Jon killed Ygritte: arrow fletching means nothing

[theREALjonsnow]

per the discussion as to Gendel and Gorne and why GRRM's give us this story through Jon's POV by the wilding ygritte. not to figure out some mystical tunnel that lets you go from side to side. but the mention of Children deep in the caves and ygritte wanting to have his children and live in this magical sanctuary forever...

Also if Dany the Princess of Dragonstone sacrificed her Horselord King and the seed he gave her to the fires, and the Giant Imp Lannister of Casterly Rock strangled his secret whore who had his seed with cold hands of gold after discovering her abed with his father (not really cuz A+J=T) then what did Jon Targaryen the 999th LC King of Winter and Night do...

• he went through the Wall seeking to become a hero yet became a traitor, stole a girl kissed by fire and gave her is seed, brought her back over the Wall and fled from her love, when she shows up at Castle Black he lets loose with an arrow that kills his spearwife and his seed within only to then give them both to the flames...
  

• the Jon Snow story centers around kinslaying & kingslaying with a little bit of bloodlines & tragedy thrown in that all hero's must endure to fulfill their destinies. what has happened before will happen again. Bran and Jon are the same men who went through the foundation of Winterfell, the Wall, King of Winter and his brother Night King and their interaction with the mysterious King-Beyond-the-Wall. ( both the Mance and BR)
  

" Jon Snow, she told him as he spent his seed inside her. Don't move now sweet I like the feel of you inside there, I do. Let's go down inside and join with Gendel's children. I don't ever want to leave this cave, Jon Snow. Not ever." SOS Jon

obviously a reference to becoming immortal gods that go into the trees like children of the forest do with heart trees. also signifies that their relationship is comparable to the love shared between squirrel people and their two hearts that beat as one...

" He washed the arrow too, turning it in his hands. Was the fletching grey, or white? Yrgritte fletched her arrows with pale grey goose feathers. Did she loose a shaft at me as I fled? Jon could not blame her for that. He wondered if she had been aiming at him or the horse. If the mare had gone down he would have been doomed..." SOS Jon

at this point right after the event he does not know who committed the act... but pay close attention to the mention of grey and white, also the consequences of a horse shot.

" He could feel the throb of pain where her arrow had gone through the meat and muscle of his thigh. he remembered the old man's eyes too, and the black blood rushing from his throat as the storm cracked over head. But he remembered the grotto best of all, the look of her naked in the torchlight, the taste of her mouth when it opened under his. Ygritte, stay away. Go south and raid, go hide in one of those round towers you liked so well. You'll find nothing here but death..." SOS Jon

the very next POV he has now recalled that it was indeed her that shot the arrow (this is not the same as previous chapter when he did not know), the old man she murdered to prove jon's loyalty to wildlings, the storm represents the chaos that was the choice he must make, then the cave. and we finish with a macabre prediction about who will find her if the women he loves shows up at Castle Black...

also i didn't put the quote but he is now on a single crutch. that is a symbol of his false belief in her betrayal... this crutch is what he uses to justify his return to the Black Brothers and his abandonment of his false life with her...

" A man is never so vulnerable in battle as when he flees, Lord Eddard had told Jon once. A running man is like a wounded animal to a soldier. It gets his bloodlust up." SOS Jon

this is a direct comparison to what Jon & Ygritte are doing to each other and its in the battle scene to boot. Also note that it is Eddard's voice in Jon's POV late in Storm of Swords that is explaining what is taking place between the bastard and the girl kissed by fire... kind of important.

" Jon reached down to his quiver and found it empty again." SOS Jon

just a quote...

" With all the confusion at the trapdoor, Jon had forgotten to fill his quiver." SOS Jon

another one i thought i'd add.

"The real battle was on the steps." SOS Jon

just a lil hint for later quote...

" His wounded leg hurt so badly that he could hardly walk, even with the crutch. Bring the torch, he told the boy from Oldtown. I need to look for someone. It had been mostly Thenns on the steps. Surely some of the free folk had escaped. Mance's people, not the Magnars. She might have been one." SOS Jon

first place Jon goes to look is where the most bodies were pilled up. the place he did the most destruction and yet still has hope despite his earlier prediction that death would find her. also take note to inability to tolerate the pain and the failure of the crutch...

" He found Ygritte sprawled across a patch of old snow beneath the Lord Commander's Tower, with an arrow between her breasts. The ice crystals had settled over her face, and in the moonlight it looked as though she wore a glittering silver mask.' SOS Jon

just to full of flowery language. a signal that GRRM wants us to pay attention...

"The arrow was black, Jon saw, but it was fletched with white duck feathers. Not mine, he told himself, not one of mine. But he felt as if it were." SOS Jon

yep i use your own quotes as my proof. he felt as if it were because it was his...

