Jon killed Ygritte: arrow fletching means nothing

[redriver]

It's a headache tablet.This has been pointed to you before but your style of writing is off-putting,the connections you make to your quotes are tenuous at best,and your conclusions,such as they are,are either crackpot or demonstrably wrong.

ETA "Six degrees of Kevin Bacon" wtf are you on about?

[wolfmaid7]

The Song o' the Winter Rose & the Bastard of Winterfell reborn: The COTF marriage of The Sad Singing Prince of Dragonstone and The Laughing Direwolf Warrior-princess of Winterfell and the birth of the cursed life of the King of Winter and Night

a work in progress refrain from responding please...

• “ The thought made his belly heave again. Sam bent over the gunwale and retched, but not into the wind. He had gone to the right this time. He was getting good at retching. Or so he thought, until Blackbird left the land behind and struck east across the bay for the shore of Skagos.” AFFC Samwell

• “ Skagos meant , stone, in the Old Tongue. The Skagosi named themselves the stoneborn, but their fellow northmen called them Skaggs and liked them little. Only a hundred years ago Skagos had risen in rebellion. Their revolt had taken years to quell and claimed the life of the Lord of Winterfell and hundreds of his sworn swords.” AFFC Samwell

I start my theory with this quote as it is vital to understanding the Song o' the Winter Rose. I believe that it is the true history from around 100 to 130 years ago. Thus when Lyanna hears about Jon Snow the first time, she thinks it is the saddest song ever sung.

When Rhaegar tells her it happened recently she understands why they have to come together. The must give birth to the boy who will be named Jon Snow. He is the Lord Commander of some mystical army of White Walkers as King of Winter and Night.

Blackbird is a reference to Bloodraven being in control/watching/making sure the journey of Sam & Aemon as they cross the sea to Oldtown is done in safety...

Also we can assume that anything Samwell says at this point in a feast for crows is gospel as a reliable narrator, notice that right before this information is provided we have Samwell throwing up on the boat, and hears his father calling him craven. He is on a ship with the oldest living dragon (besides BR) on orders from the last lord commander to go the get his chain, sounds more like a slayer to me. Kind of significant event so we should pay close attention to what GRRM is throwing at us, and look for easter eggs.

Also I know so people might dismiss it's importance but we have a translation provided. The word for Stone in the Old tongue spoken by giants and first men alike is Skagos. Thus the island of Skagos has yet to change it's name since the founding of ancient westeros. I ask myself why this nation has yet to convert to the Common Tongue. Why isn't Skagos called Stone Island? because the people living on it won't allow that to happen.

Thus when he says that 100 years ago a rebellion of Skaggosans that had taken years to quell, must be the same story Ygritte tells to Jon the first time she meets him. That is why when she asks him.

Who was your mother? if she didn't tell you this story it was our recent shared history and we outsmarted and outricked you and your evil bastard great greatgrandfather killed his father she is hiding something from you. His mother was Lyanna Stark and learned of the song from Rhaegar right before her eventual demise.

The basis at his point of my theory is that this anonymous event Sam mentions that it took place 100 to 130 years ago and was wiped from the history of the North and the Starks much in the way the Night King's name was wiped from the memory of man.

I know it is a leap but as I further explain the importance and connections to my quotes it is something that can be drawn from the text with a proper understanding.

Thus the basis of my theory starts with understanding how Jon Snow the Bastard of Winterfell , the evil name Ygritte flinches too, is the same person as the Young Lord Stark in her story and the Song o' the Winter Rose is the song of him killing his father the King-Beyond-the-Wall cursing him as a kinslayer and kingslayer...

The Evil Name Ned promises Lyanna that her son will have is due to Rhaegar singing her the sad recent truth o' the Winter Rose. It is a song not sung south of the Wall...

• “ Some songs said the Skaggs were cannibals; supposedly their warriors ate the hearts and livers of the men they slew… Daeron knew the songs well. When the bleak grey peaks of Skagos rose up from the sea, he joined Sam at Blackbird’s prow, and said, It the gods are good, we may catch glimpse of a unicorn.” AFFC Samwell

Haha this is a joke for the astute reader in my opinion. Daeron the Bard of the Night's Watch is a call back to Aemon's brother Daeron the Drunken who was know for having prophetic dreams. Thus the songs he sings have a connection in a child of the forest sense to understanding the nature of the people from Skagos. a glimpse of a unicorn is a way of saying, hey guys pay attention to this recently provided info and use it for you understanding of the back story!

