So Jon is Rhaegar's son. Now what?

[COYStars]

You're going by birth right. Kings Landing belongs to the House of Baratheon. How exactly is Jon Snow going to take the IT? When Dany and Rhaegar's other son is in Westeros for all the "Targ supporters" left?

This is where it gets interesting... we have a destabilised Baratheon reign, probably without any kings or queens left by the time that it all gets interesting; we have Dany with an established claim, F(Aegon) (who would have the best claim if he is who he says he is, but who probably isn't, and who has Dorne on his side), and Jon (whose claim trumps Dany's and is second only to YG's if he really is Aegon... and who will have popular support after the fight with the Others. And then whoever is left after the Game of Thrones (possibly Littlefinger, somehow) as the incumbent.

[joluoto2]

Jon would still not have a claim on the Iron Throne. He's still a bastard. Even if Lyanna and Rhaegar "got married", that marriage would never have been recognized by Westeros as a whole. Polygamy is neither practiced by the North nor the South.

[Frey Kings]

Jon is a Northmen, his family are Starks, his wolf is a direwolf, also a brother of the Night Watch, do you think he actually wants to play Politicis? He's a Northner as a Northner can get. There will be no point in taking IT. Because IT will equal nothing. Do you think Dany and/or Aegon will warm up to him as family?

Exactly how is he going to take IT, when Tyrells and/or whatever is left of the Lannisters, is in his path? What army can he muster up besides a direwolf?

[Corvo Attano]

There's a slim chance that Jon will wind up as King in The North, but more likely he will become a martyr, this bringing "ice & fire" full circle.

[COYStars]

Jon would still not have a claim on the Iron Throne. He's still a bastard. Even if Lyanna and Rhaegar "got married", that marriage would never have been recognized by Westeros as a whole. Polygamy is neither practiced by the North nor the South.

This argument makes no sense to me. If a polygamous marriage is recognisable in law, and Rhaegar and Lyanna were married legitimately, then Jon is legitimate in the eyes of the law. And therefore has a legitimate claim to the throne.

Whether the people accept his claim is a different matter. As I said, it seems to be a choice between him, (F)Aegon and Dany; Dany has the clearest but weakest claim, (F)Aegon has the strongest claim if he can prove his identity, and Jon is in the middle, with potentially a better ability (but inferior to Dany's) to prove his identity and a stronger claim than Dany's but inferior to (F)Aegon's. Who the people back is key but independent.

[COYStars]

Jon is a Northmen, his family are Starks, his wolf is a direwolf, also a brother of the Night Watch, do you think he actually wants to play Politicis? He's a Northner as a Northner can get. There will be no point in taking IT. Because IT will equal nothing. Do you think Dany and/or Aegon will warm up to him as family?

Exactly how is he going to take IT, when Tyrells and/or whatever is left of the Lannisters, is in his path? What army can he muster up besides a direwolf?

Jon, Dany and (F)Aegon are all of Targ heritage... we may end up with another Dance of Dragons

[Darksnider05]

Jon, Dany and (F)Aegon are all of Targ heritage... we may end up with another Dance of Dragons

For there to be a Dance Jon would have to give a flip about the IT or who's sitting on it. Unless Aegon or Dany is willing to march on the North their not getting at him.

[jet199]

Jon is a Northmen, his family are Starks, his wolf is a direwolf, also a brother of the Night Watch, do you think he actually wants to play Politicis? He's a Northner as a Northner can get. There will be no point in taking IT. Because IT will equal nothing. Do you think Dany and/or Aegon will warm up to him as family?

Exactly how is he going to take IT, when Tyrells and/or whatever is left of the Lannisters, is in his path? What army can he muster up besides a direwolf?

Northmen are not a different species and they play politics as much as everyone else.

[C0bR]

Realistically? Nothing happens, apart from some moody Jon and his internal struggles.

If he has any brain left after going through death, the knowledge of his parentage won't ever be revealed to anyone.

If he is going to end up as a hero of some kind... well actions make heroes, not blood and prophecy.

[joluoto2]

For there to be a Dance Jon would have to give a flip about the IT or who's sitting on it. Unless Aegon or Dany is willing to march on the North their not getting at him.

Agreed, Jon doesn't have time for no Game of Thrones. He has an army of Zombies marching on him.

[COYStars]

For there to be a Dance Jon would have to give a flip about the IT or who's sitting on it. Unless Aegon or Dany is willing to march on the North their not getting at him.

Let's assume that the dragons each find their owners. If that is the case, then it'll be obvious to each who the others are. Jon may not desire to pick a fight unless Aegon acts poorly and the public need protection from him; but the other two may take the fight to him, in order to determine their own right. There would have to be at least a meeting of the three, in order to determine each's intentions, as leaving an heir on a dragon would leave your flank rather exposed.

