Septa Lemore is not Ashara Dayne

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

With Ashara, it doesn't happen. Everything related to Ashara is related to Jon Snow and Ned Stark. If she's Lemore, then GRRM has been sending hints of her being related to the Starks only to suddenly place her with the Targaryens? That serves no purpose at all, in fact, it makes the writing sloppy. Not because "he's not my bitch", it's because he's better than that.

I think is the operative point. As you say, JonCon was always brought up in the context of the Targaryens and Rhaegar specifically. Whereas Ashara's references have almost always been in the context of her relationship to the Starks. Even Barristan's memories of her are Stark-related, in that they go back to the Harrenhal tournament. So by that metric, if Ashara shows up again, it would be in a context related to the Starks, not Aegon.

Which is just another reason, of many, why the "Howland married Ashara" theory is so cool to me.

[Chebyshov]

Can't really say anything that would convince you otherwise, seeing how strongly you feel about it. But sometimes shortcuts have to be taken for plot convenience. Mentioning purple eyes on Lemore would have been no different from naming her outright as Ashara, so what can you do?

Personally, I do have a pet theory that Ashara's eyes may not have been as spectacular as Barristan remembers and hearsay would lead one to believe, so when you add 20 years and some rough living to it all, they may not be so noteworthy. Of course this is just speculation.

Cat calls them "haunting" and Meera calls out the color in TKotLT story, so I'd say they're a prominent feature.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Which is just another reason, of many, why the "Howland married Ashara" theory is so cool to me.

Tbh, it makes more sense.

[Blazfemur]

This thread kinda started like a cynical answer to another thread and after some PMs about the subject, I simply expanded it and made it more serious. Anyway...

My point is that sometimes a mistake we commit as readers is to mix what we want to happen with what is going to happen. And I think that's a bit the case with Ashara Dayne being alive and being Septa Lemore (or anyone else), due to evidence that is actually rather forced into it instead of actually being proof of anything.

I wasn't active in this board before Dance, but I've read that it was expected for Aegon to manifest in some form, either real or fake (let's not discuss that now) due to Dany's visions in ACOK. Also, when a new character is introduced and in this case, Aegon being kinda important, he also comes with a bunch of new characters that not necessarily are all important. Jon Connington and Lemore, for example.

I searched the threads for some keywords like JC, Aegon and Griff in threads before the date of publication of Dance and I found that, when the first Tyrion chapter was released (2008) it was pretty much obvious that "Griff" was Jon Connington and "Young Griff" was meant to be "Aegon". Some things suggested were:

- Connington had a son (with Ashara, always Ashara!), Young Griff, and he was going to pass him as Aegon

- Connington found out some kid and he was trying to pass him as Aegon.

- Connington escaped with the real Aegon. Couple of people said that Connington switched baby Aegon. Congrats to those, whoever they are! They were VERY close.

While none of these are completely true, there is about 90% of accuracy in the events due to one simple fact: Connington wasn't the plot twist here, and I would even say that not even Aegon was. The twist was that Varys was behind him being alive all along (Again, let's not discuss Aegon's being real or not). JC being not the twist allows GRRM to not showing much mystery about him but directly show us the man that believes Aegon is who Varys claims to be. His "importance" is that he's our eyes and ears once Tyrion is away. A pm I received showed me how a thread/post wanted to imply the future importance of Lady Dustin in the general plot (or something like that) while this person and myself thought that there is no development of Dustin before her appearance for her to be actually a mayor player: there is not mention of her at all up until Dance, while Connington, a relatively minor character, is heavily mentioned in books before Dance and doesn't appear out of thin air. GRRM doesn't work that way, apparently.

So, I'll go backwards about his story, so we can see how elements of what we know now in Dance, are presented previously.

First, what we found out about him in Dance?

(1) He loved Rhaegar and people thought they were friends (whether romantically or only as a friendship, doesn't matter)

(2) He was the Lord of Griffin's Roost, a House from the Stormlands, after his father died.

(3) He was proud of his father's lands.

(4) He was Aerys' Hand during the Robelion although he was too young and inexperienced

(5) He lost the Battle of the Bells, which indirectly, caused Robert to kill Rhaegar because he escaped.

(6) He was exiled by Aerys

(7) and stripped from his lands

(8) He became a high ranked warrior among the Golden Company, and probably, could have been the next commander. This meant he can fight and know battles.

