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How well will the Unsullied do in Westeros?


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#1 Caezaire

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:43 AM

If I recall from the books, the Unsullied are given spears, a shield, a tunic, and a spiked cap when they are sold. This makes them very lightly armored which would probably be a benefit for combat in southern Essos, which is a bit south of Dorne if I recall. However, in contrast to the mailed Frey pikemen this makes them seem very unprepared to do battle with a trained Westerosi force. If Dany had landed instead of marching on Yunkai and fought a Lannister army of similar numbers, who do you think would win?


Edited by Caezaire, 21 April 2014 - 12:45 AM.


#2 Olligarchy

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:47 AM

The Unsullied will lose... badly. Their fighting style and techniques are what amounts to piss poor version of Hoplites from the ancient world, where as the said Lannister host, even after the mauling received from Robb Stark and numerous others is a feudal force with enough heavy horse and longbows to completely smash the Unsullied.



#3 Gneisenau

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:48 AM

http://en.wikipedia....le_of_Marignano

 

The French gendarmes defeated the Swiss pikemen, so pikemen are not invincible.



#4 Formerly Tetrarch42

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:49 AM

If given time to form up and put to use their legendary endurance and discipline, quite well. If you smash them before they can do that, they're just average soliders with poorer equipment than the typical freerider-or man-at arms.



#5 Gneisenau

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:52 AM

Dany's problem isn't military, it is an image problem. If she ends up bringing the Dothraki with her to Westeros, I don't think anyone will bend the knee, because who wants the raping and pillaging Dothraki to roam around Westeros ?



#6 Belisarius09

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:55 AM

You're taking essentially a classical greek force up against a medieval style feudal force. 

 

classical greece was 500-300 BC the middle ages were 500-1500 AD at the very least thats 800 years difference in evolution of warfare. 

 

the westeros medieval styled armies would crush dany's unsullied as they currently stand. 

 

Now granted I think a disciplined roman legion may have been more effective than some medieval armies, thats still pushing it, and the romans easilly exploited the weaknesses of the greek phalanxes.  phalanxes were very binary, they could push forward, but once committed they could not maneuver or change formation or adapt to changes in the battlefield.  they may be effective against frontal attacks by westerosi knights, but they would be outclassed in a battle of maneuver, and long bow archers could decimate them from afar.  shield walls failed the saxons at hastings against archers and cavalry of the normans. every historical example indicates dany's force would lose. 


Edited by Belisarius09, 21 April 2014 - 12:56 AM.


#7 Olligarchy

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:55 AM

Dany's problem isn't military, it is an image problem. If she ends up bringing the Dothraki with her to Westeros, I don't think anyone will bend the knee, because who wants the raping and pillaging Dothraki to roam around Westeros ?

 

I'd say she's a military problem too. Bar using her dragons, her so called "host" is what amounts to a sword made of rubber. The Dothraki are her only viable fighting force, and even they aren't really designed for pitched battle meaning that if she doesn't get some actually useful troops she'll lose every battle presented upon her.



#8 starkbucks

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:57 AM

What's stopping the unsullied from wearing armor? Only the dumbest commander will pit unarmored soldiers against armored ones. The wildlings are practically smashed by Stannis despite their overwhelming numbers.



#9 PrinceHenryris

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:58 AM

They would do fine. They're more organized and better disciplined than any fighting force in Westeros. Their spears would make it difficult for any Calvary riding against them.

While the Unsullied's current "uniforms" might not be ready for winter in Westeros, I'd be willing to bet that Barristan, Jorah, or even Victarion would recognize the need to give them warmer clothing and possibly even some minimal armor.

#10 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:04 AM

Barristan is training them. At some point, he will suggest armors when they land in Westeros.



#11 Belisarius09

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:05 AM

The unsullied don't start with armor, but I think in the book they mention how owners of unsullied often purchase armor to make them heavier infantry. 

 

The unsullied would need to acquire some heavier armor (possible if they win the battle of mereen to take armor off the dead).  Next they would need to form some sort of auxiliaries and get some archers.  the westerosi armies completely dominate them in this aspect as they have both longbowmen and crossbowmen.  last the unsullied would need to form some sort of cavalry regiment to accompany their infantry.  (recall, the OP asks how the unsullied would fare vs westeros forces, not how all of danys army would fare dragons, dothraki and sellswords included). 