• " Promise me Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. Gods save me, Ned wept. I am going mad. The gods did not deign to answer." GOT Eddard 58

so the promise was that Ned would name him Jon and claim him as his bastard. This would ensure that he would grow up with the difficulty of being seen a lesser member of house stark and by it's very nature would keep him from straying from the path the " gods " have chosen for him.

Is it a simple way of understanding the promise, yes. But I am a firm believer in Occam's Razor. That is why used a limited number of quotes to tell the entire story as I see it. Just an opinion. I think at the beginning he would have been so angry that about the circumstances that lead to their father and brother being killed which started from a simple misunderstanding at a false spring tourney.

Eddard Stark would want to sit Jon Targaryen on the Iron Throne as the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms as revenge for what took place but Lyanna tells him no. Jon Snow has a more important future than a petty revenge. His revenge is the cold that comes from the Lands of Always Winter... The Song o' the Winter Rose.

also I think Ned remembering that she loved the smell of winter roses is important. In my opinion it implies she did not know Song o' The Winter Rose...

• “ Do you have a name? Ygrittte. Her hand rubed at her throat and came away bloody. She stared at the wetness. Sheathing his dirk, he wrenched Longclaw free from the body of the man he killed. You are my captive Ygritte. I gave you my name. I’m Jon Snow. She flinched. An evil name. A bastard name, he said.” COK Jon

I am going to avoid repeating myself. I believe the importance of this quote is to show that Jon has spared her life, this is shown by the blood at her neck. He pulls his Valryian sword from the dead body of her husband Orell the Eagle Warg thus claiming her for himself in the ancient wildling traditon. He tells her his name and she reacts, because it is a cursed name.

• “ She told me Mance would take me, if I ran with her. She told you true. She even clamied we were kin. She told me a story… of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye and for their women as well. You knew him? We all knew him. His voice was sad. They were friends as well as brothers, Jon realized, and now they are sworn foes.” COK Jon

now this is going to sound crackpot. But i think from this quote we can verify that Mance is from Skagos and so is Ygritte. Can we also draw the conclusion that Mance is somehow related to Ygritte? Yes i think we can. Notice after this information is provided how Jon states Halfhand and the Mance Rayder were friends as well as brothers and now they are sworn foes.

I make a connection once again to the ancient relationship between Night King and King Beyond The Wall and King of Winterfell. Those three must have been friends, brothers, and sworn foes. So the info he provides can be used to make leaps in the text, in my opinion. Also i think we can assume that Halfhand was serving under orders of Mance to test him by trial of his actions? possible.

But what must be understood is that the Song o' the Winter Rose is the favorite tune of our King Beyond the Wall while he served under the Night's Watch...

• “ I remember, said Jon with startled laugh. A young black brother on the wall walk, yes… You swore not to tell. And kept my vow. That one at least.” SOS Jon

This is quote references the first time that Jon Snow and Mance Rayder ever came face to face. Jon surprisingly is able to recall this encounter. Also notice the strange nature of Mance telling Jon that he kept the promise about attacking people with snowballs. Then he obviously recalls his breaking the vow of the Night's Watch. The real question to ask is why?

also this is the first time we know Mance visited Winterfell.

Also this proves that Mance was still in the Watch and yet to break his vows while Jon was growing up and playing with his brother Robb. This was also the first known chance we know of for look for Horn of Winter or whatever else is in the crypts...

• " Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his house wrought in rubies on his breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him." GOT Eddard 58

Rhaegar was unable to be touched that day because the Mance Rayder had given him special red silk from Asshai. It is the same used in The Mance's Night Watch Cloak. The reason he was able to beat Brandon Stark first. Also at this point the Mance knows the Dragonprince must win the tourney of false spring to impress the Wolfmaiden into falling in love.

• “ She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treaseure she had and her gift to me….” COK Jon

Notice that this red silk was given to the Mance by somebody ( i think it must be something to do with Bael the Bard Deceiver of Skagos King Beyond the Wall and his son Young Lord Stark.) So somewhere this tale about putting red is his cloak and refusing to take it out caused him to break his vows. Not sure the relevance other than, this was the same magic silk that helped Rhaegar win the Tourney.