(9) In Westeros, people thought he drank himself to death.

later, in books we have:

aGoT

There is no mention of him, not his family. Either the character didn't exist yet or there was no need to introduce him that early. No sign of Aegon, either, except that he was killed by Gregor.

aCoK

JC is not mentioned by name, neither are the Conningtons. Only, Red Ronnet, Knight of Griffin's Roost being in Renly's camp as a man from the Stormlands (2) and later, as a war prisoner when he switches to Stannis. He's defeated by Brienne (this is later important for #3 and #7) and we know his sigil is a Griffin (it's on his shield)

aSoS

There are few mentions of Jon Connington as "lord Connington", except once when he's called fully "Lord Jon Connington". There is no way for us readers to know that those two Con are the same at first.

-Barristan says LC was close to Rhaegar (1), although Arthur was his best friend.

-Arya is told that Robert Baratheon was hurt in Stoney Sept by LC, hand of the King (4), Battle that Robert said Ned won (5). About LC, was said that he fought well and hurt Hoster Tully and killed Denys Arryn, among other men (8).

-Jaime remembers that there was a Hand Griffin (4), exiled (6) besides the Hand Merrywheater and the Hands were quickly and easily replaced. We don't know why until Jaime tells later Brienne the story of the BotB, and he mentioned that the griffin was exiled by Aerys (6) due to the BotB being lost (5). He doesn't says his name nor his House Name, but we already know it's the same griffin who was as Hand in Arya's chapter, Lord Connington, because there he's called Hand. He also says that this was the Battle that convinced Aerys that the situation was really bad (5).

-Jaime reads the full name, JC, and his title in the White Book, in Barristan's entry. So, we're meant to believe all the "Lord Conningtons" mentioned are Jon, I guess.

-Finally, the Tourney at Harrenhall. Ashara Dayne is meant to dance with "a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf". That griffin, I think, it's meant to be JC. I'll get to that later.

So, to summarize Jon in Storm: He was already a Lord (2), friend of Rhaegar(1), named Hand by Aerys at a probably young age (4) but he didn't last long. Fought the Battle of the Bells and lost (5) although he fought well (8). Got exiled due to that (6). The Conningtons's sigil was a griffin. That's 5/9.

*Here Ronnet finally appears as a Connington, in the apendix, but there is no real way to know if they're close relatives yet. Also, there is mention of some other Connington in the White book, who isn't even important. Either way, the whole book mentions A LOT the relationship between griffins and Conningtons, enough for readers to guess accurately that Griff and YG were Connington and a young man under his care

aFfC

We have a lot of info about Ronnet and Jon here, and Ronnet's encounter with Jaime gives some hints about #3 and #7. In clash we knew that Brienne defeated Ronnet and here we know he's an asshole to Brienne because his father wanted him to marry her for some very specific reason, related to Jon's falling from grace: the Conningtons now don't have much lands. When Jaime meets Ronnet in Harrenhall, seeing his sigil realises he is related to Jon Connington, who he referes to as "dead" (9). The whole story about him, according to Jaime is everything we've been told already in the previous book and add few more details that are later confirmed and are important for his motivations besides his love for Rhaegar. His lands and gold were taken away from him (7) and he was exiled across the Sea (6). There, he drank himself to dead (8). Robert then distributed his lands among his followers while Ronnet's father got nothing but the castle. Jon had no more family besides his father's cousin, apparently. (OT but while investigating, I found a SSM about Jon: "Nor was Robert willing to recall Lord Jon from exile, since he had been among Prince Rhaegar's closest friends". In the Arianne Chapter (WOW), we know Jon didn't like Robert that much. If Daeron sand knew, probably he wasn't the only one. Maybe that's why Robert took everything away from him and distributed his lands among his friend. ¡Bastardo! Now I hate him even more).

By the time he's introduced in Dance we have his full story and motivations. We had other's version of what happened to him and now we have his own version of the story and what he plans to do next. He can act as a character because we know already what we're meant to know about him and how he got there. That doesn't happen at all with Ashara Dayne for her to be alive and reveal something important later. Again, that's not how GRRM works and her being Lemore makes little sense, unless he's planning something completely unexpected and pointless and I think we don't have much time for that.

It's hard to prove something based in not having evidence, but let's see what we know about Ashara, despite being gorgeous, sister of Arthur and blah:

- Cat and Cersei think she might be Jon's mother.

- Edric Dayne and his family think she killed herself due to Ned.

- Harwin has heard that Ned and Ashara had "a thing" during the Tourney.

First, everything that is mentioned about Ashara is related to the Starks, while everything we know about Connington is related to the Targaryens. I think that says a lot.

Second, notice the difference between her death and Jon's "death": Here, Varys needed him to remain undercover, so, he makes up a dishonouring and simple credible death for people to not ask questions about him: he drank himself to death. And when Connington returns, he can say easily "nope, you all think I died, but I didn't and I'm real". Ashara, otoh, died in a way that has made people keep talking about it, something Varys said he doesn't need. She died in her own castle, and probably with witnesses who we know later try to find her body. What is she going to say now she's "back"? "That wasn't me, I pushed some girl so you think I died"?.

