So I just read the Hedge Knight for the first time, and have a question...

[Stormland's Fury]

If anything, Martin's heroes not being badass fighters is a good thing.

This. It's much more riveting if they don't win everything by default.

[Gneisenau]

Mounted combat always amounted to who was the better rider, so it is normal that poor Dunk wasn'tmgood at jousting.

[Blow My Horn]

In Dunk's jousting scene, doesn't he aim for the shield at first by habit and remember too late what Baelor said about aiming for the body? It doesn't matter how you win in life or death situations, just win baby.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Mounted combat always amounted to who was the better rider, so it is normal that poor Dunk wasn'tmgood at jousting.

I am not too bothered about jousting skills to be honest, as I don't consider that real man to man fighting.

That said, I expected him to then overcome his foe in hand to hand combat with swords, where his greater reach and strength would be of advantage. But alas, even that was not on display.

Instead, he basically lay in the mud, grabbed the guy's leg, and then fell on him, before proceeding to clobber him in the face with a shield. And that was pretty much that.

Not even a bit of swordfighting to show that he has at least some promise as a knight.

[Queen of Whores]

The one thing that struck me clearly yet again, is how bad the Targs are. Man they are a bunch of mad degenerates. The sooner they are eradicated, the better.

But... but Baelor Breakspear :crying:

Other than him and Egg though... yeah I really dislike every Targaryen. Bloodraven not included, cause he's a bastard and awesome.

[Stormland's Fury]

But... but Baelor Breakspear :crying:

Other than him and Egg though... yeah I really dislike every Targaryen. Bloodraven not included, cause he's a bastard and awesome.

Yeah but still there are certainly enough of them who don't deserve to die.

[HexMachina]

Yeah but still there are certainly enough of them who don't deserve to die.

Helaena and Daeron, my favourite Greens, Jaehaerys the Conciliator, Jaehaerys II (since there are no bad reports about him) Rhaella Targaryen, Aemon Targaryen, Baela Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen, Baelor Breakspear and his Sons. I had no issue with any of these (and i may have missed some :D)

[Stormland's Fury]

Helaena and Daeron, my favourite Greens, Jaehaerys the Conciliator, Jaehaerys II (since there are no bad reports about him) Rhaella Targaryen, Aemon Targaryen, Baela Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen, Baelor Breakspear and his Sons. I had no issue with any of these (and i may have missed some :D)

i think it's even the most interesting family, I just don't particularity care for the more recent ones. But even then I don't hate those.

[Ran]

I find this pretty baffling. Did you really actually read the story? Because right near the end you have this:

"You'll swear your sword to me, and Aegon can squire for you. While you train him, my master-at-arms will finish your own training." The prince gave him a shrewd look. "Your Ser Arlan did all he could for you, I have no doubt, but you still have much to learn."

Dunk got the bare basics from Arlan -- a hedge knight living hand-to-mouth can't really give his squire much training, after all -- and that's it. He can brawl, but he's a novice swordsman and jouster.

Lots of good Targaryens, and the realm, on the whole, was better for the fact that it was unified. Fewer wars, greater prosperity, etc.

[Mychel_Redfort]

The greatness of Dunk is precisely that despite his physical strength, he's the symbol of a true knight through his heart and not through his skills

[Free Northman Reborn]

I just hate the idea of someone like Aerion being able to act with impunity, with no one even able to lay a hand on him because he is of royal blood.

In contrast, if you have Seven Kings of equal stature, from each of the Great Houses, then there are a lot more people that is of equal stature to a mad person who happens to be king of one of the regions.

Heck, even a banner lord from another region could hit a Mace Tyrell or Tywin Lannister in the face, and appeal to his own Great Lord for protection. In the case of a Targaryen, such refuge is not available, as they lord it over everyone.

Brandon and Rickard Stark being cooked to death by the Mad King being case in point.

[Ran]

Sure there is refuge: decamp across the Narrow Sea, or head to the Wall and take the black.

Aerys got his for burning them, so I'm not sure what the issue is.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Lots of good Targaryens, and the realm, on the whole, was better for the fact that it was unified. Fewer wars, greater prosperity, etc.

That's a very contentious statement, and the subject of much debate on the forums, as you well know. It is not exactly a statement of fact.

EDIT

For example, was the North better off under Targaryen rule too?

[Rill Redthorn]

Dunk's quite a good fighter actually -- in a melee, not with a lance. Lances are show weapons -- in a real fight they're good for the first charge, if that, and then you drop them and use your hand-to-hand weapons. Dunk wasn't able to train with lance very much at all while squiring for Ser Arlan because they didn't have a home with a tilting yard.

However, we find in "The Mystery Knight" that Dunk is quite capable with a sword "and even better with a battle axe." One of my favorite parts of that story is, after Dunk gets scammed on the jousting field by a "professional tourney knight", one of the bad guys assumes he can't fight at all. Dunk tells him, "I'm better with a sword," but the guy doesn't believe him. Then Dunk disembowels him -- a fighter much more experienced that he was, and Dunk was injured at the time to boot.

Have you noticed that GRRM draws a very firm line between the "show knights" like Loras, who only have experience in tourneys, and the knights who have the "true steel" -- professional warriors like Barristan Selmy? Dunk is no show knight, nor was he training to be one; he was training to be muscle-for-hire. Jousting was never going to be a huge part of his life. Loras is "good at knocking men off a horse with a stick" and not much good at all in real combat for real stakes.

This is why Lyanna (probably) was able to pull off her "Knight of the Laughing Tree" trick. Jousting is much more about horsemanship, agility, and aim than a melee is. Dunk's horsemanship is quite poor, his agility average, and his aim untrained in that we never see him working with any kind of a ranged weapon at all. But while Lyanna could conceivably win a joust, she'd have been laid flat in a melee; she just didn't have the size or muscle mass.

