Sword,” the Bull named it; he claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge. When Arya squinted the right way she could see the sword too, only it wasn’t a new sword, it was Ice, her father’s greatsword, all ripply Valyrian steel, and the red was Lord Eddard’s blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn the King’s Justice had cut off his head. Yoren had made her look away when it happened, yet it seemed to her that the comet looked like Ice must have, after.

“I’ve heard servants calling it the Dragon’s Tail.”

“In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger,” Varys said. “They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow.”

“Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.”

“It is the sword that slays the season,”

“Dragons,” she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. “It be dragons, boy,” she insisted.

“The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it’s an omen of victory for Riverrun—he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue.” She sighed. “I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color.”

“That thing’s not crimson,” Ser Brynden said. “Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That’s blood up there, child, smeared across the sky.”

The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star.

And this

“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

“Nor I, my lord,” said the armorer. “I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see.”

Tyrion put down Joffrey’s sword and took up the other. If not twins, the two were at least close cousins. This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night. Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king’s sword had only two. Joff’s hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lions’ paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions’ heads for pommels.

“Magnificent.” Even in hands as unskilled as Tyrion’s, the blade felt alive. “I have never felt better balance.”

I think Ned being beheaded by Ice had a magical consequence which triggered the Red Comet. If we bring together different accounts, the comet is Targaryen Red. Arya's account and Gendry calling it the Red Sword is very interesting. I think when Ice was joined with Ned's blood, the metal of Oathkeeper was created, which was announced by the Red Comet. I think Oathkeeper will be the ultimate sword of Jon.

Almost every person in the books speculates about the meaning of the comet except Jon.

[Bran Vras]

Thank you Ragnorak. About Hobb, it seems that the cook remained stubbornly candidate for the choosing, and had a constant electorate of five, but for the last vote. Then the five acorns made no appearance, hence the corresponding votes went logically to Jon. So Hobb had a marked preference for Jon over Marsh, Slynt, Yarwyck etc.

The dual view of Jon Snow

Since this is a Jon Snow re-read, and the last time Sam sees Jon, I paid some attention to how Sam perceives Jon. What arrests me is the last passage quoted by Ragnorak.

Jon, he’d said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice.

It’s a significant testimony on how Jon develops as into a hard man (or, at least, can be perceived as such). There is an echo of the fearsome Brandon "Ice-eyes" Stark. This is to be contrasted with Sam’s final impression of Jon as a protecting and compassionate figure, brotherly perhaps.

Jon smiled a strange, sad smile. “And pull your hood up. The snowflakes are melting in your hair.”

So everyone can make his choice of who is the real Jon Snow. To me it seems that Gilly’s views have solidified.

“As you command, my lady.”

A spasm of anger flashed across Gilly’s face. “Don’t you call me that. I’m a mother, not a lady. I’m Craster’s wife and Craster’s daughter, and a mother.”

But it will be better discussed in the next Jon chapter.

The chapter might tell us something about Jon’s self-regard. Sam found that all very young Lord Commander (Osric Stark etc) were Starks, a fact that had not escaped Jon (thanks to Luwin’s teaching?). I have tried to stress upthread that Jon should take more seriously the contestation of his legitimacy. Isn’t the notion that the Wall belongs foremost to the Starks (second sons and bastards) conductive to a sense of entitlement?

Library, maesters

The chapter is an opening of the journey to Oldtown, a destination that has been described in prologue of AFfC. As a continuation of the prologue, we learn a few more things about the Citadel and the order of maesters (House Tarly is hostile to maesters by tradition. Are other houses as well? The maesters routinely open corpses.) The library in the vault of Castle Black recalls the vaults at the Citadel. It holds thousands of books, a figure that has been noted to exceed by an order of magnitude what can be found in Winterfell. As Sam said, the library is a treasure.