There is the story of they both (probably) dancing in Harrenhall, and that makes people think that they know each other. Personally, I think that disproves even more the fact that Ashara is Lemore. Not only Connington says that he has "grew fond" of Lemore but he doesn't think about her as Ashara once. Ned's thoughts about "the promise" weren't specific but they hinted something. There is nothing about Jon's thoughts that could hint he knew Lemore before. Jon's thoughts, unlike Ned, hide nothing, not even the fact that he's not shy about killing the Usurper's line (his children) or killing Varys in retribution of the humiliation he has asked him to live through.

IF -and I'm being generous with the IF- Ashara is alive and she's Lemore, she has no real motivation nor reason to be there with Aegon or anywhere, really. She's not his mother only because she has stretch marks. She's with Jon, a man who could easily recognise her and he doesn't even think about her as Ashara. Lemore might be someone, probably, but not Ashara. Ashara's story is related to Ned Stark, and having her with Aegon would be pointless and unnecessary for Varys. I'd even say that it's dangerous to have her close to Aegon if he's fake or his mother. She's not important enough to be revealed as a mayor plot later either, and taking Connington as an example, we would have found out already if she was: we're only two books left to worry about minor characters being suddenly revealed.

That's my two (well, more than two) cents while I'm back to my planet a few days and keep myself busy with real life. Enjoy and discuss.

havent read the thread in it's entirety, but i do agree 100% that Lemore is NOT Ashara Dayne.

That being said, Septa Lemore is NOT Septa Lemore, i have a strong feeling it IS someone, someone of importance. She was pregnant, had a kid, she might have been beautiful at one time when she was younger, tyrion suggests. She also appears to have a mischievous attitude, flirtacious at times, not like a Septa.

She's mothered someone. Someone important. Maybe not particularly important, but im thinking important blood (how great if she mothered a Robert Baratheon bastard?!) the twist there would be amazing.

But seriously, i think the subtle hitns tyrion suggests prove she may be someone of importance. Doubtfully Dayne, though.

[Ygrain]

What do you call the miracle of dragons? The "one-time event" (GRRM words) of Daenerys being resistant to fire?

Due to Daenerys feeling heat in the eggs and trying to place them in a brazier and Mirri performing a blood sacrifice where only death can pay for life, certainly not a deus ex machina. Not making any kind of reference to Lemore's eyes before revealing her as Ashara would be the same as introducing that one-time event without that buildup.

That wasn't the point. Connington must have known Lemore for a good decade now (even if she is *just* Lemore). If her eyes remind him of anything, they would have done so many years ago, and there would be no plausible reason do drop such an observation in his POV chapters ("Oh hey, this lady whom I've known for many years, her eyes are like Rhaegar's!").

Do you think this wouldn't be a recurring reminder?

Until further notice I shall remain convinced that Lemore is Serra Brighflame, Faegon's mother.

That's a theory I like best. Faking one's death during a deadly epidemics would be very easy, and inconspicuous. Plus, Lemore changes her clothes so that she is not recognized. Who would recognize Ashara in Essos?

[Starspear]

Due to Daenerys feeling heat in the eggs and trying to place them in a brazier and Mirri performing a blood sacrifice where only death can pay for life, certainly not a deus ex machina.

Hmm. So GRRM says it's a miracle one-time event. Then MMD gets her ritual all wrong. Then Daenerys doesn't burn up in the flames.

I flip to Deus Ex Machina and it reads: a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.

And now I'm confused... because from nowhere, Daenerys survives a burning pyre unscathed and her dragons hatch...

But at any rate, I personally think she's got dragonblood, and is resistant to fire, so for me, there's no Deus Ex either.

[Ygrain]

Hmm. So GRRM says it's a miracle one-time event. Then MMD gets her ritual all wrong. Then Daenerys doesn't burn up in the flames.

I flip to Deus Ex Machina and it reads: a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.

And now I'm confused... because from nowhere, Daenerys survives a burning pyre unscathed and her dragons hatch...

But at any rate, I personally think she's got dragonblood, and is resistant to fire, so for me, there's no Deus Ex either.

That miraculous one-time event was properly foreshadowed - this doesn't mean we should necessarily be able to predict this particular twist (or any other twist, because then we would have no twists at all) but when the twist comes, we must be able to see where this came from, and in this particular case, it's the hints which I listed for you above. The important parts are that something is going on with the eggs (which Dany has a close contact with, often holding them in her sleep), that she is compelled to put them into a source of heat, and that a blood sacrifice is required to bring something to life (now, what are the Targaryen words again? Fire and blood, as if a recipe).

