Black Crow Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 yet you have nothing to say about the Black Crow your expert of the website flip floping on a very important piece of info... origin of nagga's 44 ribs which are of vital importance to understanding the grejoy/greyiron/greyking/drownedgod/ironborn/ironisles/history which is needed to explain why theon is present in chapter 1 of a game of thrones. but i am somehow making leaps and bounds when i post quote after quote and give my opinions... You are indeed and once again I will thank you to stop misrepresenting what I have said. I am of the opinion that Nagga's bones are indeed the remains of an ancient weirwood grove. I have not however flip-flopped to support or endorse in any shape or form your very imaginative but wholly unsupported fan-fiction concerning the ironborn. I do not believe that Nagga's bones being a weirwood remotely points to what you suggest. /end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I don't think that you have read the sample of The World of Ice and Fire. There are some revelations in that book that are going to blow you and this . . . away. http://www.randomhouse.biz/international/files/marketing/sellsheets/WORLDOFICEANDFIRE_Martin_EXPBOX.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 I agree, that sentence means exactly what it says; that there are 44 stone ribs rising up like tree trunks. The question that may arise from that though is whether they are indeed dragon (or whale thingey) bones or are man made - as in the ribs of a boat - or a hall built in the form of an upturned boat After swithering back and forth I think that this was a weirwood grove, but a spectacularly desecrated one; the trees forming the circle stripped of their branches and the heart-tree uprooted and rammed back in upside down in an act of almost sexual defilement. No wonder the three-fingered lot called down the hammer of the waters on it and those who carried out this defilement. Black Crow I am not trying to call you out if that is what you think. It has been made clear by you and the people you converse with that my ideas are too far out there to be considered and that I should stay away from Hersey. i notice how you have yet to comment on the two empty quivers Jon Snow mentions in his battle at Castle Black. Did you run out of arrows for me? these are your own words not mine own. if you care to explain what swithering back and forth means, I understood it as something else I guess. if the grey king slew a weirwood grove i guess it just crazy to guess that a seafaring religion landed in Essos with fire and blood and song and a guy name Hugor of the Hill forms a religion based upon cotf/weirwood hate that would invade with fire and blood song one day and that he is in any way connected to Nagga's Hill and weirwood slaughter and their fire and blood and song. or the events that were about to happen at god's eye 300 years past yep that can't be pulled from the text at all. And the person who does is crazy and uninformed and doesn't know how to cite text or draw conclusions... You are indeed and once again I will thank you to stop misrepresenting what I have said. I am of the opinion that Nagga's bones are indeed the remains of an ancient weirwood grove. I have not however flip-flopped to support or endorse in any shape or form your very imaginative but wholly unsupported fan-fiction concerning the ironborn. I do not believe that Nagga's bones being a weirwood remotely points to what you suggest. /end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 I don't think that you have read the sample of The World of Ice and Fire. There are some revelations in that book that are going to blow you and this . . . away. http://www.randomhouse.biz/international/files/marketing/sellsheets/WORLDOFICEANDFIRE_Martin_EXPBOX.pdf really do you have an early copy and are keeping secret info from the rest of us? i guess i forgot to go pick it up... cause that link says it came out in 2013... :drunk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortspear Rick Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 if the grey king slew a weirwood grove i guess it just crazy to guess that a seafaring religion landed in Essos with fire and blood and song and a guy name Hugor of the Hill forms a religion based upon cotf/weirwood hate that would invade with fire and blood song one day and that he is in any way connected to Nagga's Hill and weirwood slaughter and their fire and blood and song. or the events that were about to happen at god's eye 300 years past yep that can't be pulled from the text at all. And the person who does is crazy and uninformed and doesn't know how to cite text or draw conclusions... This is a good example of you garnering things from the text that aren't there. The faith of the seven that the Andals practice isn't based upon hate of weirwoods and children of the forest. It is just it's own religion and whenever a new one sweeps down the old religion is tossed aside and desecrated. It's like how Melisandre burns all the statues of the 7. It's not because worship of R'hllor is based upon destroying other religions, it's because practitioners merely worship their own god and see other deities as inconsequential and unnecessary. The fact that different religions would each desecrate the same thing does not mean that they are inherently connected. You go on about the arrows. Are you familiar with archery at all? A quiver will only hold so many arrows, so Jon