" Jon Snow, she said very softly. It sounded as though the arrow had found a lung. Is this a proper castle now? not just a tower? It is, Jon took her hand. Good she whispered . I wanted t'see one proper castle before I... before I..." SOS Jon

" You're kissed by fire, remember? Lucky. It will take more than an arrow to kill you. She just smiled at that. Do you remember that cave? We should have stayed in that cave. I told you so. We'll go back to the cave, he said. Your're not going to die, Ygritte. You're Not. Oh, Ygritte cupped his cheek with her hand. You know nothing Jon Snow, she sighed dying..." SOS Jon

she calls him back to the cave of the Gendel's Children to reference that she had his seed. Jon Snow the bastard o' winterfell and her could have stayed in the cave together forever and she could have had his children. Now do we still think she was the person who let loose an arrow at him when he was on the horse? I don't...

" His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. Ygritte he whispered. Forgive me. Please. But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark..." SOS Jon

why is he looking for her in the crypts? also why does he need her to forgive him? what has he done to her?

note that in the dream he is unable to stand on his crutch and falls to his knees. It is at his point he figures out that she isn't the one who loosed the arrow at him, but he in fact killed her with a shot to her chest. She wanted to live forever in the children's cave but he had a duty to his Black Brothers at Castle Black...

also the ghost of robb is in their for following his heart hence all the stab wounds from marrying jeyne westerling (lannister) which lead to his betrayl by the freys (andals) a warning of what true love leads to...

" Both gone now. He had burned Ygritte himself, as he knew she would have wanted, and Ghost... Where are you? Was he dead as well, was that what his dream had meant, the bloody wolf in the crypts? But the wolf in his dreams had been grey, not white. Grey like Bran's wolf." SOS Jon

" You ought burn them you killed, said Ygritte." COK Jon 51

" Aye, she said, but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing..." COK Jon 51

" Those you call the children of the forest have eyes golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of a forest. By these signs do the gods mark those the have chosen to receive the gift. The chose ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance." ADWD Bran 34

all of this is proof enough that Jon Snow killed his lady love and is now cursed...

[dios_achilleus]

I offer the following criticism of your argument so that you may improve your writing. This is not a personal attack, please do not take it as such. It is easy to misread text over the internet. Do not take offense. It's good that you're trying to piece together a theory, especially one that could bear some significance if Jon Snow is actually a kinslayer, but you have not demonstrated that 1) Jon killed Ygritte, nor that 2) Ygritte was pregnant.

First, Jon felt like he had killed her because he betrayed her love. He could have stayed with her, honored her, and helped the Wildling expedition capture Castle Black. He had the knowledge and the away team had the strength to do so.

There is no indication that Ygritte was pregnant, and even if she was, the gods don't exist and kinslaying is no worse than any other killing (that is, we have no evidence that kinslaying or any other curse/ blessing is real, only characters attributing events to the gods). Moreover, if Jon is cursed, what evidence do we have of that curse in ADWD? Him getting stabbed is not enough. You need to show a pattern of the curse affecting him leading up to the Et Tu Brute moment.

Whether Ygritte shoots at Jon is irrelevant to whether or not Jon shot Ygritte.

I see no significance in Jon's difficulty walking. Why do you bring attention to that?

Why does the eye color of the COTF matter? Ygritte is "kissed by fire" because she has red hair. She doesn't have red eyes, neither does Jon. Neither have gold eyes. You draw attention to the quote without connecting it to a point. What's the point of this quote in regards to your theory?

You underline the pronouns "you" in Ygritte's statement on burning, but she's saying "you" because that's appropriate to the context. The present topic of conversation is dead wildlings (which would have presumably soon included Ygritte). She isn't saying "You personally should burn whomever you personally kill," she's using a general "you should burn anyone who dies." The context suggests that she should say "those you killed" instead of "those who are dead."

While it might be possible that Jon killed Ygritte, and it might even be possible that she was pregnant, you'll have to do better than what you've presented here. I hope this helps you reformulate your ideas and present your case in a more convincing manner.

[theREALjonsnow]

I offer the following criticism of your argument so that you may improve your writing. This is not a personal attack, please do not take it as such. It is easy to misread text over the internet. Do not take offense. It's good that you're trying to piece together a theory, especially one that could bear some significance if Jon Snow is actually a kinslayer, but you have not demonstrated that 1) Jon killed Ygritte, nor that 2) Ygritte was pregnant.

First, Jon felt like he had killed her because he betrayed her love. He could have stayed with her, honored her, and helped the Wildling expedition capture Castle Black. He had the knowledge and the away team had the strength to do so.

There is no indication that Ygritte was pregnant, and even if she was, the gods don't exist and kinslaying is no worse than any other killing (that is, we have no evidence that kinslaying or any other curse/ blessing is real, only characters attributing events to the gods). Moreover, if Jon is cursed, what evidence do we have of that curse in ADWD? Him getting stabbed is not enough. You need to show a pattern of the curse affecting him leading up to the Et Tu Brute moment.

Whether Ygritte shoots at Jon is irrelevant to whether or not Jon shot Ygritte.

I see no significance in Jon's difficulty walking. Why do you bring attention to that?