• “ I remember. And did you see where I was seated, Mance? He leaned forward. Did you see where they put the bastard? Mance Rayder looked at Jon’s face for a long moment. I think we had best find you a new cloak. The king said, holding out his hand.” COK Jon

the important thing to gain from this quote is the reference to Jon Snow calling himself the Bastard. As this is the Mance Rayder's favorite song he is immediately impressed by this. What is not known is if he specifically placed Ygritte and Orell so that Jon would encounter them. Also why or how Ygritte came into know this song is an important question to ask as well. Also the underlined part is a calling back to the same thing Mance did. Change his cloak over red silk from Asshai.

• “ Where they your kin? He asked her quietly. The two we killed? No more than you are. Me? He frowned. What do you mean? You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterefell. I am. Who was your mother? Some women., most of them are. Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.” COK Jon

so yea each quote is getting its own individual attention.

So lets continue to keep in mind The Song o' the Winter Rose was sung by the Mance as he returned from all his ranging's when he served during the Night's Watch according to Halfhand.

Why then has Ygritte been placed where she is? Did she really hear the tale from her mother, or as a natural born deceiver, was the song sung by her father? Also note the reference to Tyrion which might be an indication that it is an easter egg provided by GRRM that we need to pay attention to. Tyrion is busy in KL so bringing him up serves a purpose...

yep people we are about to go deep down the rabbit hole...

• “ A bastard can have honor too, Jon said. I am ready to swear your oath. You are a boy of fourteen, Benjen said. Not a man not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up. I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly. You might, if you knew what it meant, Benjen said. If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son. Jon felt anger inside him. I’m not your son! Benjen Stark stood up. More’s the pity. He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you fell. Jon trembled . I will never father a bastard, he said carefully. Never! He spat it like venom” GOT Jon

I have taken a brief interlude to give insight on the cursed nature of the name Jon Snow. This quote is from Game of Thrones which was the first of the novels to come out in 1996. So Jon killing his pregnant wife seems to have been in the works back then...

The first underline is to draw importance that Jon is speaking about himself but he hidden reference is speaking to what his name represents.

Next we have advice given by the honorable Benjen which basically suggests that you get laid before joining the Black Brothers. Also it can be assumed that he knows Jon's true parentage as told to him by Quiet Wolf.

Finally we have the bold prediction that ties into my theory Jon Snow killed his spearwife Ygritte, she was going to father his bastard.

• “ Boy, a voice called out to him. Jon turned. Tyrion Lannister was sitting on the ledge above the door to the great hall , looking for all the world like a gargoyle. The dwarf grinned down at him. Is that animal a wolf? A dire wolf , Jon said. His name is Ghost.” GOT Jon

So the reason I have given this is to remind that us the reason Jon Targaryen takes advice from Tyrion Targaryen is due to his being Rhaegar's brother. Thus when Jon says his name is Ghost he is speaking of himself or his father spirit that is being carried on through his noble journey through life. Also this is the referenced for our story in which Ygritte is explaining Bael the Bard so is needed to explain back story.

• “ What do you know about being a bastard? All dwarfs are bastards in their fathers eyes… I don’t even know who my mother was, Jon said. Some women , no doubt. Most of them are. He favored Jon with a rueful grin. Remember this boy. All dwarfs may be bastards yet not all bastards need be dwarfs. An with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.” GOT Jon

This quote needs a direct connection to the Song o' the Winter Rose to be fully understood.

The bastard being spoken metaphorically is the Evil Young Lord Stark in Ygrittes tale.

Tyrion giving Jon ammo to fire at Ygritte is also important. Basically telling him he need not be the Evil Bastard of Winterfell in her version of the story. He can be a noble stark and member of the night' watch.

Also this is the first GRRM quote that easter egg's A+J=T

• “ And she never sung you the sung o’ the winter rose?... Bael the Bard made it, said Ygritte. He was King-Beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk sing his songs, but might be you don’t sing them in the south. Winterfell’s not south, Jon objected. Yes it is. Everything below the Wall’s south to us. He had never heard it that way. I suppose it’s all in where you are standing. Aye, Ygritte agreed. I always is.” COK Jon

At this point we are under the assumption that this event took place in the recent past. Only 100 to 130 years ago, so Ygritte's question of she never sung o' the winter rose has merit in its own right. Also if the event took place in the recent past why is it Jon Snow who has been trained by Maester Luwin and told tales by Old Nan never heard it? This is the biggest mystery in the book for a reason...

