What are the current states of military forces is Westeros?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

What's the reason that the Vale number is so high?

In a blink 6 Lords gathered 6k men and I kind of remember they said they could call many more just themselves.

And there are maaaany more Lords, besides the pool of Seagull port.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I understand the 15 000, but didn't Forley Prester save 4000 from the Battle of the Camps? And didn't Daven bring another 1500 - 2000 survivors from his father's host?

They are included in the 15,000. That's just a rough estimate. The sources for the 3,000 are better. They consist of the 1,000 surviving Westermen on Dragonstone, the 500 men with Kevan, the "half the size of the Freys" at Riverrun (=>1000) Westermen under Daven, the 250 Westermen with Jaime, and the forces of the Mountain and in KL itself.

What's the reason that the Vale number is so high?

The six Lords Declarent could field 20,000 men. And one of them wasn't even a proper Lord with men of his own. Since they are unlikely to represent more than half the strength of the Vale (most regions seem to have 10-20 lordships on their level and we know a lot of names already), the total number has to be at least twice that.

[TheCrannogDweller]

They are included in the 15,000. That's just a rough estimate. The sources for the 3,000 are better. They consist of the 1,000 surviving Westermen on Dragonstone, the 500 men with Kevan, the "half the size of the Freys" at Riverrun (=>1000) Westermen under Daven, the 250 Westermen with Jaime, and the forces of the Mountain and in KL itself.

That doesn't sound right.

If Forley Prester saved 4000 and Daven saved a 1000 more (because, IIRC, the veterans from Forley's host were sent to train Stafford's army, so there is some overlap there) then that would mean that between The Fords and the Blackwater, Tywin lost around 10 000 men (half his army). Isn't that a bit too steep?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

That doesn't sound right.

If Forley Prester saved 4000 and Daven saved a 1000 more (because, IIRC, the veterans from Forley's host were sent to train Stafford's army, so there is some overlap there) then that would mean that between The Fords and the Blackwater, Tywin lost around 10 000 men (half his army). Isn't that a bit too steep?

Tywin sent his men home to get a last harvest.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Apologies to the Stormland guys.

I started out from the point of view that they can raise around 30k men (having the third least men in Westeros, after Dorne in 2nd lowest place and the Ironborn in the bottom spot).

After that, my impression was that they had lost a heck of a lot of men in Stannis's various battles. I thought the Blackwater was a slaugther for them, but then I have never really grasped exactly what went down in that chaotic battle. Who were Stormlanders, who were Reachmen sworn to Stannis, who were Lannisters and who were Lyseni Sellsails etc?

So I stand corrected. If the Stormlands have only lost like 5000 men to date, then they are also sitting at around 25k now, along with the North.

EDIT

Regarding the Lannisters:

The Whispering Wood was a wholesale slaughter. Of the 15k men there, maybe 10k were slaughtered, and the rest are probably Broken Men now.

At the Battle of the Camps, I recall there were 3 camps, between the various rivers, and two of the three were slaughtered, with the third withdrawing in some type of decent fashion.

So that's another few thousand men slauthtered. Make it 3000, as I can't really recall any reference to the exact numbers.

Then Tywin's various attempted crossings of the Trident were repelled with heavy losses. Make that 2000 lost.

Then they probably lost a couple of thousand between the Green Fork, Duskendale, the Blackwater, and the general battles in the Riverlands. Make that another 2000 losses.

And the Oxcross was apparently an utter slaughter. Make it 80% of the estimated 10k men there killed.

So that's a total loss of 10k+3k+2k+2k+8k. That's 25,000 men dead.

And that excludes general losses that ocurr over the course of a campaign, from desertions, disease, and petty skirmishes in the Riverlands. It also excludes any losses to the Greatjon and Rickard Karstark's ravaging of the Westerlands, after Ocross.

So I think 25k losses are a very low estimate, for the West.

[Boarsbane]

Apologies to the Stormland guys.

I started out from the point of view that they can raise around 30k men (having the third least men in Westeros, after Dorne in 2nd lowest place and the Ironborn in the bottom spot).

After that, my impression was that they had lost a heck of a lot of men in Stannis's various battles. I thought the Blackwater was a slaugther for them, but then I have never really grasped exactly what went down in that chaotic battle. Who were Stormlanders, who were Reachmen sworn to Stannis, who were Lannisters and who were Lyseni Sellsails etc?

So I stand corrected. If the Stormlands have only lost like 5000 men to date, then they are also sitting at around 25k now, along with the North.

EDIT

Regarding the Lannisters:

The Whispering Wood was a wholesale slaughter. Of the 15k men there, maybe 10k were slaughtered, and the rest are probably Broken Men now.