It is likely that the order of maesters followed the appearance of the septons in Westeros, as Ragnorak and Ibbison said, but what happened at the Wall is far from clear. A sept is to be found at Castle Black, but none at the Nightfort (I believe that the unholy octagonal kitchen is there to underline that). The reform of the Watch imposed by Alysanne (extension of the Gift + abandonment of the Nightfort) might have to with the Faith especially since the little tales of the Nightfort paint a place hostile to the Andals, and Alysanne and Jaehaerys were the sovereign who made peace with the Faith. Bran saw an empty library at the Nightfort (were the books moved to Castle Black?).

(About the history of the order of maesters, my own thinking is that the maesters replaced the greenseers. They shared the functions of postmen and guardians of knowledge. And there are interesting little details that I have examined elsewhere. What sort of continuity connected the two categories is unclear.)

The critical reexamination of the septons’ histories by the maesters is interesting. In GRRM’s narrative stance, one wonders whether there is an objective History, or if it matters at all. Everything can be reexamined. Truth matters less than the coherent narratives one can build. It touches on the question of History written by the victors, and the ownership of History as tied to political domination etc etc. All this reappears in the dialogue between Hoster Blackwood and Jaime. The maesters’ claim of being authentic historians is at least tainted by the behaviour of people like the Blackwoods and Brackens who have infiltrated the order to promote their views.

Aemon has gathered books that the Citadel doesn’t have. It can mean that the Wall has long been outside the Citadel’s influence. Otherwise I suppose that a maester in residence would have been given the task to copy the books that the Citadel didn’t have. An alternative explanation would be that Aemon has only recently realized (in light of current events?) that certain books would be valuable in Oldtown.

It’s not clear whether Maester Tomax’ book is among those required by Aemon. I don’t see why colored inks would be needed to depict a black dragon. Of course the black dragon in the mud seems a fitting imagery for a certain dragon in the muddy waters of the Rhoyne.

The Oldtown journey, Aemon

There is no question that the idea of the Oldtown journey comes at least partly from Aemon.

“As my lord commands. Does... does Maester Aemon know?”

“It was as much his idea as mine.” Jon opened the door for him. “No farewells. The fewer folk

who know of this, the better. An hour before first light, by the lichyard.”

Given that Aemon has the knack, like many maesters, to instill ideas in the men he advises, it’s safe to say that the idea comes at least as much from him. I agree with Paper Waver that Aemon would not have left the Wall against his will, and we can easily read that he has deliberately manipulated Jon Snow.

There could be a benign explanation along the following lines. Aemon, due to his cultural background as a Targaryen, or to his education as a maester, or to his long life experience, understands better than common mortals the current danger for the realm. Consequently, he intends to make an appeal personally to the Conclave (as he seems to already have via letters), after having reasoned that Sam might not be taken seriously. Aemon’s calculation could be that the Conclave can broadcast to all maesters in the realm that the Wall needs help. At that point, every maester could use whatever influence he has over the lord he serves. The need for Aemon to manipulate Jon (with the false notion that king’s blood makes Aemon a target for Melisandre) is justified in the sense that otherwise Jon would have no valid reason for sending Aemon away.

I can imagine another motivation for Aemon, but it is largely in hindsight, and has no place at his point of the reread.

Let’s return to the journey. Jon says: The fewer folk who know of this, the better. Note that Sam has sworn his vows to Bowen Marsh personally, and Marsh has not been warned of Sam’s departure. So the departure seems to be a covert operation that will turn into a fait accompli. We have Aemon’s remark.

“It is always warm in Oldtown. There is an inn on an island in the Honeywine where I used to go when I was a young novice. It will be pleasant to sit there once again, sipping cider.”

For the black brothers, such words contrast painfully with the prospect of Winter at the Wall. So, I repeat my suggestion that being sent to Oldtown seems like a privilege, perhaps even a desertion that doesn’t say its name. Sam himself wonders whether he will ever come back to Castle Black. In the escort, one finds Left Hand Lew, apparently one of the four assassins of Jon Snow. Did Lew conceive a resentment at Sam’s privileged treatment at this point?