Why does the eye color of the COTF matter? Ygritte is "kissed by fire" because she has red hair. She doesn't have red eyes, neither does Jon. Neither have gold eyes. You draw attention to the quote without connecting it to a point. What's the point of this quote in regards to your theory?

You underline the pronouns "you" in Ygritte's statement on burning, but she's saying "you" because that's appropriate to the context. The present topic of conversation is dead wildlings (which would have presumably soon included Ygritte). She isn't saying "You personally should burn whomever you personally kill," she's using a general "you should burn anyone who dies." The context suggests that she should say "those you killed" instead of "those who are dead."

While it might be possible that Jon killed Ygritte, and it might even be possible that she was pregnant, you'll have to do better than what you've presented here. I hope this helps you reformulate your ideas and present your case in a more convincing manner.

Well I was hoping the first post would be somebody who would back me up but I guess TRJS must show you the light, for the night is dark and full of terrors.

the jon snow story centers around kinslaying, kingslaying and bloodlines and tragedy that hero's must endure do to their destinies. what has happened before will happen again. Bran and Jon the same men who went through the foundation of winterfell the wall kings of winter and night king and king beyond the wall.

metaphors, allegories and symbolism are abound in GRRM's writing technique. Not mine. I use textual quote's to prove my ideas which means I have a least a firm grasp of what I am saying. If you mind please don't take offense but I am going to attempt to show you why...

1. yes he did. but it is implied, not just given to you on a silver platter... he is now in function LC of Castle Black, saying she will finding nothing but death if she comes, the empty quiver mentioned twice means he was using multiple arrow fletchings not just grey goose, his father's reference to the heat of battle get's a man bloodlust up, and countless other sentences hint at what actually happened. Remember these are point of views from the characters perspective, jon will initially not want to believe that the perfect chest shot was his...

2. yes he did. once again this must be pulled from the text by an astute reader. the cave they bath in, where she gets her pussy eaten out is a allegory. Ygritte is our wildling prophet princess as she is constantly telling Jon Snow he knows nothing and giving him insight into ancient wisdom. thus taking his seed and her talking about staying hidden from the war forever is something he was to dense or unwilling to do at the time. fast forward to her dying breaths and she wants to call back to that cave and where they should have stayed. if you don't think she was pregnant that is fine, but since we don't ever get a yrgitte point of view neither of us will ever know...

also i am glad you brought up Jon getting stabbed. In the dream Jon has about winterfell crypts right after he killed ygritte he saw robbs wolf with golden eyes stabbed to death in looking at him. this is exactly what happens to jon in ADWD. great catch...

Do you really believe whether ygritte shot at jon is is irrelevant? imagine this scenario, which i basically provided with my text,but i think needs to be re-explained.

this is a song of ice and fire. the bastard o winterfell and the girl kissed by fire. so when she kills that old man to keep him part of the wildling group she is showing her devotion to him. also keep in mind i think at this point she knows he is with child. we he takes off on that horse she is not going to shoot an arrow at him or his horse. This is important whether you want to deny it or not. she loves him to much to ever attempt to harm him again...

after he gets away he pulls the arrow out and considers that it might have been his spearwife who betrayed him. He does this because he wants a way to return to his vows as a black brother and leave his wildling life behind. But he can't. she did not let loose at him and he is blaming her so that he may feel less guilty.

fast forward to his return to Castle Black. and he now remembers the story differently. SHE NOW SHOT HIM. this is a complete veering off track from his thoughts in the woods. also note that the arrow wound in his leg requires the use a crutch.

once again i view the crutch as a metaphor. it is his false belief that she would turn on him for being a member of nights/ bastard stark and shoot at him. But these are in fact the two things she most admired about him.

brans wolf summer has green eyes like moss, robbs wolf greywind had eyes gold like the sun, and jon snows wolf ghost has red eyes like blood. all of these are traits of children of the forest who have been marked for the gift. i dont know if that means the have their blood in ancient past or what but that is the connection to eyes if you haven't figured that out yet. Like Nymeria arya's wolf is the strongest warg due to her wild nature like lyanna. her wolf is a call back to the warrior queen or rhyone that had cotf connections. all of this is stuff you apparently missed.

once again with the burning. are you really using grammar to dispute my theory? she is a WILDLING she says shit funny, thus you ought burn them you kill, is exactly what jon does. he burns the girl who he had been giving his seed for quite some time and killed with an arrow. all of this tragedy ties back into my theory of being cursed like the night king of ages past. not the exact same story but sadness abound... think azor ahai stabbing nissa nissa to become great hero.

and dany did same to drogo and tyrion did same to shae.

i do not have to do better. these are the quotes in the book and no more. if you fail to see what is right in front of you eyes well then... have fun looking at the terrors :devil:

TRJS

[Eira Seren]

"the jon snow story centers around kinslaying, kingslaying and bloodlines and tragedy that hero's must endure do to their destinies. what has happened before will happen again. Bran and Jon the same men who went through the foundation of winterfell the wall kings of winter and night king and king beyond the wall."

This is a great starting point for what you're working on. What if you moved it to the opening lines of the OP?