has to continuously reach for more throughout the battle. There is no indication in the text that any of the arrows in the reserve aren't fletched like the ones he described using. When he feels as if he were the one to have shot Ygritte, it's pretty easy to gather that he feels responsible for her death because he abandoned her to rejoin his brothers who wind up killing her and practically everyone they rode with. He feels guilty about actually loving her and not being able to tell her that he was still a crow at heart because it would mean his life, the lives of everyone at Castle Black and the entire Night's Watch. You talk about Ryk's conversation with Jon. These are teasing remarks from someone from her same village who thinks of her as a sister. Based on wildling customs they would expect Jon to be having sex with Ygritte. It's used to create internal tension within Jon. It would be easy to do and something no one around him would condemn him for yet it would mean forsaking his vows, which he had not yet done at that point. You say that only those few people you list are aware of the song of the winter rose because those are the only ones who mention it in the text. How can you draw that conclusion? Because Jon Snow isn't aware of the story? For someone who brags about how good he is at figuring things out that aren't pointed out in the text, did you ever think that a story about how a wildling kidnapped and impregnated a daughter of Winterfell and would be in the bloodline henceforth wouldn't be something that they really talked about at Winterfell? Other people know the song, including night's watch members and other wildlings who are around when the song is sung by Mance and others. Like everyone says and you refuse to believe, you are putting meaning to the text to match your own preconceived notions instead of drawing information from the text. To put it in a way you might understand, it's like you keep showing us a picture of a red square and arguing that it is a green ball, then saying every one of us must be blind and out to get you because we don't see the same thing. People aren't ragging on you because you've come up with a theory and interpretation. It happens all the time. People are merely pointing out flaws in your argument yet you are so stubborn that you refuse to accept any possibility other than the one you yourself have created. Are you 15? Because that's how you are acting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 really do you have an early copy and are keeping secret info from the rest of us? i guess i forgot to go pick it up... cause that link says it came out in 2013... :drunk: There has been a delay, but some previews, and some readable photos of the innards have been available for some time. The latest is that it will be released 11/2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 There has been a delay, but some previews, and some readable photos of the innards have been available for some time. The latest is that it will be released 11/2014. all jokes aside, i am really looking forward to this coming out... I assume when it does many of our questions will be answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 This is a good example of you garnering things from the text that aren't there. The faith of the seven that the Andals practice isn't based upon hate of weirwoods and children of the forest. It is just it's own religion and whenever a new one sweeps down the old religion is tossed aside and desecrated. It's like how Melisandre burns all the statues of the 7. It's not because worship of R'hllor is based upon destroying other religions, it's because practitioners merely worship their own god and see other deities as inconsequential and unnecessary. The fact that different religions would each desecrate the same thing does not mean that they are inherently connected. You go on about the arrows. Are you familiar with archery at all? A quiver will only hold so many arrows, so Jon has to continuously reach for more throughout the battle. There is no indication in the text that any of the arrows in the reserve aren't fletched like the ones he described using. When he feels as if he were the one to have shot Ygritte, it's pretty easy to gather that he feels responsible for her death because he abandoned her to rejoin his brothers who wind up killing her and practically everyone they rode with. He feels guilty about actually loving her and not being able to tell her that he was still a crow at heart because it would mean his life, the lives of everyone at Castle Black and the entire Night's Watch. You talk about Ryk's conversation with Jon. These are teasing remarks from someone from her same village who thinks of her as a sister. Based on wildling customs they would expect Jon to be having sex with Ygritte. It's used to create internal tension within Jon. It would be easy to do and something no one around him would condemn him for yet it would mean forsaking his vows, which he had not yet done at that point. You say that only those few people you list are aware of the song of the winter rose because those are the only ones who mention it in the text. How can you draw that conclusion? Because Jon Snow isn't aware of the story? For someone who brags about how good he is at figuring things out that aren't pointed out in the text, did you ever think that a story about how a wildling kidnapped and impregnated a daughter of Winterfell and would be in the bloodline henceforth wouldn't be