At the Battle of the Camps, I recall there were 3 camps, between the various rivers, and two of the three were slaughtered, with the third withdrawing in some type of decent fashion.

So that's another few thousand men slauthtered. Make it 3000, as I can't really recall any reference to the exact numbers.

Then Tywin's various attempted crossings of the Trident were repelled with heavy losses. Make that 2000 lost.

Then they probably lost a couple of thousand between the Green Fork, Duskendale, the Blackwater, and the general battles in the Riverlands. Make that another 2000 losses.

And the Oxcross was apparently an utter slaughter. Make it 80% of the estimated 10k men there killed.

So that's a total loss of 10k+3k+2k+2k+8k. That's 25,000 men dead.

And that excludes general losses that ocurr over the course of a campaign, from desertions, disease, and petty skirmishes in the Riverlands. It also excludes any losses to the Greatjon and Rickard Karstark's ravaging of the Westerlands, after Ocross.

So I think 25k losses are a very low estimate, for the West.

There weren't 15,000 men at Whispering Wood or Robb would of been crushed, there were like 2,000. Camps was a slaughter but Prester still manages to retreat in good order with 4,000 men.

[Free Northman Reborn]

There weren't 15,000 men at Whispering Wood or Robb would of been crushed, there were like 2,000. Camps was a slaughter but Prester still manages to retreat in good order with 4,000 men.

There were 15,000.

[Boarsbane]

There were 15,000.

Jaime's army was a total of 15,000 but there weren't 15,000 at Whispering Wood.

[TheCrannogDweller]

There were 15,000.

Jaime's total army was 15 000 men. Of those, only 4000 survived the two battles (Whispering Wood and Camps) and retreated to the Golden Tooth.

[khalhotpie]

so based on my own estimates (first page) and other peoples here we can assume that

a) the north and lannisters are now a shell of what they once where

b ) dorne is ready for war but isnt an impressively large force anyway

c) stormlands still has some significant strength left to milk even after blackwater but is scattered amongst various lords

d) the iron islands and the vale have a sigificant force left , the tyrells were the strongest but now massively more powerful than anyone left

e) the stormlands + crownlands various lords . golden company, dorne, iron islands and tyrells are all about to get into it

f) LF if he can sit this one out has a hellva strong hand now

[E-Ro]

Apologies to the Stormland guys.

I started out from the point of view that they can raise around 30k men (having the third least men in Westeros, after Dorne in 2nd lowest place and the Ironborn in the bottom spot).

After that, my impression was that they had lost a heck of a lot of men in Stannis's various battles. I thought the Blackwater was a slaugther for them, but then I have never really grasped exactly what went down in that chaotic battle. Who were Stormlanders, who were Reachmen sworn to Stannis, who were Lannisters and who were Lyseni Sellsails etc?

So I stand corrected. If the Stormlands have only lost like 5000 men to date, then they are also sitting at around 25k now, along with the North.

:agree: It is an honest mistake. Here are the reach houses with Stannis at the blackwater

House Fossoway: Both the red apple and green apple branches apparently had their house heads present at the parley with Cortnay Penrose, and Ser Jon, the head of the green apple Fossoways, even offered to fight Penrose in single combat for Stannis. Even when "Renlys Ghost" came in, they seem to have fought on the side of Stannis all the way up to the end, as Lothor Brune earned his nickname as "Apple Eater" for killing two Fossoways before capturing Ser Jon. Interestingly, Garlan Tyrell is married to a Fossoway...

House Mullendore: Ser Mark Mullendore is mostly memorable for being that knight with the monkey who tried to get in Briennes pants. House Mullendore is apparently sworn to House Hightower, who followed the Tyrells in abandoning the Baratheons, then joining the Lannisters. And yet Ser Mark lost part of his arm (and his monkey) fighting for Stannis at Blackwater.

House Crane: Parmen Crane was one of 3 former members of The Rainbow Guard, along with Guyard Morrigen and Bryce Caron, who joined Stannis after Renlys death. Interestingly, while Morrigen and Caron were Stormlanders, House Crane are Tyrell bannermen. Upon additional research though, House Crane is tied to House Florent by marriage, which might explain this particular case. Parmen was last seen being taken prisoner at Bittenbridge by Tarly.

House Varner: This isn't really a house we know too much about, except that their lord was also around at the parley, and injured his knee at Blackwater before being captured, but this house is still from The Reach.

And the florents. But those all took very light losses storming the city, mostly the fleet took the damage from the wildfire. Then many men switched sides. It is rather confusing, I admit. But the stormlords should have much of their strength left.

[Nyrhex]

There were 15,000.