[theREALjonsnow]

salve magister. valar doaeris :cheers:

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

brans wolf summer has green eyes like moss, robbs wolf greywind had eyes gold like the sun, and jon snows wolf ghost has red eyes like blood. all of these are traits of children of the forest who have been marked for the gift. i dont know if that means the have their blood in ancient past or what but that is the connection to eyes if you haven't figured that out yet. Like Nymeria arya's wolf is the strongest warg due to her wild nature like lyanna. her wolf is a call back to the warrior queen or rhyone that had cotf connections. all of this is stuff you apparently missed.

If you were trying to make reference to the direwolves in your original quote, it was not clear. I do not mean to be offensive, but I am just letting you know that it isn't obvious in your original post where you simply have a quote about the cotf eyes.

Also, the quote you provided does not match at all with what you have just pointed out about the direwolves eyes. Your quote says that it is those with green and red eyes that die young, while those with the golden eyes are normal and would thus live the significantly longer than human's life. However, Greywind, who has the golden eyes, is currently the only of those three direwolves who has died, and who has thus lived the shortest life. Unless you would like to suggest that Greywind is still alive, which some people have. However, your post shows evidence that he is, in fact, dead, with Jon seeing him in the crypts of Winterfell.

[Eira Seren]

salve magister. valar doaeris :cheers:

Hwaet!

I had to look up salve, I have almost no Latin. And what I do have sucks.

[MtnLion]

I don't know how you are going to square you ideas with the deliberate shooting of Jon by Ygritte in the screenplay. Of course we still have the battle of Castle Black to come, in the screenplay, so Ygritte's death is a bit of time away. Then we would come down to determining the point at which a fetus becomes and entity, and thus kin. Historically, a fetus is not a seperate individual until it draws the first breath of life (thus earning the right to draw its last breath).

[theREALjonsnow]

I don't know how you are going to square you ideas with the deliberate shooting of Jon by Ygritte in the screenplay. Of course we still have the battle of Castle Black to come, in the screenplay, so Ygritte's death is a bit of time away. Then we would come down to determining the point at which a fetus becomes and entity, and thus kin. Historically, a fetus is not a seperate individual until it draws the first breath of life (thus earning the right to draw its last breath).

yep that is something that crossed my mind. at the end of season 3 we get to she her shoot him... (show is not cannon but yep it happened.)

but, do we think her getting shot and killed at CB will be left up to a mystery in the show? i would think they might gives us some insight... also if shae is going to be killed by T this season, what better way to get the "message" across to TV viewers that the Bastard and Imp are still connected and cursed...

so we might see, keep in mind it is possible, that they show Jon shooting her, to get back at her shooting him...

In regards to your statements of fetus and individuality and entities and kin, I am sure you are correct in your opinion but I was just trying to draw a comparison to the "seed " and "lover" being killed at their own hands unknowingly/unwillingly in the act... they end the possibility that their offspring will grow and become great in future and are thus cursed.

[theREALjonsnow]

:bang: double post

[EmmaoftheCanals]

I think that ultimately this doesn't matter...

John will always feel complicit for her death, regardless of the fact that it was his actual arrow that killed her. He was the one who brought her to the wall to die. He didn't turn away her love so she followed him to the other side. He didn't stay with her in the cave forever. He didn't kill the old man and betrayed the wildlings. He went to warn the wall. He prepared the wall for assault. All of his actions made sure Ygritte died there and then. Or this is what he will always think.

I'm not convinced by your OP, but let say you are correct. Or more evidence is uncovered to support your idea. How will John ever now? How will we - the readers - ever know? So if Ygritte was pregnant and John's arrows killed her, I just don't see any literary devices that can convey this information to John. Finding out that she may have been pregnant may be possible, though I don't see Ygritte as the type of spearwife who would confide this personal information unto other members of their company. As to the fact of which arrow shot Ygritte: the battle was very fast. I doubt anybody paid attention to the arrows John shot or who exactly shot Ygritte. Maybe the old Gods will come to the scene with a list of acursed kinslayers, but to me this doesn't seem like the way GRRM works. I don't believe this information will reach John. If John never knows, his actions and motivations will not be changed. It will not alter is arc. So I think ultimately, it doesn't matter.

If you enjoy the parallels and added character dept that this theory brings about, then you should go ahead and believe it. I have done the same about many beloved fictional characters. Invented things that ultimately do not matter but just suit the character and make them more real in my mind. They make books so much better!

[dios_achilleus]

Well I was hoping the first post would be somebody who would back me up but I guess TRJS must show you the light, for the night is dark and full of terrors.

the jon snow story centers around kinslaying, kingslaying and bloodlines and tragedy that hero's must endure do to their destinies. what has happened before will happen again. Bran and Jon the same men who went through the foundation of winterfell the wall kings of winter and night king and king beyond the wall.

metaphors, allegories and symbolism are abound in GRRM's writing technique. Not mine. I use textual quote's to prove my ideas which means I have a least a firm grasp of what I am saying. If you mind please don't take offense but I am going to attempt to show you why...