Also Ygritte being from Skagos must be considered at this point. How else did she come by the Mance's old Night's Watch tune that isn't sung south of the wall for some reason?

Also if the song is common among " all " wildlings why hasn't it showed up at somepoint in Winterfell's past?

all questions that don't yet have answers in GRRM's books...

• “ I want to hear this tale of yours. Might be you won’t like it much. I’ll hear it all the same. Brave Black Crow, she mocked.” COK Jon

My interpretation of the text at this point only lead me to get crackpot on everything.

Why does she say he would not like the same song his father used to make his tough Arya like mother cry?

and once again how did she come by Mance's personal ranging tune...

" The Dragon Prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. And a Black Brother spoke asking knights to join the Night’s Watch." COK Bran 24

“ The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-Beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford… and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword. So the son slew the father instead, said Jon. Aye, she said, but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing.” COK Jon

“ on a rock above them , the eagle flapped its wings and split the air with a scream of fury. The bird hates, you Jon Snow, said Ygritte. And well he might. He was a man, before you killed him. I did not know, said Jon truthfully, trying to remember the face of the man he had slain in the pass. You told me Mance would take me. And he will, Ygritte said.” COK Jon

Do you have a name? Ygritte answered for him, His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark’s blood, of Winterfell… He is a warg, said the Lord of Bones, and a crow I like him not. A warg he may be, Ygritte said, but that has never frightened us.” COK Jon

“ The wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the new Gift… Bael the Bard, said Jon, remembering the tale Ygritte told him in the Frostfangs, the night he’d almost killed her.” SOS Jon

“ Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael’s exploits inspired mine own… but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead? No, said Jon.” SOS Jon

“ and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means deceiver in the Old Tongue.” COK Jon

" The Maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger. and on Skagos...well, only heart trees see half of what they do on Skagos." ADWD Reek

" the man you mistook for me is Styr, Magnar of Thenn. Magnar means " lord" in the Old Tongue." SOS Jon

" the Magnar's a lord on Skagos, Noye said. There were Skagossons at Eastwatch when I first came to the Wall, I remember hearing them talk of him. jon was using the word in its older sense, I think, Maseter Aemon said, not as a family name but as a title. It derives from the Old Tongue. It means lord, Jon agreed. Styr is the Magnar of some place called Thenn. " SOS Jon

“ Your Bael as a liar, he told her, certain now. No, Ygritte said, but a bard’s truth is different that yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it. She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep.” COK Jon

" Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish Princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark." GOT Eddard 58

" Did you know my brother Rhaegar well? It was said no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar truly, said Whitebeard. But i did have the pleasure of seeing him tourney though, and often heard him play the harp with its silver strings." SOS Dany 8

" Does this castle have a name? he asked quietly when she came to him. Oldstones, all the small folk called it when i was a girl, but no doubt it had some other name when it was still a hall of kings. She had camped her with her father, on their way to Seagard. Petyr was with us too... There is a song, he remembered. Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair. We are all just songs in the end if we are lucky son. She had played at being Jenny that day, had even had flowers in her hair and Petyr pretended to be her Prince of Dragonflies." SOS Catelyn 45

" Why did the wed if they did not love each other? Your grandshire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince who was promised would be born of their line. A woods witch? She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest. What became of her? Summerhall. the word was fraught with doom." ADWD Dany 23

" As you wish, said Whitbeard. As a young boy, the prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. I will require a sword and armor. It seems i must be a warrior." SOS Dany 8

" And yet Sumerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the Knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and star, and whenever he came back he would have a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved." SOS Dany 42

" I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy. You make him sound sour, dany protested. Not sour, no but... there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense... of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days." SOS Dany 42

" You cannot hide from me child. Come closer now. Cold fingers walked down Arya's neck. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she reminded herself. She stood and approached the fire warily... I see you, she whispered. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the Lord that smelled of death... She began to sob, her little body shaking. You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours, Begone from here, dark heart. Begone! " SOS Arya 43

" Beside the embers of the campfire she was Tom Sevenstrings talking to a tiny little women, a foot shorter that Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled black cane. Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground. When the wind gusted it blew about her head in a fine cloud. her flesh was whiter, the color of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red. The olds gods stir and wont let me sleep, she said." SOS Arya 22