I doubt this part of the story would take up much time, to be honest. But it's probably inevitable.

[.Scream]

Furthers Jon's resolve to stay on the wall.

I've said it a bunch: People don't understand that it isn't Jon's LIFE which is tied up in the wall, that some little death loophole will poke through

It's his HONOR, which means waaaaay more to Jon than his life.

If it does happen, it's only to strengthen that part of his character arc and renew his dedication to the wall. He will make the same choice Aemon did.

I think by the end of this, there will be no Wall nor Nights Watch. What then? What do you do when the thing you took a vow to defend doesn't exist anymore? Are you released from your duties?

Should the wall still be standing, and if he is indeed alive, I would love to see him bring some form of justice to the men who stabbed him.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Jon dies in the cold, killed by his own brothers for planning to desert.

Well deserved. Future Lord Commanders, don't meddle in the affairs of the stuarts, because they are supposed to make all necessary plans for the dessert!

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Jon, Dany and (F)Aegon are all of Targ heritage... we may end up with another Dance of Dragons

Or not. It is foreshadowed when Jon refused to dance...

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Jon get's closure moves on with his life with that weight off his shoulders. Is his personal development not enough?

to make a little sense, I think Jon's legal Targ heritage is just the tad of irony needed for the bastard loser Jon Doe Snow working his way up at the least likely place, the end and the edge of the world.

All the rest may or may not play a part, he may meet or face other royals and pretenders or not. Or he may even dead or walk a dark path just like Bran had to do for more than a few chapters.

He has been all of a good story, and let's be surprised what's still in it. No need for the prophesys to fulfill, if he will be able to fulfill a promise, or two.

[butterbumps!]

This thread is simply to address the issue of what happens if R+L=J

And please, spare us all the BS theories of Jon single handeldy saving the day.

I'm looking for realistc possibilites of how this would effect the actual story.

interestingly enough I was working on an OP about this, and how it fits with Aegon and Dany.

To answer your query, I actually think it matters in the context of manifesting the social change we've been seeing. Bear with me.

I don't think R+L will play out in a literal Return of the King scenario (and further, I think Jon and Aegon are completely deconstructing that expectation when looked at adjacently). One supreme difference between ASOIAF and LotR is that ASOIAF's world is indeed changing-- ASOIAF is a social critique through a deconstruction and remapping of power. Meaning, there's no "true heir" and the whole construct of "rightfulness" via bloodline has been completely shattered. Aragorn could return as the long lost king because the social structure of Middle Earth was never challenged; conversely, ASOIAF is undergoing a major social crisis and dissolution of the status quo.

I've grown increasingly favorable to the idea that we'll see Jon on the throne, but not because his Targ bloodline puts him there. I suspect that he's the legitimate son of R+L, but will choose to identify himself and be recognized as a bastard and may end up on the throne because of that. I don't think he's THE hero of everything or anything like that, but I do think he's positioned to play a significant role wrt the Battle of the Dawn, and I suspect he'll earn recognition in that role. I'm also suspecting he'll be one of the few leaders standing by the end. I can see his ascending the throne via consensus in the aftermath of crisis, in part because his identity as a Snow places him outside of specific family loyalties and makes him an outsider to the extant power structures (sort of like how the Targs were originally outsiders and that helped their recognition as authorities above the rest). There's also incredibly elegant literary symmetry to seeing Jon, a (potentially) legitimate, though publicly perceived bastard sitting on the throne at the end as a symbol of peace, while an illegitimate, though publicly legitimate bastard's sitting the throne is what started the war in the first place.

Though I think Jon is positioned to be the best candidate to do this, I think in general we're going to see a king take the throne due to deeds and consensus rather than due to bloodline. Look at Varys' plans for Aegon. Yes, part of the plan is to have Aegon sold as Rhaegar's returned son, but that wasn't enough; Varys had him trained to be an Enlightened Monarch and was fabricating this strawman Dothraki invasion so that Aegon could swoop in and win over Westeros as a savior. Consider also Stannis' goal; post Davos' intervention, Stannis believes that once he performs his Azor Ahai heroics in battle, he'll be recognized as rightful for those deeds and ascend the throne. Increasingly, candidates are recognizing that they must perform some sort of valuable service to the realm and gain consensus, and I strongly believe that someone who does, in fact perform a valuable service will be chosen (not that I'm suggesting Westeros will move toward democracy or anything, but rather, that the next king will be chosen through a Council of sorts for reasons that reveal a sense of political progress, such as earned rightfulness, fitness for rule, etc).

I think the Battle for the Dawn is the big "service" a candidate will have to perform in, and I think Jon is in prime position for that. I think he'll distinguish himself as a leader, but not necessarily as the "big main hero of prophesies" and so forth.