1. yes he did. but it is implied, not just given to you on a silver platter... he is now in function LC of Castle Black, saying she will finding nothing but death if she comes, the empty quiver mentioned twice means he was using multiple arrow fletchings not just grey goose, his father's reference to the heat of battle get's a man bloodlust up, and countless other sentences hint at what actually happened. Remember these are point of views from the characters perspective, jon will initially not want to believe that the perfect chest shot was his...

2. yes he did. once again this must be pulled from the text by an astute reader. the cave they bath in, where she gets her pussy eaten out is a allegory. Ygritte is our wildling prophet princess as she is constantly telling Jon Snow he knows nothing and giving him insight into ancient wisdom. thus taking his seed and her talking about staying hidden from the war forever is something he was to dense or unwilling to do at the time. fast forward to her dying breaths and she wants to call back to that cave and where they should have stayed. if you don't think she was pregnant that is fine, but since we don't ever get a yrgitte point of view neither of us will ever know...

also i am glad you brought up Jon getting stabbed. In the dream Jon has about winterfell crypts right after he killed ygritte he saw robbs wolf with golden eyes stabbed to death in looking at him. this is exactly what happens to jon in ADWD. great catch...

Do you really believe whether ygritte shot at jon is is irrelevant? imagine this scenario, which i basically provided with my text,but i think needs to be re-explained.

this is a song of ice and fire. the bastard o winterfell and the girl kissed by fire. so when she kills that old man to keep him part of the wildling group she is showing her devotion to him. also keep in mind i think at this point she knows he is with child. we he takes off on that horse she is not going to shoot an arrow at him or his horse. This is important whether you want to deny it or not. she loves him to much to ever attempt to harm him again...

after he gets away he pulls the arrow out and considers that it might have been his spearwife who betrayed him. He does this because he wants a way to return to his vows as a black brother and leave his wildling life behind. But he can't. she did not let loose at him and he is blaming her so that he may feel less guilty.

fast forward to his return to Castle Black. and he now remembers the story differently. SHE NOW SHOT HIM. this is a complete veering off track from his thoughts in the woods. also note that the arrow wound in his leg requires the use a crutch.

once again i view the crutch as a metaphor. it is his false belief that she would turn on him for being a member of nights/ bastard stark and shoot at him. But these are in fact the two things she most admired about him.

brans wolf summer has green eyes like moss, robbs wolf greywind had eyes gold like the sun, and jon snows wolf ghost has red eyes like blood. all of these are traits of children of the forest who have been marked for the gift. i dont know if that means the have their blood in ancient past or what but that is the connection to eyes if you haven't figured that out yet. Like Nymeria arya's wolf is the strongest warg due to her wild nature like lyanna. her wolf is a call back to the warrior queen or rhyone that had cotf connections. all of this is stuff you apparently missed.

once again with the burning. are you really using grammar to dispute my theory? she is a WILDLING she says shit funny, thus you ought burn them you kill, is exactly what jon does. he burns the girl who he had been giving his seed for quite some time and killed with an arrow. all of this tragedy ties back into my theory of being cursed like the night king of ages past. not the exact same story but sadness abound... think azor ahai stabbing nissa nissa to become great hero.

and dany did same to drogo and tyrion did same to shae.

i do not have to do better. these are the quotes in the book and no more. if you fail to see what is right in front of you eyes well then... have fun looking at the terrors :devil:

TRJS

Don't mock me. I didn't mock you. Return me that courtesy at least. I offered you constructive criticism. You did not present your case well. For the most part, you offered quotes and said, "Isn't it obvious?" The other posters indicate that I was not the only one who didn't make the connections you desired to make (especially regarding the eyes of the COTF).

The Jon Snow Story does not center around kinslaying and kingslaying. Robert Baratheon, while a blood relative of Rhaegar, is not a kinslayer. No one ever says he is or even wonders if he might be. Rhaegar wasn't even king, not for a single moment, because Aerys was still alive when Rhaegar was killed. Please demonstrate who the kinslayers and kingslayers are in Jon's story.

You make a good statement here: "the empty quiver means he was using more arrows than his own, not just grey goose" (I paraphrase). That's relevant enough to your case. Include that in your OP. This kind of statement needs to be included with every quote you offer.

Eddard saying that running away gets a man's bloodlust up is irrelevant. Jon ran away, getting Ygritte's bloodlust up, not the other way around.

Regarding pregnancy, I went back and read the Gendel story. There's no indication that he, nor his children, are immortal, just that his descendants live on in the cave. Ygritte is suggesting that since Gendel made a life in the caves away from the world, they can too. You'll have to connect the dots for us on this one. How is it an allegory? How is Ygritte a prophet princess? Her telling Jon that he knows nothing is rarely followed by pearls of wisdom. It's just her teasing. If there's something deeper, show it.