We meet the new first ranger: Black Jack Bulwer. House Bulwer is seated just next door to Oldtown. So Bulwer should be familiar with House Tarly, and knows who Sam is, and that Sam's aunt is the Lady of Oldtown. But, once again, Sam makes no effort to connect to the nobility of the Reach, and doesn’t consider the prospect of meeting his Florent cousins in Eastwatch. In any case, we learn that Jon has given the command of the rangers to a man of high birth. Why Bulwer is called Black Jack is not said – perhaps simply because he comes from Blackcrown.

Aemon draws a parallel between himself and Sam (both discouraged to join the Citadel by their fathers). The night before he had drawn a parallel between Jon and Egg. So Aemon sees a commonality of destinies between two pairs of ruler/maester: Egg/Aemon and Jon/Sam. (Of course that might extend to the parallel between the recent choosing and the Great Council of 233.)

A few more details: We learn that Aemon joined the Citadel voluntarily. We see him alone in the rookery (which confirms that he can move freely in Castle Black). I find stupefying that Sam reports what he has found in the library and Aemon has nothing to add, for instance on the nature of the Others, on dragonsteel etc. Aemon surely knows every book to be found in the library. Why does he keep so much to himself?

@Shadowcat: I have been told that the children of the forest, the collective memory etc seems to take inspiration form a short story « A song for Lya» by an author called George R.R. Martin.

[Ragnorak]

It may be a little off topic (maybe I should wait for a Bran re-read :) ) but I needed to share this:

This is from Asimov's "Foundation and Earth", from the Foundation series (an all time favorite of mine).

The Gaia (greek for Earth) people could be described by Bran's remark about the Children of the Forest:

"She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill."

Is anyone familiar with Asimov's work? Could it be an inspiration for the Children, what do you think?

My Asimov is probably 20 years rusty, but he is an author Martin has read extensively. I see Bran Vras has noted that the weirnet is further elaboration from one of Martin's earlier works. Personally I've only read Fevre Dream outside of Martin's ASOIAF related works.

Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure.

As to the dragon egg Sam thinks of at the Wall, "Egg" was the alias used by Aegon V to hide his Targaryen identity. As Apple said, Daemon II dreams of a dragon hatching from an egg at Whitewalls which turns out to be Egg coming of age. Whitewalls as described by Dunk: It almost looks as if it's made of snow. I think this foreshadows a dragon, Jon, hatching from his egg or false identity.

To add to what Ragnorak said, the books Sam drops on his way to see Jon are the Jade Compendium, which contains the legend of AA, and Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons, which is clearly a book about Targaryens, and apotheosis refers to the deification or divinization of an individual. House Targaryen is currently exiled across the Narrow Sea and in a way, at the Wall, and Jon is hinted at being AA, which is in itself a divine status. The picture of Balerion the Black Dread is mentioned, and it might be a reference to Drogon, who is called Balerion reborn, and/or rather LC Caswell is called the "Black Centaur" so I imagine Jon would be a black dragon so to speak. This isn't the first black dragon reference to Jon, as we had another in ASoS.

"<snip>

Good stuff, Fire Eater. I seem to recall you had an interpretation on the muddy black dragon back in one of the Foreshadowing threads. Maybe it involved a combination of the books?

I wouldn't worry too much about the Septons vs Maesters issue. The Andals were already literate when they invaded Westeros, bringing their holy book The Seven-Pointed Star with them. The First Men were not fully literate. So it follows that the Citadel (with its Maesters) could not have existed before the Andal Invasion. It fell to the literate Septons to record the legends of the First Men. The desire to do so might well be linked with the founding of the Citadel, as well as the desire to appropriate the FM's ability to communicate with ravens.

I had assumed the Citadel was a product of the Andals. Did maesters come with the Andals or was the order established after the fact? Is the Septon transcriptions a clue about when the Citadel was founded or were maesters around and just not used? Was it a numbers thing with plentiful Septons and too few chained scholars?