Jaime's entire host was 15,000 men. He left 12,000 foot, and a quarter of his 2-3,000 cavalry at Riverrun for the siege. He left with "three quarters" of his horse, meaning ~1,500-2,250 cavalry to chase the Blackfish. Robb had 6,000 cavalry with him at the WW, and lost one per 10 Lannisters, meaning no more than 200 men. At the Camps, he engaged (with ~5,800 cavalry) two camps, each 4,000 foot strong. The remaining Lannister cavalry defected to him (freeriders), and Prester in the southern camp retreated with his 4,000 men when he saw the other two camps lost. At most, 10,000 men lost if we combine both battles, Jaime's ~2,000 cavalry and another 8,000 foot.

[Lord Reaver]

Surely no where near 40k for the Iron Islands? They can't be that densely populated, I thought they just evened the odds by having a warrior culture.

Ironborn military 101:

1. Every sailor is also a soldier (this is at once both the Ironborn's strength and weakness, as it allows them not to "waste" people as sailors, but also means their ships are less maneuvrable in battle, and that having knights is right out), thus, by estimating the number of ships and number of soldiers pr. ship, we can get an estimate of the Ironborn numbers.

2. We must separate between the Iron Fleet and the total Ironborn forces. Forgetting this is the first mistake people do.

3. The Iron Fleet is 100 ships, each with at least 100 men. That means it alone represents a force of 10+k fighting men.

4. According to SSM, each major lord can field as many ships as the Iron Fleet, though these will be lesser (roughly a third) in size of the ships of the Iron Fleet. Depending on how many lords are "major", the exact number is uncertain, but certainly it will be in the hundreds, since there are about 30 houses on the Iron Islands (that we know of), and we can't assume that the lesser houses have no ships at all.

5. We know that ships as big as the biggest in the Iron Fleet exist outside this, however, e.g. the Sea Bitch. This, then, must be considered when estimating average ship size.

6. Euron assaults the Shield islands with "a thousand ships". This is likely a case of "a fleeing man counts double", though the number of ships is certainly in the hundreds as seen in point 4 above. So, let us indeed estimate that the count is double, and say 500 ships.

7. Of those 500 ships, then, 100 are the Iron Fleet. The rest would carry between a third of that size (30 men) and up to the size of the Iron Fleet ones (100 men). So, let us assume there are indeed many more of the small ships, than the large ones, and assume an average ship size of 50 men.

8. 400 ships of average size 50 men, equals 20k. Adding the number from the Iron Fleet, we end up with an estimate of 30k Ironborn. Remember, this is quite a low estimate, both of the number of ships and the average ship size.

9. An absolute minimum could be assumed by saying that the average ship size is 30 men, in which case we end up with 400x30 = 12k + 10k = 22k.

10. A high estimate would be that there are indeed 1000 ships. So that's 900x50 = 45k +10k = 55k. And that's still assuming the average ship size is just 50 men.

[The_Leech_Lord]

Ironborn military 101:

1. Every sailor is also a soldier (this is at once both the Ironborn's strength and weakness, as it allows them not to "waste" people as sailors, but also means their ships are less maneuvrable in battle, and that having knights is right out), thus, by estimating the number of ships and number of soldiers pr. ship, we can get an estimate of the Ironborn numbers.

2. We must separate between the Iron Fleet and the total Ironborn forces. Forgetting this is the first mistake people do.

3. The Iron Fleet is 100 ships, each with at least 100 men. That means it alone represents a force of 10+k fighting men.

4. According to SSM, each major lord can field as many ships as the Iron Fleet, though these will be lesser (roughly a third) in size of the ships of the Iron Fleet. Depending on how many lords are "major", the exact number is uncertain, but certainly it will be in the hundreds, since there are about 30 houses on the Iron Islands (that we know of), and we can't assume that the lesser houses have no ships at all.

5. We know that ships as big as the biggest in the Iron Fleet exist outside this, however, e.g. the Sea Bitch. This, then, must be considered when estimating average ship size.

6. Euron assaults the Shield islands with "a thousand ships". This is likely a case of "a fleeing man counts double", though the number of ships is certainly in the hundreds as seen in point 4 above. So, let us indeed estimate that the count is double, and say 500 ships.

7. Of those 500 ships, then, 100 are the Iron Fleet. The rest would carry between a third of that size (30 men) and up to the size of the Iron Fleet ones (100 men). So, let us assume there are indeed many more of the small ships, than the large ones, and assume an average ship size of 50 men.

8. 400 ships of average size 50 men, equals 20k. Adding the number from the Iron Fleet, we end up with an estimate of 30k Ironborn. Remember, this is quite a low estimate, both of the number of ships and the average ship size.

9. An absolute minimum could be assumed by saying that the average ship size is 30 men, in which case we end up with 400x30 = 12k + 10k = 22k.