Lots of people get stabbed, and lots of dreams are had without it later connecting to their life. Saying "Grey Wind was stabbed in Jon's dream, then Jon was stabbed!" is not a connection. Bran and Rickon saw Eddard's beheading. They both still have their heads. If you want to say "Jon saw stabbing, got stabbed," you'll need to demonstrate that Jon often has prophetic dreams regarding his own life.

The series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire." Not every instance of ice and fire connects to that title. "Winterfell has the word winter, which is cold and associated with ice; Dragonstone has word dragon, which is fire made flesh; therefore, the song is about Eddard and Stannis." "Eddard's sword is named Ice. That must be titular weapon. But GRRM is clever, so he didn't name the other titular sword fire, he named it Lightbringer, which fire is. That clever GRRM!" I could go on. Don't use the title of the series to justify a point. It is just as likely that the title refers to the messed up seasons as it is that it refers to any other possible pairing of vague-reference-to-ice and vague-reference-to-fire.

That the arrow wound requires a crutch is not a metaphor. It requires a crutch because the wound was deep. Eddard also had crutches after his battle with Jaime, because his leg was injured. The reason Ygritte would shoot at him is that she's angry and betrayed, not that he's a member of the NW or a bastard of Winterfell. If she was to have shot at him in that moment for either of those reasons, she could have killed him north of the Wall many more times. She shoots her arrow because she's angry with him in that moment. He betrayed her. He betrayed her love. Further, she recognized that in spite of whatever feelings she may have for him, and him her, the lives of the Wildling away team depended on stopping Jon Snow from reaching Castle Black. Whether she shot at him or the horse is irrelevant. She was trying to stop him from informing the NW of her group and mission.

Yes, I missed the fact that the direwolves have eyes associated with the COTF. I don't see how that's relevant to Jon shooting Ygritte. You should remove anything that doesn't support your thesis from the OP. If this is somehow important to Jon shooting Ygritte, make the point explicit. If this is just a cool tidbit you noticed, remove it from the OP. You want to make the strongest case you possibly can, especially since you're trying to change common opinion. Make the case simply without extraneous comments.

No, I'm not using grammar to dispute your point. I'm using context. Have you seen those folks who say "Coldhands is a former Brandon Stark" based on the line "Your monster, Brandon Stark"? The context is that they're talking about Bloodraven, not Coldhands, so it cannot possibly be read as "Your monster, who is named Brandon Stark." Context is important. She's saying "those you killed" because that's the natural way to refer to the dead wildlings at that moment. It would be strange for anyone to say "You should burn those who've died" when it's plain they didn't just die, they were killed. It isn't "You burn those you personally kill." There's no justifiable grounds for interpreting the text that way. Further, Ygritte would want to be burned not by Jon Snow but because that was the way of her people. Yes, she may have also wanted Jon to care for her body when she died, but that's a separate desire from wanting to be cremated.

On top of all that, you still have not demonstrated that anyone has even been cursed by kinslaying, which seems to be the most important part of this theory because it could have a real bearing on the story. MtnLion makes the additional (correct) point that life traditionally doesn't begin until the first breath. You'll have to not only show that the kinslaying curse is real, but that it can apply to killing a fetus.

Good luck on your next revision.

[theREALjonsnow]

Don't mock me. I didn't mock you. Return me that courtesy at least. I offered you constructive criticism. You did not present your case well. For the most part, you offered quotes and said, "Isn't it obvious?" The other posters indicate that I was not the only one who didn't make the connections you desired to make (especially regarding the eyes of the COTF).

The Jon Snow Story does not center around kinslaying and kingslaying. Robert Baratheon, while a blood relative of Rhaegar, is not a kinslayer. No one ever says he is or even wonders if he might be. Rhaegar wasn't even king, not for a single moment, because Aerys was still alive when Rhaegar was killed. Please demonstrate who the kinslayers and kingslayers are in Jon's story.

You make a good statement here: "the empty quiver means he was using more arrows than his own, not just grey goose" (I paraphrase). That's relevant enough to your case. Include that in your OP. This kind of statement needs to be included with every quote you offer.

Eddard saying that running away gets a man's bloodlust up is irrelevant. Jon ran away, getting Ygritte's bloodlust up, not the other way around.

Regarding pregnancy, I went back and read the Gendel story. There's no indication that he, nor his children, are immortal, just that his descendants live on in the cave. Ygritte is suggesting that since Gendel made a life in the caves away from the world, they can too. You'll have to connect the dots for us on this one. How is it an allegory? How is Ygritte a prophet princess? Her telling Jon that he knows nothing is rarely followed by pearls of wisdom. It's just her teasing. If there's something deeper, show it.

Lots of people get stabbed, and lots of dreams are had without it later connecting to their life. Saying "Grey Wind was stabbed in Jon's dream, then Jon was stabbed!" is not a connection. Bran and Rickon saw Eddard's beheading. They both still have their heads. If you want to say "Jon saw stabbing, got stabbed," you'll need to demonstrate that Jon often has prophetic dreams regarding his own life.