All this i dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams? And then she said to Tom Sevenstrings, I will have my song or i will have you gone. So the singer played for her, so soft and sad..." SOS Arya 22

" They had come back to High Heart. Ghost's she remembered, High Heart is haunted. Arya spied the small pale shape creeping behind the horses, thin white hair flying wild as she leaned upon a gnarled cane. The woman could not have been more than three feet tall. The firelight made her eyes gleam as red as the eyes of Jon's wolf. He was a ghost too..." SOS Arya

" The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says... though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and the boy grew up to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is... you have Bael's blood in you, same as me. It never happened, Jon Snow said." COK Jon 51

I know you said this is a work in progress,but i'll stop you and say you need to go back to the drawing board hun.I started highlighting in red places where i have no idea "what connections" your making and in black speculation that's not based on fact,it's what you think happened.There is not even text that even infers what you're saying.

I read this and i say with honesty i still have no idea what you are trying to say.So you're saying the son born to the maid in WF's name was Jon Snow,so Lyanna made Ned promise to name the son Jon Snow because Rheagar told her the story of Bael the Bard a tale she never heard of because why???

[Shortspear Rick]

What redriver and wolfmaid7 said. theREALjonsnow, you're extrapolating things from the quotes you give that have absolutely no merit. I couldn't even make it halfway through your giant unfinished post because pretty much everything you imply is made up. From getting Dareon confused with Daeron to claiming that the text verifies Mance and Ygritte are from Skagos when not a single thing from that quote would lead one to even come to that conclusion, you're not really convincing anyone of anything and making things even more confusing. At least many "crackpot" theories make connections to the text that might lead someone to consider it. All you're doing is making something up, attributing it to text that has nothing to do with it and then acting like everyone else is stupider than you because you can connect the imaginary dots in your head and we can't.

[Black Crow]

yep the whole reason i developed this theory is so that his arc would match Dany/Drogo and Tyrion/Shae. I like my main characters to share in the glory/pain

This, I fear encapsulates the problem.

No matter how passionately you obviously feel about the story and its depth and complexity GRRM is writing the Song of Ice and Fire, not you.

[Sarah Lannister]

There was a second bowman...Sam killed Ygritte. Interfering with a bromance can have lethal consequences.

[theREALjonsnow]

I know you said this is a work in progress,but i'll stop you and say you need to go back to the drawing board hun.I started highlighting in red places where i have no idea "what connections" your making and in black speculation that's not based on fact,it's what you think happened.There is not even text that even infers what you're saying.

I read this and i say with honesty i still have no idea what you are trying to say.So you're saying the son born to the maid in WF's name was Jon Snow,so Lyanna made Ned promise to name the son Jon Snow because Rheagar told her the story of Bael the Bard a tale she never heard of because why???

yes wolf maid that is exactly what I am saying!

The basis at this point of my theory is that this anonymous event Sam mentions that it took place 100 to 130 years ago and was wiped from the history of the North and the Starks much in the way the Night King's name was wiped from the memory of man.

I know it is a leap but as I further explain the importance and connections to my quotes it is something that can be drawn from the text with a proper understanding.

Thus the basis of my theory starts with understanding how Jon Snow the Bastard of Winterfell , the evil name Ygritte flinches too, is the same person as the Young Lord Stark in her story and the Song o' the Winter Rose is the song of him killing his father the King-Beyond-the-Wall cursing him as a kinslayer and kingslayer...

The Evil Name Ned promises Lyanna that her son will have is due to Rhaegar singing her the sad recent truth o' the Winter Rose. It is a song not sung south of the Wall...

The children of the forest have chosen Jon Snow as their champion to defend them against the dragons and the summer that never ends.

right after the red quotes you read comes these words. like i said it wasn't done yet yall...

[theREALjonsnow]

It's a headache tablet.This has been pointed to you before but your style of writing is off-putting,the connections you make to your quotes are tenuous at best,and your conclusions,such as they are,are either crackpot or demonstrably wrong.