something that they really talked about at Winterfell? Other people know the song, including night's watch members and other wildlings who are around when the song is sung by Mance and others. Like everyone says and you refuse to believe, you are putting meaning to the text to match your own preconceived notions instead of drawing information from the text. To put it in a way you might understand, it's like you keep showing us a picture of a red square and arguing that it is a green ball, then saying every one of us must be blind and out to get you because we don't see the same thing. People aren't ragging on you because you've come up with a theory and interpretation. It happens all the time. People are merely pointing out flaws in your argument yet you are so stubborn that you refuse to accept any possibility other than the one you yourself have created. Are you 15? Because that's how you are acting. how can people be pointing out flaws? i have not seen one person use a credible quote from the text to disprove anything I have made " leaps " too... besides Bran and Arya and Sansa and Robb nobody else in the text quotes Maester Luwin and Old Nan at length... this is to provide depth into our Stark children and that they believe in both the mystical truth's/scientific i could post at length all the times they say She said this... or He told me that... but not many mentions to the Skagossan Rebellion 100 years past that claimed the life of Lord Stark and many of his sworn swords... yet none of neither of them or anybody else during their childhood explained or talked or hinted about the Song o' the Winter Rose or The Crown of The Winter Rose or any of the other relevant stories that must be made by connecting different characters and parts of the story into one tale that all connects back... to a single point The only way to assume Old Nan knows more that she lets on is when she mentions Magnar of Skagos as the first man besides a Stark who could have been Night's King... I have chosen the quote from Ygritte our wildling prophet princess to do so... an evil name. to use as six degrees of separation. its actually a game called Kevin Bacon but can be used as an effective stratagey to discover what GRRM is attempting to hide... like i have discussed with earlier posters just because you see something and I see something else when we read the same passage doesn't discredit or disqualify my opinion... in the end these are words on paper and different folks got different strokes... :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargaryen Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 brans wolf summer has green eyes like moss, robbs wolf greywind had eyes gold like the sun, and jon snows wolf ghost has red eyes like blood. all of these are traits of children of the forest who have been marked for the gift. i dont know if that means the have their blood in ancient past or what but that is the connection to eyes if you haven't figured that out yet. Like Nymeria arya's wolf is the strongest warg due to her wild nature like lyanna. her wolf is a call back to the warrior queen or rhyone that had cotf connections. all of this is stuff you apparently missed. I don't know if this is still relevant to your theory, but Summer has gold yellow eyes. Bran's 4th chapter in AGOT (The 24th chapter in the book) says: "Bran’s Summer came last. He was silver and smoke, with eyes of yellow gold that saw all there was to see." Shaggy is the wolf with green eyes, Ghost with red, and the rest with gold or yellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWanderer Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 how can people be pointing out flaws? i have not seen one person use a credible quote from the text to disprove anything I have made " leaps " too... People don't have to provide quotes to show flaws. All they have to do is show other ways in which your quotes can be interpreted, which is what they have been doing. I'm not sure why you insist on tying the Skagosi rebellion to the story of Bael. There are virtually no ties between them (Bael uses a Skagosi word, but the Skagosi tongue is spoken in other places north of the Wall) and the two stories include a couple massive differences. Firstly, the Skagosi are technically citizens of the North, that's why it's viewed as a rebellion and not an invasion. The leader of the Skagosi is never named but simply cannot be a King-Beyond-the-Wall, since he is not beyond the Wall. Bael is, obviously, a King-Beyond-the-Wall and thus cannot be the leader of the rebellion. Secondly, a Stark dies in the Skagosi rebellion but no Stark dies in Baels story. A Bolton and a Flint are also suggested, is Bael a Bolton? 1) Ygritte is neither a prophet or a princess. 