The series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire." Not every instance of ice and fire connects to that title. "Winterfell has the word winter, which is cold and associated with ice; Dragonstone has word dragon, which is fire made flesh; therefore, the song is about Eddard and Stannis." "Eddard's sword is named Ice. That must be titular weapon. But GRRM is clever, so he didn't name the other titular sword fire, he named it Lightbringer, which fire is. That clever GRRM!" I could go on. Don't use the title of the series to justify a point. It is just as likely that the title refers to the messed up seasons as it is that it refers to any other possible pairing of vague-reference-to-ice and vague-reference-to-fire.

That the arrow wound requires a crutch is not a metaphor. It requires a crutch because the wound was deep. Eddard also had crutches after his battle with Jaime, because his leg was injured. The reason Ygritte would shoot at him is that she's angry and betrayed, not that he's a member of the NW or a bastard of Winterfell. If she was to have shot at him in that moment for either of those reasons, she could have killed him north of the Wall many more times. She shoots her arrow because she's angry with him in that moment. He betrayed her. He betrayed her love. Further, she recognized that in spite of whatever feelings she may have for him, and him her, the lives of the Wildling away team depended on stopping Jon Snow from reaching Castle Black. Whether she shot at him or the horse is irrelevant. She was trying to stop him from informing the NW of her group and mission.

Yes, I missed the fact that the direwolves have eyes associated with the COTF. I don't see how that's relevant to Jon shooting Ygritte. You should remove anything that doesn't support your thesis from the OP. If this is somehow important to Jon shooting Ygritte, make the point explicit. If this is just a cool tidbit you noticed, remove it from the OP. You want to make the strongest case you possibly can, especially since you're trying to change common opinion. Make the case simply without extraneous comments.

No, I'm not using grammar to dispute your point. I'm using context. Have you seen those folks who say "Coldhands is a former Brandon Stark" based on the line "Your monster, Brandon Stark"? The context is that they're talking about Bloodraven, not Coldhands, so it cannot possibly be read as "Your monster, who is named Brandon Stark." Context is important. She's saying "those you killed" because that's the natural way to refer to the dead wildlings at that moment. It would be strange for anyone to say "You should burn those who've died" when it's plain they didn't just die, they were killed. It isn't "You burn those you personally kill." There's no justifiable grounds for interpreting the text that way. Further, Ygritte would want to be burned not by Jon Snow but because that was the way of her people. Yes, she may have also wanted Jon to care for her body when she died, but that's a separate desire from wanting to be cremated.

On top of all that, you still have not demonstrated that anyone has even been cursed by kinslaying, which seems to be the most important part of this theory because it could have a real bearing on the story. MtnLion makes the additional (correct) point that life traditionally doesn't begin until the first breath. You'll have to not only show that the kinslaying curse is real, but that it can apply to killing a fetus.

Good luck on your next revision.

No Luck will be needed, as TRJS aka the bastard o' winterfell aka Lord Snow aka the return of the 13th Lord Commander is The King of Winter and Night. everybody believes he knows nothing...

" As he slid the blade back out and wiped it on the dead man, he looked at Arya. That's where the heart is, girl. That's how you kill a man." SOS Arya 54

you asked me not to take offense and I didn't. Hence the smiley face at the end of my post. Also at the beginning i asked you if you would please not take offense to my explaining it to you, as you previously stated things can be misinterpreted over the internet and that is what I think happened here...

also those you mentioned Rhaegar, Robby B, Headless Ned, Stan always frowns, Bran the broken, Little Ricky, the girl kissed by fire, Coldhands (Benjen), are all connected six degrees of Kevin Bacon style to whom? the main character of the novels. His story will always be at the forefront of what is going on. So every kingslaying & kinslaying that takes place in a song of ice and fire is in someway affecting him... and two others.

if you disagree with my points or facts or what I personally interpret as metaphors and symbols than alas I can't help you my good Ser...

" Where they your kin? he asked her quietly. No more than you are, she said. He frowned... Me? What do you mean? You said you were the Bastard of Winterfell. I am. Who was your mother? Some women. Most of them are, he said. Some one had said that to him once. He did not remember who..." COK Jon 51

" The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says... though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and the boy grew up to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is... you have Bael's blood in you, same as me. It never happened, Jon Snow said." COK Jon 51

she then goes on to tell him about what happened 30 years later when a king beyond the wall came back and the son slew his father and then his mother jumped from a tower and shortly thereafter his skin was turned in too a cloak... all of this happened only 100-130 years ago, which is why she is surprised he doesn't know the story/song...

basically the Young Lord Jon Stark in the story took the bastard name Snow ( or maybe he didn't, this story sounds kinda one sided if you know what i mean), when he found out his father was Sygerrik of Skagos. So when Ygritte asks him why he doesn't know this song, who his mother was, etc. etc. this is important back story and future predictions of the life they will share. Short and sweet just like R+L... cause this is the song of fire and ice.