ETA "Six degrees of Kevin Bacon" wtf are you on about?

wow man way to be constructive but it's better than half the crap you come up with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon

edit: everyone's story (quotes i provide) are connected back to explaining in some way the evil name Jon Snow.

the only people that know the song o' the winter rose are

1. Bael the Bard

2. Abel the Bard also known as Mance Rayder

3. Rhaegar

4. Lyanna

5.Jon Snow

6. Ygritte

7. Qhorin Halfhand

8. the ghost of High Heart

if you put all these people's quotes and descriptions together then a full picture becomes available...

if you can provide quotes that anybody else knows or speaks about this song go ahead and be my guest.

that is what i mean

[theREALjonsnow]

This, I fear encapsulates the problem.

No matter how passionately you obviously feel about the story and its depth and complexity GRRM is writing the Song of Ice and Fire, not you.

let me ask you question Black Crow... when is the last time you read these books from start to finish without posting on this fan forum?

I'd venture a guess that it's been many a years so unless you are GRRM himself get off your high horse...

[theREALjonsnow]

What redriver and wolfmaid7 said. theREALjonsnow, you're extrapolating things from the quotes you give that have absolutely no merit. I couldn't even make it halfway through your giant unfinished post because pretty much everything you imply is made up. From getting Dareon confused with Daeron to claiming that the text verifies Mance and Ygritte are from Skagos when not a single thing from that quote would lead one to even come to that conclusion, you're not really convincing anyone of anything and making things even more confusing. At least many "crackpot" theories make connections to the text that might lead someone to consider it. All you're doing is making something up, attributing it to text that has nothing to do with it and then acting like everyone else is stupider than you because you can connect the imaginary dots in your head and we can't.

ha ha ha :drunk:

[redriver]

wow man way to be constructive but it's better than half the crap you come up with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon

edit: everyone's story (quotes i provide) are connected back to explaining in some way the evil name Jon Snow.

the only people that know the song o' the winter rose are

1. Bael the Bard

2. Abel the Bard also known as Mance Rayder

3. Rhaegar

4. Lyanna

5.Jon Snow

6. Ygritte

7. Qhorin Halfhand

8. the ghost of High Heart

if you put all these people's quotes and descriptions together then a full picture becomes available...

if you can provide quotes that anybody else knows or speaks about this song go ahead and be my guest.

that is what i mean

Oh I see.Which particular posts/threads were you referring to?Please feel free to critique them in situ.

[Shortspear Rick]

It's clear that none of what we say will reach this guy. He creates fan fiction, quotes texts and makes up absurd meanings that no one else would gather from the text and refuses to address criticisms about his ideas other than to complain that we just don't get it.

Dude, many of us have read the books multiple times. You're the one coming off as high and mighty because you feel like you know answers and things that no one else does. Do you know why you're the only person to figure this stuff out? Because you're making it all up to fit with a fantasy in your head. You are utterly delusional and I've seen kids in elementary school with a better concept of logic, reasoning and reading comprehension. With every response you make, you make your argument look more contrived and flimsy and yourself appear more juvenile and ignorant. People have repeatedly told you how to better construct your arguments, ways to help us understand more and flaws in your arguments, however, you just throw it back in our faces or ignore it. Are you sure you're not theREALjoffreybaratheon?

[Jon Snow-Targaryen]

It's clear that none of what we say will reach this guy. He creates fan fiction, quotes texts and makes up absurd meanings that no one else would gather from the text and refuses to address criticisms about his ideas other than to complain that we just don't get it.

Dude, many of us have read the books multiple times. You're the one coming off as high and mighty because you feel like you know answers and things that no one else does. Do you know why you're the only person to figure this stuff out? Because you're making it all up to fit with a fantasy in your head. You are utterly delusional and I've seen kids in elementary school with a better concept of logic, reasoning and reading comprehension. With every response you make, you make your argument look more contrived and flimsy and yourself appear more juvenile and ignorant. People have repeatedly told you how to better construct your arguments, ways to help us understand more and flaws in your arguments, however, you just throw it back in our faces or ignore it. Are you sure you're not theREALjoffreybaratheon?