Bemused hit on one of my bigger questions with Septons rewriting or skewing First Men history. On the same topic we have Bran Vras bringing in the more general theme of truth in history. That idea is echoed in the songs that are lies as Sansa hears at the Purple Wedding yet also a Bard's Truth as Ygritte notes to Jon-- both lies yet one is a deceit and the other a "greater truth" or parable. Does truth matter? For Varys no, illusion matters as the illusion of power is power itself. The truth of history matters to Stannis in war:

“When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne, he used a goat track to bypass the Dornish watchtowers on the Boneway.”

“I know that tale as well, but Daeron made too much of it in that vain-glorious book of his. Ships won that war, not goat tracks. Oakenfist broke the Planky Town and swept halfway up the Greenblood whilst the main Dornish strength was engaged in the Prince’s Pass.” Stannis drummed his fingers on the map.

What here applies to the Library and Sam's task? One theory floating around posits that the Nights Watch oath sworn before a Heart Tree has power and matters for fighting the Others. That is the type of the thing that Septons would edit out also the type of truth that would very much matter.

It is a topic Martin toys with throughout the series.

“<snip>

Almost every person in the books speculates about the meaning of the comet except Jon.

This is a very interesting observation.

Thank you Ragnorak. About Hobb, it seems that the cook remained stubbornly candidate for the choosing, and had a constant electorate of five, but for the last vote. Then the five acorns made no appearance, hence the corresponding votes went logically to Jon. So Hobb had a marked preference for Jon over Marsh, Slynt, Yarwyck etc.

While the cook' preferences are not an especially consequential matter, I love the details-- the election math, the food for Sam, the bone for Ghost. Such great little subtle items thrown in for very minor characters.

The dual view of Jon Snow

Since this is a Jon Snow re-read, and the last time Sam sees Jon, I paid some attention to how Sam perceives Jon. What arrests me is the last passage quoted by Ragnorak.

Jon, he’d said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice.

It’s a significant testimony on how Jon develops as into a hard man (or, at least, can be perceived as such). There is an echo of the fearsome Brandon "Ice-eyes" Stark. This is to be contrasted with Sam’s final impression of Jon as a protecting and compassionate figure, brotherly perhaps.

Jon smiled a strange, sad smile. “And pull your hood up. The snowflakes are melting in your hair.”

So everyone can make his choice of who is the real Jon Snow. To me it seems that Gilly’s views have solidified.

“As you command, my lady.”

A spasm of anger flashed across Gilly’s face. “Don’t you call me that. I’m a mother, not a lady. I’m Craster’s wife and Craster’s daughter, and a mother.”

But it will be better discussed in the next Jon chapter.

The chapter might tell us something about Jon’s self-regard. Sam found that all very young Lord Commander (Osric Stark etc) were Starks, a fact that had not escaped Jon (thanks to Luwin’s teaching?). I have tried to stress upthread that Jon should take more seriously the contestation of his legitimacy. Isn’t the notion that the Wall belongs foremost to the Starks (second sons and bastards) conductive to a sense of entitlement?

Brandon Ice Eyes is an interesting catch and may have some potential tie ins with White Harbor which came up last chapter though I can't come up with one now. I connected it to Bran's observation about Robb putting on a Lord's Face like Ned did. This ties in to your compassionate brotherly observation.

Our lady mother would skin me for a pelt if I let you put yourself at risk.” He was using the voice of Robb the Lord when he said it; Bran knew that meant there was no appeal.

Robb was still able to go into Bran's room and cry and speak of visiting Jon at the Wall though. By sending Sam (and Aemon) away Jon isn't going to have that brotherly connection where he can break down and cry (even if only a metaphorical cry) in private despite being surrounded by "brothers." That is a thing of the past with Sam, at least for now though the Robb hair memory suggests it may have been different had Sam stayed. In fact duality in leadership is a theme in ASOIAF. The King and the Hand. Doran and Oberyn with the viper hiding in the grass. The Tyrells are led by Mace but only when Olenna agrees. Even Ned who was largely a solo ruler still relied on Cat and Luwin. Tywin and Kevan, Robb and the Greatjon too. It will get even lonelier for Jon when he starts opening forts and sending his more trusted men like Edd away to lead them. Does Jon have a leadership partner like a Hand, or a wife, or a true brother prior to Tormund coming through the Wall?