The song that made the wolf maid sniffle was the song o' the winter rose. Bael the Bard the Deceiver of Skagos King-Beyond-the-Wall and His Bastard Son Jon Stark Lord of Winterfell. thus Lyanna knew her son must be named Jon Snow the Bastard of Winterfell due to the ptwp prophecy according to the dragonprince...

also the you know nothing, also known as " mocking " starts here because she assumes he doesn't know his true past/history as he is blinded by being the Evil Jon Snow, yet she sees more in him that the bastard o' winterfell returned... she sees greatness and thus becomes his Nissa Nissa.

you asked me to explain the kinslaying kingslaying aspect to Jon Snow and I did using the first story/interaction between our two star crossed lovers...

valar Morgulis :devil: but first they will live...

[theREALjonsnow]

I think that ultimately this doesn't matter...

John will always feel complicit for her death, regardless of the fact that it was his actual arrow that killed her. He was the one who brought her to the wall to die. He didn't turn away her love so she followed him to the other side. He didn't stay with her in the cave forever. He didn't kill the old man and betrayed the wildlings. He went to warn the wall. He prepared the wall for assault. All of his actions made sure Ygritte died there and then. Or this is what he will always think.

I'm not convinced by your OP, but let say you are correct. Or more evidence is uncovered to support your idea. How will John ever now? How will we - the readers - ever know? So if Ygritte was pregnant and John's arrows killed her, I just don't see any literary devices that can convey this information to John. Finding out that she may have been pregnant may be possible, though I don't see Ygritte as the type of spearwife who would confide this personal information unto other members of their company. As to the fact of which arrow shot Ygritte: the battle was very fast. I doubt anybody paid attention to the arrows John shot or who exactly shot Ygritte. Maybe the old Gods will come to the scene with a list of acursed kinslayers, but to me this doesn't seem like the way GRRM works. I don't believe this information will reach John. If John never knows, his actions and motivations will not be changed. It will not alter is arc. So I think ultimately, it doesn't matter.

If you enjoy the parallels and added character dept that this theory brings about, then you should go ahead and believe it. I have done the same about many beloved fictional characters. Invented things that ultimately do not matter but just suit the character and make them more real in my mind. They make books so much better!

thanks for you post. The only way I see my theory being proven correct is under the following circumstances..

1. he has been stabbed numerous times by his Black Brothers

2. he is placed below the Wall to preserve him while Melisandre works up a scheme to bring him back...

3. during this time Bran tells him everything that... ahem pardon the pun, he "does not know ." about stark history and his own. This would include the scene at Castle Black and Jon's true sin/curse

yep the whole reason i developed this theory is so that his arc would match Dany/Drogo and Tyrion/Shae. I like my main characters to share in the glory/pain

[DrunkSister]

I don't know how you are going to square you ideas with the deliberate shooting of Jon by Ygritte in the screenplay. Of course we still have the battle of Castle Black to come, in the screenplay, so Ygritte's death is a bit of time away. Then we would come down to determining the point at which a fetus becomes and entity, and thus kin. Historically, a fetus is not a seperate individual until it draws the first breath of life (thus earning the right to draw its last breath).

Actually, the moment the foetus becomes an individual is more relative than that, there are cultural differences. In Ancient Rome a baby was not recognized as kin until pater familias ordered it lifted off the ground, if he did not the baby would be exposed; AFAIR Spartans did the physical examination and then exposed the defective children; I have also read that in British Colonies in America foetus was considered alive when it started kicking (and from that point on abortion was illegal). So, three examples of life as an individual in the society not starting with first drawing of breath.

In-story we have an example from Old Nan where she tells that during the long night women choked their children - I will assume that the kin-slaying clause was not invoked because Old Nan is silent on it and she does point it out in the Rat King tale.

Then we have Hoster Tully giving tansy tea to Lysa and not fearing that gods would punish him, and Cersei aborting the pregnancy where Robert was father.

Which means that Jon is most certainly not a kin-slayer on the account of killing pregnant Ygritte.

Though I congratulate the OP of noticing the fact that he used different quivers and that therefore it is not impossible that he is the one who shot her. It has never occurred to me.

[MtnLion]

Which means that Jon is most certainly not a kin-slayer on the account of killing pregnant Ygritte.

I don't think that we have any evidence, whotsoever that Ygritte was pregnant. My objection was that even should she have been pregnant, the fetus was not an individual, and thus not a kin.

[theREALjonsnow]

yet ygritte tell's jon they have the same " blood " before their first sexual encounter...

just food for thought...

[The Shadow Wolf]

Jon is not a petty person. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't shoot Ygritte on purpose just because she shot him and there is no evidence that Ygritte was pregnant.

[theREALjonsnow]

Jon is not a petty person. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't shoot Ygritte on purpose just because she shot him and there is no evidence that Ygritte was pregnant.

really?

tell me which book has a Ygritte point of view and i will admit you are correct...

[Shortspear Rick]

really?

tell me which book has a Ygritte point of view and i will admit you are correct...

He says that there is no evidence and he's right. There is no evidence that she's pregnant, only your conjecture. Show us an Ygritte POV where she knows she's pregnant and we might have reason to believe she was. Otherwise, there is no reason to assume it.