My feelings exactly, I lost all hopes of reason with him, after he said Black Crow doesn't know the books

[theREALjonsnow]

read Black Crow's first comment on this thread and then my response before you get involved

[theREALjonsnow]

What redriver and wolfmaid7 said. theREALjonsnow, you're extrapolating things from the quotes you give that have absolutely no merit. I couldn't even make it halfway through your giant unfinished post because pretty much everything you imply is made up. From getting Dareon confused with Daeron to claiming that the text verifies Mance and Ygritte are from Skagos when not a single thing from that quote would lead one to even come to that conclusion, you're not really convincing anyone of anything and making things even more confusing. At least many "crackpot" theories make connections to the text that might lead someone to consider it. All you're doing is making something up, attributing it to text that has nothing to do with it and then acting like everyone else is stupider than you because you can connect the imaginary dots in your head and we can't.

this coming from the guy who demanded that i prove jon got ygritte pregnant...

I notice you didn't respond to me giving you the quote where Longspear Ryk and Jon speak about the consequences of getting the girl kissed by fire pregnant before his meeting with the king beyond the wall and his eventual forcing by her to fufill a lie and she makes him a maid no more...

all of that happened before the first time he gave her is seed and if you want to say that its not important or does not show or hint at her becoming pregnant in the future that is entirely your right/opinion but i disagree...

[Jon Snow-Targaryen]

read Black Crow's first comment on this thread and then my response before you get involved

I did buddy i've read the whole thread I always do before I comment

.

the fact is the you make leaps and assumptions of what you think happened that are not in the text

[theREALjonsnow]

yet you have nothing to say about the Black Crow your expert of the website flip floping on a very important piece of info...

origin of nagga's 44 ribs which are of vital importance to understanding the grejoy/greyiron/greyking/drownedgod/ironborn/ironisles/history which is needed to explain why theon is present in chapter 1 of a game of thrones.

but i am somehow making leaps and bounds when i post quote after quote and give my opinions...

once again some of my " leaps " is not in the text for a reason... George R Martin is a fantastic writer and he wants you to be able to slowly piece all aspects of his Song of Ice and Fire together and make logical assumptions and fill in the blanks/grey areas with the needed pieces.

but whatever keep dog piling on the guy who created his own thread and keeps constantly getting people calling him uninformed, incorrect and misunderstanding the text...

yet nobody wants to provide quotes themselves to disprove what i say...

[dios_achilleus]

Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in...

yet nobody wants to provide quotes themselves to disprove what i say...

No one can prove that something doesn't exist. It's why debates about the Flying Spaghetti Monster's existence are futile. When we say that we accept the null hypothesis, that means that we start with everything the text says by a reliable narrator. If the text doesn't say it, we cannot assume it. Where the text makes certain hints, and more importantly, where it hints at the same thing in multiple places, we can infer something not explicitly stated. We cannot first assume anything else though. This is how argumentation works. If you're still in university, I suggest taking an introductory science class before you graduate as they'll cover the intricate details of this.

That said, we cannot provide text that says Ygritte wasn't pregnant, but the null hypothesis is that she wasn't, so we don't have to show that she wasn't. You have made the claim contrary to the null hypothesis, which means that the burden of evidence is on you. Talking about the birds and the bees is not the same as morning sickness.

[theREALjonsnow]

Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in...

No one can prove that something doesn't exist. It's why debates about the Flying Spaghetti Monster's existence are futile. When we say that we accept the null hypothesis, that means that we start with everything the text says by a reliable narrator. If the text doesn't say it, we cannot assume it. Where the text makes certain hints, and more importantly, where it hints at the same thing in multiple places, we can infer something not explicitly stated. We cannot first assume anything else though. This is how argumentation works. If you're still in university, I suggest taking an introductory science class before you graduate as they'll cover the intricate details of this.

That said, we cannot provide text that says Ygritte wasn't pregnant, but the null hypothesis is that she wasn't, so we don't have to show that she wasn't. You have made the claim contrary to the null hypothesis, which means that the burden of evidence is on you. Talking about the birds and the bees is not the same as morning sickness.

laugh out loud thanks for your daily post and recommendation that is going to be ignored... :drunk:

If your out of university I suggest you go back and take some more courses...

please by all means enlighten me and the people that view this thread as to why George R Martin gave us the conversation between Longspear Ryk and Jon Snow prior to meeting the King Beyond the Wall?

what purpose does speaking about a certain female's reproductive organs serve in regards to the text?

[Amoracchius]

Hey, remember when you said you'd try to tone things down?

Insulting people isn't going to convince anyone of your theories.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wow...

Ok, Jon and Ygritte had a lot of sex and she was pregnant. Then they climbed a wall and she lost the baby because she didn't know.

/end