Septa Lemore is not Ashara Dayne

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This again. sigh I'm not going to argue this, you non beleivers can have this thread as a haven. All the evidence in the world won't convince you otherwise.

What evidence? What evidence is there that she's actually Ashara? "Ashara Dayne might be alive and here's a woman who's a mystery, ergo she must be Ashara" isn't evidence.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You actually brought up a point that I've actually never seen either side acknowledge: Connington knew Ashara and had danced with her. If she were Lemore, he'd recognize her in his POV or think of her in those terms. It's such a "no shit" thing once you think of it (not a knock on you at all; if anything it should've been brought up long before now).

This is what their interaction is pretty much:

"Where in the seven hells is Haldon?" Griff complained to Lady Lemore. "How long should it take to buy three horses?"

She shrugged. "My lord, wouldn't it be safer to leave the boy here aboard the boat?"

Notice that while Jon refers to himself as "Griff", not only he calls her Lemore but Lemore DOES know who he is or at least, who he isn't. Some sellsword: she knows he's a lord. Why the need of secrecy?

"Safer, yes. Wiser, no. He is a man grown now, and this is the road that he was born to walk." Griff had no patience for this quibbling. He was sick of hiding, sick of waiting, sick of caution. I do not have time enough for caution.

"He was sick of hiding". He was sick of lies and secrecy. Yet, he thinks of Lemore as Lemore and not Ashara.

He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.

The first phrase is what summarises everything. He had grown fond of Lemore. That's not something you said of a women you danced with 16 years ago when everything was happiness and joy. Also, he said that Lemore only had one mission and her mission is done. One could say that she's fooling Jon Connington, but really, what would be the point? Wouldn't they be in the same boat? Lemore knows he's Connington, why wouldn't she confess she's Ashara Dayne?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The first phrase is what summarises everything. He had grown fond of Lemore. That's not something you said of a women you danced with 16 years ago when everything was happiness and joy. Also, he said that Lemore only had one mission and her mission is done. One could say that she's fooling Jon Connington, but really, what would be the point? Wouldn't they be in the same boat? Lemore knows he's Connington, why wouldn't she confess she's Ashara Dayne?

I actually think that whoever Lemore is, she's "in on" the Blackfyre/whatever plot, and is actually contributing to the farce that JonCon is oblivious too. As you say, he just thinks of her as someone there to teach Aegon about religion. And if that's all she's actually there for, I'll eat my hat. So whatever it is she's really there for, JonCon isn't aware of it.

I think she knows who he really is, but he doesn't know who she really is. And obviously if she were Ashara, he'd 1. know she was and 2. know she played a bigger role in the whole thing than just being a religious tutor. I don't think JonCon would be nearly so dismissive of Arthur Dayne's sister.

[Ygrain]

Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.

This is another piece that puzzles me. So Ashara faked her suicide to be trained as a septa?

[Starspear]

The first phrase is what summarises everything. He had grown fond of Lemore. That's not something you said of a women you danced with 16 years ago when everything was happiness and joy.

Note: Jon Connington is gay. Confirmed by GRRM.(http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/5457/)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Note: Jon Connington is gay. Confirmed by GRRM.(http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/5457/)

he can't dance because he's gay??

Wait .. what have I just wrote???

[Starspear]

For those not aware of the "Vertigo" connection.

"Vertigo" is a Hitchcock film where the main female character fakes her death by jumping off a tower. She later reappears under a new identity.

The name of the book on which the film is based "D'entre Les morts" - the bold words are French. They are pronounced very very closely (especially to English speakers) to: Lemore.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is another piece that puzzles me. So Ashara faked her suicide to be trained as a septa?

Yes, that's it. Because whoever Lemore is, she is a septa. So, was Ashara trained as a septa? Varys asked her to train as a septa so she would eventually help them with Aegon?

Also, didn't Varys said that Aegon has been thought about the Faith since he was old enough to understand? How old is that? Because if he's been completely honest, they I doubt Lemore was with them since the beginning unless she also served as a nurse for him.

[Starspear]

he can't dance because he's gay??

Wait .. what have I just wrote???

You said: That's not something you said of a women you danced with 16 years ago when everything was happiness and joy. ("grown fond")

[Ygrain]

For those not aware of the "Vertigo" connection. Spoiler for anyone who has not seen the film and doesn't want to know the ending. GRRM is a big Hitchcock fan for the record.