2) Do you have anything that shows that she is reacting to the full name and not just the Snow part (which would logically be an evil name in a land where winter brings death)? Do you have anything that shows that Bael's son was named Jon? You can't have anything that shows he was named Jon Snow because he was never recognized as a bastard. That's... really not how that game works. That's exactly what it does. If your opinion is based on a particular interpretation of a passage and others can quite easily and accurately point out equally (if not more) valid interpretations of that passage, then your opinion becomes less qualified. In a reasonable debate this would lead you to go back and either a) prove why your interpretation is more valid/accurate or be) find additional/other passages to back your opinion. You haven't done that. When your opinion gets challenged you go back and seem to utterly change what you're talking about, supporting you original faulty claim on increasingly convoluted 'logic' and utter fabrication (I call this the Lux method, after a poster on another forum absolutely infamous for it). This is demonstrated by the fact that although we started on (hint it's what the thread is named) a discussion about whether Jon killed Ygritte, at no point in your last several posts have you even discussed Ygritte's death, you're now talking about Bael the Bard and Lyanna's (possible) choice for her (possible) sons name. Nothing Bael or Lyanna did has any bearing on whether the arrow that killed Ygritte was shot by Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargaryen Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am going to avoid repeating myself. I believe the importance of this quote is to show that Jon has spared her life, this is shown by the blood at her neck. He pulls his Valryian sword from the dead body of her husband Orell the Eagle Warg thus claiming her for himself in the ancient wildling traditon. He tells her his name and she reacts, because it is a cursed name. so this quote is important to my over all theory because it show's her ex-husband hates Jon Snow. The Lord of Bones, with Orell sitting on his shoulder who is Ygrittes ex-husband, says he is a warg crow ( similar to who? Yes Brynden Rivers you dumb assholes!) Ygritte says this has never frightened us before because her husband is sitting on Bone's shoulder and Jon Snow is her new man. But he doesn't know it and keeps his seed to himself. You make numerous references to Ygritte and Orell being married, but I don't recall any indication that they were married or even sexually involved. Help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 You make numerous references to Ygritte and Orell being married, but I don't recall any indication that they were married or even sexually involved. Help? no problem. Look at the scene in Storm of Swords right before jon is forced to kill the old man at queen's crown... always glad to show someone the light... :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargaryen Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 “ The thought made his belly heave again. Sam bent over the gunwale and retched, but not into the wind. He had gone to the right this time. He was getting good at retching. Or so he thought, until Blackbird left the land behind and struck east across the bay for the shore of Skagos.” AFFC Samwell Blackbird is a reference to Bloodraven being in control/watching/making sure the journey of Sam & Aemon as they cross the sea to Oldtown... I'm a huge Bloodraven fan, but I feel like this is more GRRM just talking about the name of the ship they're on than Brynden Rivers. It makes sense that once the ship, the Night's Watch ship named Blackbird, left the calmer waters and went into the bay, Sam got more seasick. How does this relate to out Three-Eyed Crow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 1. 2 starks die in bael story. The mother who threw herself from the tower and the son who was cursed as kinslayer and kingslayer and had is skin worn as a cloak. 2. no Bael the Bard is Sygerrik The Magnar of Skagos and King Beyond the Wall. just likes the Mance 3. you said your name was the bastard of winterfell and you dont know we is kin? yes its implied smart guy. The song is sad because the young lord stark was a bastard and killed his father who was king and became cursed. the whole point of my theory is an attempt to explain why this is... 4. yes it is. you connect one actor to another to another to another... well i don't want to spoil the fun for you :cool4: 5. nope. everybody is entitled to their own views in regards to understanding what is important in the text... dude jon has a white direwolf white red eyes... he is cursed that is what all this evil name business and killing ygritte suggests... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 I'm a huge Bloodraven fan, but I feel like this is more GRRM just talking about the name of the ship they're on than Brynden Rivers. It makes sense that once the ship, the Night's Watch ship named Blackbird, left the calmer waters and went into the bay, Sam got more seasick. How does this relate to out Three-Eyed Crow? well Blackbird is a call back to Brynden River being a member of the night's watch/ lord commander and the three eyed crow in brans dreams... also aemon came with brynden on a ship called golden dragon so it only fits he sends him (by overseeing his journey from the tree) out on the Blackbird... sam getting seasick is a " red flag" that important pieces of the story are about to be given... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargaryen Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 no problem. Look at the scene in Storm of Swords right before jon is forced to kill the old man at queen's crown... always glad to show someone the light... :cool4: “Do it, Jon Snow,” Ygritte urged. “You must. T’ prove you are no crow, but one o’ the free folk.” “An old man sitting by a fire?” “Orell was sitting by a fire too. You killed him quick enough.” The look she gave him then was hard. “You meant t’ kill me too, till you saw I was a woman. And I was asleep.” “That was different. You were soldiers . . . sentries.” “Aye, and you crows didn’t want t’ be seen. No more’n we do, now. It’s just the same. Kill him.” He turned his back on the man. “No.”The Magnar moved closer, tall, cold, and dangerous. “I say yes. I command here.” “You command Thenns,” Jon told him, “not free folk.” “I see no free folk. I see a crow and a crow wife.” “I’m no crow wife!” Ygritte snatched her knife from its sheath. Three quick strides, and she yanked the old man’s head back by the hair and opened his throat from ear to ear. Even in death, the man did not cry out. “You know nothing, Jon Snow!” she shouted at him, and flung the bloody blade at his feet." I don't see where Orell comes into this as Ygritte's husband. She never shows any deep sorrow or hard feelings with Jon over his death. "I see a crow and a crow wife" is a reference to Jon still being a crow and Ygritte being loyal to him. Do you disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 “Do it, Jon Snow,” Ygritte urged. “You must. T’ prove you are no crow, but one o’ the free folk.” “An old man sitting by a fire?” “Orell was sitting by a fire too. You killed him quick enough.” The look she gave him then was hard. “You meant t’ kill me too, till you saw I was a woman. And I was asleep.” “That was different. You were soldiers . . . sentries.” “Aye, and you crows didn’t want t’ be seen. No more’n we do, now. It’s just the same. Kill him.” He turned his back on the man. “No.” The Magnar moved closer, tall, cold, and dangerous. “I say yes. I command here.” “You command Thenns,” Jon told him, “not free folk.” “I see no free folk. I see a crow and a crow wife.” “I’m no crow wife!” Ygritte snatched her knife from its sheath. Three quick strides, and she yanked the old man’s head back by the hair and opened his throat from ear to ear. Even in death, the man did not cry out. “You know nothing, Jon Snow!” she shouted at him, and flung the bloody blade at his feet." I don't see where Orell comes into this as Ygritte's husband. She never shows any deep sorrow or hard feelings with Jon over his death. "I see a crow and a crow wife" is a reference to Jon still being a crow and Ygritte being loyal to him. Do you disagree? well she always says you stole me... then the question the reader must ask himself is from who? two people killed as senteries and it seems the hawk has a special vendetta against jon besides just killing him, is it possible he stole his women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargaryen Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 well Blackbird is a call back to Brynden River being a member of the night's watch/ lord commander and the three eyed crow in brans dreams... also aemon came with brynden on a ship called golden dragon so it only fits he sends him (by overseeing his journey from the tree) out on the Blackbird... sam getting seasick is a " red flag" that important pieces of the story are about to be given... Blackbird could also be a call back to it being a Night Watch ship and the men of the Night's Watch are often called crows, a type of black bird. I don't see how it is so fitting for him to come on the Golden Dragon (named somewhat after the Targaryen sigil) and leaving on the Blackbird (named after the appearance of the men of the Night's Watch dressed all in black) except that it shows he came as a Targaryen and left in service to the Night's Watch. This still could just be the names of the ships and not have a deep meaning. It would seem odd for either ship to be named Stag's Revenge (for house Baratheon) or Flower's Thorn (for Tyrell) when they have nothing to do with the ships while it makes sense that the Targaryen ship would be named Golden Dragon and the Night's Watch ship to be named Blackbird. Also, how does Bloodraven send Aemon out? Jon does that…and there isn't any evidence I recall that Bloodraven watched over Aemon on his voyage. If he did, he didn't help much. Sam getting seasick could just be Sam getting seasick. Sansa is also very sick when fleeing King's Landing by ship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The biggest mystery is why you darlings keep trying, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Blackbird could also be a call back to it being a Night Watch ship and the men of the Night's Watch are often called crows, a type of black bird. I don't see how it is so fitting for him to come on the Golden Dragon (named somewhat after the Targaryen sigil) and leaving on the Blackbird (named after the appearance of the men of the Night's Watch dressed all in black) except that it shows he came as a Targaryen and left in service to the Night's Watch. This still could just be the names of the ships and not have a deep meaning. It would seem odd for either ship to be named Stag's Revenge (for house Baratheon) or Flower's Thorn (for Tyrell) when they have nothing to do with the ships while it makes sense that the Targaryen ship would be named Golden Dragon and the Night's Watch ship to be named Blackbird. Also, how does Bloodraven send Aemon out? Jon does that…and there isn't any evidence I recall that Bloodraven watched over Aemon on his voyage. If he did, he didn't help much. Sam getting seasick could just be Sam getting seasick. Sansa is also very sick when fleeing King's Landing by ship... well arya does rides the titans bastard gives them her token say the word, and gets on her waying to becoming a member of FM in braavos... ship names are clues to what is going on in the text for sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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