10. A high estimate would be that there are indeed 1000 ships. So that's 900x50 = 45k +10k = 55k. And that's still assuming the average ship size is just 50 men.

55k? how does the iron islands support so many?Its been a while since i read but is there any reference? the reach supports 80-100k, and by your count the iron isands field more men than the westerlands?

[Lord Reaver]

55k? how does the iron islands support so many?Its been a while since i read but is there any reference? the reach supports 80-100k, and by your count the iron isands field more men than the westerlands?

I said the 55k was a high estimate, didn't I ?

My estimates are based on the textual evidence given in the books for Euron's fleet, as well as the SSM where Martin explains that the Ironborn can field a lot more ships than just the Iron Fleet: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Re_Greyjoy_Fleet.

How these troops are supported isn't as relevant. If Martin wants them supported, he can do so. What matters is that you really can't get away from the Iron Fleet itself being 10k+. Then you add at least a couple hundreds of ships (since there has to be at least two major houses) of size 30 men. Then you add the contribution from the 25+ other Houses. I really don't see how you could possibly end up with less than about 25k.

If you want particular references, I can dig them up, of course.

[Ingelheim]

I said the 55k was a high estimate, didn't I ?

My estimates are based on the textual evidence given in the books for Euron's fleet, as well as the SSM where Martin explains that the Ironborn can field a lot more ships than just the Iron Fleet: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Re_Greyjoy_Fleet.

How these troops are supported isn't as relevant. If Martin wants them supported, he can do so. What matters is that you really can't get away from the Iron Fleet itself being 10k+. Then you add at least a couple hundreds of ships (since there has to be at least two major houses) of size 30 men. Then you add the contribution from the 25+ other Houses. I really don't see how you could possibly end up with less than about 25k.

If you want particular references, I can dig them up, of course.

Big Iron Island houses: Greyjoy (but...their navy is the Iron Fleet, IIRC), and Harlaw. Both should raise 200 ships easily.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ah yes, fair enough about Jaime's total force. It was 15k indeed, spread between the Whispering Wood and the Camps. So the total losses were around 10k from the Whispering Wood and the Camps.

Then another 8k from Oxcross.

Then we add the combined losses from:

The Green Fork

All the minor skirmishes in the Riverlands+the couple of moderate battles they engaged in before Robb came down from the Neck.

Tywin's failed attempt to cross the Trident.

The Umber and Karstark ravaging of the Westerlands after Oxcross.

The Blackwater

General losses to disease and desertion throughout the war.

The taking of Dragonstone, which was a bloody affair by the sound of it.

I would put all of those combined at around 5-7k. Putting their total losses at around 25k, I would say.

[Lord Reaver]

Big Iron Island houses: Greyjoy (but...their navy is the Iron Fleet, IIRC), and Harlaw. Both should raise 200 ships easily.

Nope. Go read the SSM. It's all about the ships OTHER than the Iron Fleet. He says "a lot more" than a hundred ships. Furthermore, he speaks about major houses in plural, so we know there's Greyjoy + at minimum 2 other major houses.

[Ingelheim]

Ah yes, fair enough about Jaime's total force. It was 15k indeed. So the total losses were around 10k from the Whispering Wood and the Camps.

Then another 8k from Oxcross.

Then we add the combined losses from:

The Green Fork

All the minor skirmishes in the Riverlands+the couple of moderate battles they engaged in before Robb came down from the Neck.

Tywin's failed attempt to cross the Trident.

The Umber and Karstark ravaging of the Westerlands after Oxcross.

The Blackwater

General losses to disease and desertion throughout the war.

The taking of Dragonstone, which was a bloody affair by the sound of it.

I would put all of those combined at around 5-7k. Putting their total losses at around 25k, I would say.

I would put all of those combined at around 10k.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I put the Ironborn total at 10k in the Iron Fleet and another 500 longships of 30 men each. That's 25k total at the start of the War.

In all of the battles to date - in the North and in the Reach, they must have lost at least a couple of thousand men. Let's call it 2000, to be conservative. So that brings them down to 23k.

Then we saw that half the Iron Fleet has been lost in the transit to Slaver's Bay. Victarrion has replaced some of them with captured ships, but these did not come with new Ironborn men. Instead, the surviving men had to be spread thinner to now man the newly captured ships.

So with 50 Iron Fleet ships lost, that's 5000 more men that are gone. So they are likely down to about 18,000.

After the Battle of Meereen - which is already underway, that is probably doing to go down by another couple of thousand or so. So they pretty much have around 15k men left in total. Of which around 5000 are in Meereen, and maybe a tad more than 10,000 are about to attack the Reach.