"Vertigo" is a Hitchcock film where the main female character fakes her death by jumping off a tower. She later reappears under a new identity. A nun plays a part in the whole as well.

The name of the book on which the film is based "Entre Les morts" - the bold words are French. They are pronounced very very closely (especially to English speakers) to: Lemore.

That's a pretty interesting catch. Could you specify

what role the nun played?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You said: That's not something you said of a women you danced with 16 years ago when everything was happiness and joy. ("grown fond")

In fact, that's exactly what a man not attracted to a women might very well feel.

So, he had to be sexually attracted to Ashara Dayne to actually like her as a person and remember who she was? Ashara Dayne was the most beautiful woman during those times and she was handmaid of Elia. I'm pretty sure he knew who she was and how she looked like.

[FalseSpring]

I think the most telling fact is that Tyrion doesn't mention her eye color. You could be an ugly as a dog, but if you have purple eyes, it's noticeable and one of the POVs would have off-handedly mentioned it.

[Starspear]

See my thread here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107733-septa-lemore-identity-summary-and-why-it-matters/

[Starspear]

I think the most telling fact is that Tyrion doesn't mention her eye color. You could be an ugly as a dog, but if you have purple eyes, it's noticeable and one of the POVs would have off-handedly mentioned it.

That is the recurring counter-argument. It IS valid - but not insurmountable and clearly not strong enough of an argument to outright disregard all the arguments for.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the most telling fact is that Tyrion doesn't mention her eye color. You could be an ugly as a dog, but if you have purple eyes, it's noticeable and one of the POVs would have off-handedly mentioned it.

Especially when 1. Ashara's eyes are her standout feature and 2. Aegon is on the boat and also has purple eyes. After going on and on about Ashara's eyes, if Lemore is Ashara and the eyes aren't mentioned, that's pretty terrible writing. There's keeping something from being spoiled, and then there's artificially keeping something from the audience by having a character completely ignore something that should be one of the first things they notice. It's also pretty fucking noticeable if Aegon and his septa both have purple eyes.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I actually think that whoever Lemore is, she's "in on" the Blackfyre/whatever plot, and is actually contributing to the farce that JonCon is oblivious too. As you say, he just thinks of her as someone there to teach Aegon about religion. And if that's all she's actually there for, I'll eat my hat. So whatever it is she's really there for, JonCon isn't aware of it.

She might be Varys' spy and informs him often about what they do. I think Varys is perceptive enough to realise he's not JC's favourite person. Whatsoever, I don't think she's not a septa. Varys do want Aegon having an education, and why would he hire some chic to pass as a Septa? Wouldn't be easier to find a loyal septa to serve him as an informer?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She might be Varys' spy and informs him often about what they do. I think Varys is perceptive enough to realise he's not JC's favourite person. Whatsoever, I don't think she's not a septa. Varys do want Aegon having an education, and why would he hire some chic to pass as a Septa? Wouldn't be easier to find a loyal septa to serve him as an informer?

It's possible for her to have enough knowledge of the Faith to teach it without being an actual septa, perhaps. I've also seen the theory that she's Tyene Sand's mother, which again ties her back to the Martells.

[Starspear]

The recurring counter-argument. Not insurmountable.

Why don't you address the "Vertigo" parallel?

Why not address the Lady Lemore?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The recurring counter-argument. Not insurmountable.

Why don't you address the "Vertigo" parallel?

Why not address the Lady Lemore?

Is the nun in Vertigo the woman who faked her death? No? OK then.

Is Ashara the only lady in the world or the only lady who could feasibly be Lemore? No? OK then.

Does it stretch the limits of credibility that both Aegon and Lemore would have purple eyes without Tyrion noticing? Yes? OK then.

You're not exactly blowing my skirt up here.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's possible for her to have enough knowledge of the Faith to teach it without being an actual septa, perhaps. I've also seen the theory that she's Tyene Sand's mother, which again ties her back to the Martells.

I thought about that too, but in GRRMgenetis is possible to have blonde hair when both your parents have dark hair? She also has blue eyes. What are the colours of Lemore?

Also, didn't Arianne and Tyenne visited her mother? How could they if she's been in Essos for at least 10 years.