Dunk's realization in "The Hedge Knight" was all about him understanding that his job was not to win tourneys, but to win fights -- and if that requires knocking your opponent into the mud and beating the snot out of him, then that's what you do, because that works really well if you have Dunk's size, strength, and reach.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Dunk's quite a good fighter actually -- in a melee, not with a lance. Lances are show weapons -- in a real fight they're good for the first charge, if that, and then you drop them and use your hand-to-hand weapons. Dunk wasn't able to train with lance very much at all while squiring for Ser Arlan because they didn't have a home with a tilting yard.

However, we find in "The Mystery Knight" that Dunk is quite capable with a sword "and even better with a battle axe." One of my favorite parts of that story is, after Dunk gets scammed on the jousting field by a "professional tourney knight", one of the bad guys assumes he can't fight at all. Dunk tells him, "I'm better with a sword," but the guy doesn't believe him. Then Dunk disembowels him -- a fighter much more experienced that he was, and Dunk was injured at the time to boot.

Have you noticed that GRRM draws a very firm line between the "show knights" like Loras, who only have experience in tourneys, and the knights who have the "true steel" -- professional warriors like Barristan Selmy? Dunk is no show knight, nor was he training to be one; he was training to be muscle-for-hire. Jousting was never going to be a huge part of his life. Loras is "good at knocking men off a horse with a stick" and not much good at all in real combat for real stakes.

This is why Lyanna (probably) was able to pull off her "Knight of the Laughing Tree" trick. Jousting is much more about horsemanship, agility, and aim than a melee is. Dunk's horsemanship is quite poor, his agility average, and his aim untrained in that we never see him working with any kind of a ranged weapon at all. But while Lyanna could conceivably win a joust, she'd have been laid flat in a melee; she just didn't have the size or muscle mass.

Dunk's realization in "The Hedge Knight" was all about him understanding that his job was not to win tourneys, but to win fights -- and if that requires knocking your opponent into the mud and beating the snot out of him, then that's what you do, because that works really well if you have Dunk's size, strength, and reach.

OK. I've only just finished the Hedge Knight. So I haven't read any of Dunk's later adventures. Glad to hear that he improves signficantly from his showing in the first story.

[Ran]

FNR,

The North was indeed better off, as one can surmise by the fact that up to Robert's Rebellion, the North was one of the most staunchly royalist regions.

Prior to the unification, there was a war going on, somewhere, in the Seven Kingdoms in almost every year. Smaller scale, yes, than the big civil wars, but they add up.

Rill,

He's had time to actually train in the later stories. In THK he was just above a raw new guy.

GRRM actually considers Loras Tyrell quite a dangerous fighter, and has said so, as when he mused on dangerous warriors in the series and named the Clegane brothers and Loras; and of course we know he performed notable deeds at the Blackwater and Dragonstone.

[Rill Redthorn]

OK. I've only just finished the Hedge Knight. So I haven't read any of Dunk's later adventures. Glad to hear that he improves signficantly from his showing in the first story.

Given the limited training he had, and the crappy shape of his armor, I think Dunk did well just to survive in "The Hedge Knight." Think of what his side was up against! He's still very new there, too, and very scared and off-balance.

By the second story he's gotten a lot more confident overall and he wins a very tough fight one-on-one against a much more experienced opponent.

Then by the third story I would characterize him as "Guy you really don't want to pick a hand-to-hand fight with. Seriously."

[Free Northman Reborn]

FNR,The North was indeed better off, as one can surmise by the fact that up to Robert's Rebellion, the North was one of the most staunchly royalist regions.Prior to the unification, there was a war going on, somewhere, in the Seven Kingdoms in almost every year. Smaller scale, yes, than the big civil wars, but they add up.Rill,He's had time to actually train in the later stories. In THK he was just above a raw new guy.GRRM actually considers Loras Tyrell quite a dangerous fighter, and has said so, as when he mused on dangerous warriors in the series and named the Clegane brothers and Loras; and of course we know he performed notable deeds at the Blackwater and Dragonstone.

But are we given any examples - in the World Book perhaps - of any real benefits the North gained from unification? I ask about the World Book, because the evidence from the main series seems to contradict that.

The Stony Shore growing less populated, the Gift being abandoned, rebellions, Iron born invasions and Wildling incursions being left to the North to deal with.

The Kingsroad in disrepair.

What real benefits to the North are we actually told about? Which wars were they actually spared from? None of the southern kingdoms could threaten them on their home territory in any case, due to geographical isolation.

So whether the Lannisters, Arryns or Durrandons wanted to threaten them or not, that was not really a problem for the North.

The only problematic foes were the Ironborn and the Wildlings, and from these the Iron Throne did not spare them at all.

In fact, the Watch went from 10k men to just 1k men under Targ rule, leading to greater wildling problems than ever before.

I ask these questions because I am genuinely perplexed by this argument. I can fully see how unification benefited the highly interdependent Southern kingdoms. But I really cannot see one example of where it benefited the North.

[HexMachina]

Given the limited training he had, and the crappy shape of his armor, I think Dunk did well just to survive in "The Hedge Knight." Think of what his side was up against! He's still very new there, too, and very scared and off-balance.

By the second story he's gotten a lot more confident overall and he wins a very tough fight one-on-one against a much more experienced opponent.

Then by the third story I would characterize him as "Guy you really don't want to pick a hand-to-hand fight with. Seriously."

Still not great with a lance ;)

[Rill Redthorn]

Still not great with a lance ;)

Nope, he still sucks with a lance and probably always will, heh. (Loved Egg telling him "You really shouldn't joust, you know," or something similar.)