I'm not as on board with Jon's need to be wary of his contested legitimacy as you are. My read on the Stannis comment is more under the umbrella of his testing Jon and that was one of many shots. He threatens to take the castles by force, calls him boy, throws out talk of beheadings-- he's seeing what Jon is made of, feeling him out. At least that my read on the exchange. I'm not trying to say "you're wrong." I can hardly call taking Stannis saying "I can't say there isn't a problem with your election" as Stannis seeing a problem with his election an unreasonable interpretation of the text. No real point here other than to make note of the divergent views and we'll see how the course of the road differs as we progress.

Now that we're in Sam I, I had written this up already so I had the question of whether the builders fall under Jon's thicker gloves umbrella or not already in mind prior. Does Jon think everyone needs to toughen up because the road ahead is going to get worse? Is Jon a ranger first in his mind and unjustly ignoring the builders? Does he see the task as so obviously important (as Sam seems to as well) that he is overlooking the morale impact of the greater workload? Same with the gloves for southern guards. Is it a thicker gloves moment? Is it a Benjen bear cloak offer to Tyrion? Is it preferential treatment or is he wandering into a grey area? Words are not swords, but swords are swords-- what are gloves? I'm mostly inclined to see the glove offer as closer to the Benjen bear cloak offer. Pyp and Grenn I'm inclined to view as friends that need to adapt to the new situation they helped create and not any larger problem. The disgruntled builder at dinner that Sam overhears is an oversight on Jon's part. He doesn't need to coddle them or even thank them, but simply showing up and watching or using his presence to make the importance of the task known would have been a wise choice. It isn't sticking all the bows on one boat and all the arrows on the other, but it is a mistake or shortfall based on the leadership style Jon tries to manifest for himself.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The Andals came from Essos, which was the home of several empires (Qarth, Ghis, Valyria) which were literate. The Andals (or at least their septons) were literate, and would have had access to whatever educational systems existed in Essos. Once they reached Westeros and started conquering/converting the First Men, they would find the need to set up their own educational system, since literacy is required for septons in a religion based on a holy book.

The leadership of the Faith was based at Oldtown, at the Starry Sept, until much later when Baelor Targaryen moved it to King's Landing. I envision the Citadel as an evolutionary descendent of the first religious educational system set up by the Andals. It was at first probably something like a European cathedral school from the Middle Ages, and must have eventually gained enough power to break away and become independent of the Faith.

I find it interesting that a weirwood still stands at the Citadel, near the ravenry. Perhaps the First Men had a raven training establishment at Oldtown, which was absorbed by the new Citadel due to its usefulness. (We see no sign of raven usage in Essos, as it was originally taught to the FM in Westeros by the CotF.) The Andal crusades against the Old God worshipers apparently never reached Oldtown, or the tree would have been destroyed - the transition must have been peaceful there.

We've always assumed that the Citadel applied a "scholarly whitewash" to the northern legends that they refer to. That is part of the debate between Luwin and Bran. If the septons wrote down the legends first, they might have applied a "religious whitewash", condemning the CotF as demons, etc., but that seems to have been changed to the scholarly attitude that Luwin displays - the CotF as historical figures that aren't relevant anymore, and their magic gone. Either way, we are finding a more accurate history preserved in the oral northern traditions.

[Mithras]

“When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne, he used a goat track to bypass the Dornish watchtowers on the Boneway.”

“I know that tale as well, but Daeron made too much of it in that vain-glorious book of his. Ships won that war, not goat tracks. Oakenfist broke the Planky Town and swept halfway up the Greenblood whilst the main Dornish strength was engaged in the Prince’s Pass.” Stannis drummed his fingers on the map.

Jon is highly associated with the Young Dragon. It is ironic how Stannis captured Deepwood Motte by following that goat tracks under the advice of the Young Dragon 2.0.