So the way I see R+L is mainly of incredible significance to Jon's character, specifically, his finally choosing to be a Snow, which I think actually gives him a better shot at being chosen by those remaining after all this for kingship, given the way the status quo has been shattered and moving toward progress.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

interestingly enough I was working on an OP about this, and how it fits with Aegon and Dany.

To answer your query, I actually think it matters in the context of manifesting the social change we've been seeing. Bear with me.

... given the way the status quo has been shattered and moving toward progress.

:agree:

And while I still have hopes Jon may have a different outcome, I believe that if Jon has to do the kinging, he will have to pull a meereeneese Dany and sit on some other sort of chair*, a stool or maybe one wrought out of the ice-y swords of the Others.

*On account of Drogon accidentally having swallowed the original Iron Throne while picking his teeth with it.

[Universal Sword Donor]

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT I HAVE SEEN IN THIS THREAD!!!

Jon's character development does not point to him choosing honor. Jon is the character that, in the end, will do what is right. That was shown with Half-hand and the wildlings. It was shown again when he decided to go to WF (though he only made it like 10 feet before a terrible stabbing incident). Jon, once resurrected, will be the man who chooses to ignore laws and honor and do everything necessary to rally the living against the dead.

To answer the OP, Jon being Rhaegar's son is important because:

1. prophesy that PtwP will be born of Mad King's + sister's blood line, so Jon can be AA/PtwP and WARG A DRAGON (that will be awesome)

2. a song of ice and fire IMO means Jon being the son of R+L and other associated metaphors (Starks and Targs, wargs and dragon riders, old gods and new, etc)

Politically, it doesn't have as much importance.

Also keeping to the vows can be played kind of fast and loose. If Jon "realizes" that the only way to defend the realm is the challenge (or sit on) the IT, he's going to do it. If the Walkers and wights actually march on the wall, I have no doubt the NW and wildlings won't be able to hold it, whether that means they find a way around the Wall's magic or have the actual horn of Joramun.

But like several people in this thread have already pointed out, Jon was going south to save his sister and already left the wall once to go to his brother before that. I doubt he'd have any qualms staking his claim provided he actually believed he had a right to it.

[joluoto2]

The important thing for Jon is to finally learn who his mother was, not his father. He already know who his father is.

[Antler's Fury]

I think by the end of this, there will be no Wall nor Nights Watch. What then? What do you do when the thing you took a vow to defend doesn't exist anymore? Are you released from your duties?

Jon took vows to defend the realm, which will exists with or without the Watch or the Wall.

This argument makes no sense to me. If a polygamous marriage is recognisable in law, and Rhaegar and Lyanna were married legitimately, then Jon is legitimate in the eyes of the law. And therefore has a legitimate claim to the throne.

Whether the people accept his claim is a different matter. As I said, it seems to be a choice between him, (F)Aegon and Dany; Dany has the clearest but weakest claim, (F)Aegon has the strongest claim if he can prove his identity, and Jon is in the middle, with potentially a better ability (but inferior to Dany's) to prove his identity and a stronger claim than Dany's but inferior to (F)Aegon's. Who the people back is key but independent.

But why on earth would he push his "claim" assuming he has any? And what proof would there by that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married?

I don't think he's THE hero of everything or anything like that, but I do think he's positioned to play a significant role wrt the Battle of the Dawn, and I suspect he'll earn recognition in that role. I'm also suspecting he'll be one of the few leaders standing by the end.

Surely this is more of a reason for him to rebuild the NW, which should be all the more relevant now that the Others are no longer believed to be mere fairy tales? The whole reason the NW fell into disrepair in the first place is because it forgot it's true purpose. Who better to restore it as LC than a hero from Battle of the Dawn 2.0?

I can see his ascending the throne via consensus in the aftermath of crisis, in part because his identity as a Snow places him outside of specific family loyalties and makes him an outsider to the extant power structures (sort of like how the Targs were originally outsiders and that helped their recognition as authorities above the rest).

And where would Jon get the political support and military strength to do this? And why Jon be the only consensus candidate? If he's not "THE hero" then surely there would be plenty of other leaders to choose from?

Also keeping to the vows can be played kind of fast and loose. If Jon "realizes" that the only way to defend the realm is the challenge (or sit on) the IT, he's going to do it. If the Walkers and wights actually march on the wall, I have no doubt the NW and wildlings won't be able to hold it, whether that means they find a way around the Wall's magic or have the actual horn of Joramun.

So the people of Westeros won't fight omnicidal snow demons unless they receive orders from the Iron Throne to do so?

But like several people in this thread have already pointed out, Jon was going south to save his sister and already left the wall once to go to his brother before that. I doubt he'd have any qualms staking his claim provided he actually believed he had a right to it.

But he's matured significantly since then. To revert back to this childish tendency would be regressive character development. Furthermore, neither of these two incidents had anything to do with Jon's "right" or "claim" to anything.