 

Until the unsullied formed these other branches archers/skirmishes/cavalry they would be badly outmatched simply because they'd be so limited in how they could fight. 



#12 Caezaire

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:07 AM

What's stopping the unsullied from wearing armor? Only the dumbest commander will pit unarmored soldiers against armored ones. The wildlings are practically smashed by Stannis despite their overwhelming numbers.

Yes, but it goes further than that. I think the Unsullied most represent Antigonid phalanxes due to the lack of heavy cavalry required. Spear formations are not the kind of soldiers you would want to use to break an army. At the moment, Dany has no heavy cavalry which is basically the only way for a pure phalanx army to win a decisive victory without tremendous losses. Against mobile formations, the only continuously successful commander was Pyrrus and he incorporated other heavy infantry, elephants, and heavy cavalry and we know what they say about disastrous victories.   



#13 Caezaire

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:09 AM

The unsullied don't start with armor, but I think in the book they mention how owners of unsullied often purchase armor to make them heavier infantry. 

 

The unsullied would need to acquire some heavier armor (possible if they win the battle of mereen to take armor off the dead).  Next they would need to form some sort of auxiliaries and get some archers.  the westerosi armies completely dominate them in this aspect as they have both longbowmen and crossbowmen.  last the unsullied would need to form some sort of cavalry regiment to accompany their infantry.  (recall, the OP asks how the unsullied would fare vs westeros forces, not how all of danys army would fare dragons, dothraki and sellswords included). 

 

Until the unsullied formed these other branches archers/skirmishes/cavalry they would be badly outmatched simply because they'd be so limited in how they could fight. 

Dragons are obviously game changers. It would be a bit unfair to consider them since they won a battle while Aegon's infantry rapidly advanced in a direction that wasn't towards Mern/Lannister host.



#14 Wise Fool

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:37 AM

The Unsullied are fantastic, but it seems that Westeros would have the advantage, not only in numbers but in versatility. They could outflank the Unsullied with both light and heavy cavalry - Dany has no cavalry before Yunkai other than maybe a handful of poorer-than-normal Dothraki? I imagine the Unsullied are used to archers, they might have a testudo type tactic designed to protect against arrow fire. But combined with being outflanked by cavalry, AND invested with infantry, AND assaulted by archers, it'd go very poorly for them.

 

Her one real weapon at that point in the series is the gigantic brass balls of Ser Barristan, which she could presumably use to pulverize holdfasts and keeps into dust, but that's probably not enough.

 

So it'll be good when she finally lands, with dragons, with her Yunkish mercenaries and Victarion's ironmen and the cunning wit of Tyrion. Better still because unlike with the scenario the OP presents, she won't be facing Tywin or a still-potent and largely unified Iron Throne force.



#15 HouseHarrison

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:39 AM

Unsullied, supported on the flanks by Bloodriders and Storm Crows cavalry, would have done quite well imo. The Second Sons could have acted as a reserve to fill any breaches as well. Big army's are not very commonplace in Westeros.



#16 C0bR

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:43 AM

A bunch of testosterone and thus physical strenght lacking eunuchs with an equipment outdated by few millenia?

 

Not very well



#17 Wise Fool

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:45 AM

Unsullied, supported on the flanks by Bloodriders and Storm Crows cavalry, would have done quite well imo. The Second Sons could have acted as a reserve to fill any breaches as well. Big army's are not very commonplace in Westeros.

Yes, but the OP suggests this is pre-Yunkai Dany, which means she doesn't have Storm Crows or Second Sons.



#18 Formerly Tetrarch42

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:45 AM

A bunch of testosterone and thus physical strenght lacking eunuchs with an equipment outdated by few millenia?

 

Not very well

They're immune to pain and probably stronger than your typical levy, and maybe comparable to a man-at-arms.

They do nothing but train and assumedly they're stronger  than everage to make it through the training.



#19 bebeber

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:51 AM

Depends on how many westerosi armies fight on Danys side.

#20 A Bastard Snow

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:58 AM

Considering they have no archers or cavalry it wouldn't go very well for them.Not to mention that they cant deal with the harpies so they would do terrible against an insurgent force (like the bogmen or any force really)All they would have to do is simply bleed the Unsullied in several small fights and use the fact that the Unsullied has 0 reinforcements while the Westerosi have the home field advantage.

And lastly the only good commander they have is Barristan as he is the only person to have actually set foot in Westeros.