And BTW, what makes you think that MMD got her ritual wrong? She kept Drogo alive and she had known he would be a veg. It worked exactly as she wanted.

[Starspear]

That miraculous one-time event was properly foreshadowed - this doesn't mean we should necessarily be able to predict this particular twist (or any other twist, because then we would have no twists at all) but when the twist comes, we must be able to see where this came from, and in this particular case, it's the hints which I listed for you above. The important parts are that something is going on with the eggs (which Dany has a close contact with, often holding them in her sleep), that she is compelled to put them into a source of heat, and that a blood sacrifice is required to bring something to life (now, what are the Targaryen words again? Fire and blood, as if a recipe).

And BTW, what makes you think that MMD got her ritual wrong? She kept Drogo alive and she had known he would be a veg. It worked exactly as she wanted.

Did you read another post of mine elsewhere?

Well - you're saying that there was a blood sacrifice. Life for a life. So MMD was sacrificed and Daenerys is a sorceress? Or Drogo was sacrificed, in which case MMD got it wrong, cause she gave Daenerys dragons. Like I said. Confusing.

[Ygrain]

Did you read another post of mine elsewhere?

Well - you're saying that there was a blood sacrifice. Life for a life. So MMD was sacrificed and Daenerys is a sorceress? Or Drogo was sacrificed, in which case MMD got it wrong, cause she gave Daenerys dragons. Like I said. Confusing.

Yes, MMD was the one sacrificed. - But we're off-topicking here. I was merely trying to illustrate the point that GRRM doesn't pull things out of nowhere.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes, MMD was the one sacrificed. - But we're off-topicking here. I was merely trying to illustrate the point that GRRM doesn't pull things out of nowhere.

It's the whole point of my OP but apparently... whooosh.

[Ygrain]

It's the whole point of my OP but apparently... whooosh.

The OP is 7 pages back :P

Perhaps I should also add that GRRM does not leave out crucial information.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The OP is 7 pages back :P

Perhaps I should also add that GRRM does not leave out crucial information.

Mostly decent writers don't either. Not even the very drunk.

[Bael's Bastard]

The reference in Feast identifies her solely with her eyes. It IS bad writing to make a feature that is noted often, have a character that analyzes eyes a number of times, and then have him describe her without making note of her eyes. Yeah, that is out of character for the character he has established through four-five books.

[Jarocal]

The reference in Feast identifies her solely with her eyes. It IS bad writing to make a feature that is noted often, have a character that analyzes eyes a number of times, and then have him describe her without making note of her eyes. Yeah, that is out of character for the character he has established through four-five books.

It is possible he never noticed her eyes being distracted by " a pair of shapely shells"

[Naturally Low Highborn]

One of the Sand Snakes was mothered by a Septa, wasn't she? Vested interest with a Dornish prince. Could this be Lemore?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

One of the Sand Snakes was mothered by a Septa, wasn't she? Vested interest with a Dornish prince. Could this be Lemore?

Could be. But Tyene and Arianne have visited Tyene's mother in the Reach. She's in Westeros while Lemore hasn't been for several years, it seems.

[Pod The Impaler]

Re: the OP.

Yeah, I am no fan of the Septa Lemore = Ashara theories, nor any of the cousin theories where Septa Lemore is secretly some other character (Elia ... Lyanna ... Mellario... Tysha ... etc.)

How about Lemore is just Lemore, a (possibly Dornish) woman who became a Septa after giving birth to a child out of wedlock?

[Bael's Bastard]

One of the Sand Snakes was mothered by a Septa, wasn't she? Vested interest with a Dornish prince. Could this be Lemore?

Seems possible, but if so, it would seem to have been done without Doran's knowledge, as Aegon seems to be news to him.

[Bael's Bastard]

Re: the OP.

Yeah, I am no fan of the Septa Lemore = Ashara theories, nor any of the cousin theories where Septa Lemore is secretly some other character (Elia ... Lyanna ... Mellario... Tysha ... etc.)

How about Lemore is just Lemore, a (possibly Dornish) woman who became a Septa after giving birth to a child out of wedlock?

I think the fact that Aegon and Jon are under false identities, and Tyrion's wondering who she is, contributes to people thinking she may be someone else we may know from the story. It may or may not be. I tend to think there is a decent chance Ashara could re-emerge at some point, and some chance that Lemore could be someone we have heard of before. I just don't buy that they are one and the same.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think the fact that Aegon and Jon are under false identities, and Tyrion's wondering who she is, contributes to people thinking she may be someone else we may know from the story. It may or may not be. I tend to think there is a decent chance Ashara could re-emerge at some point, and some chance that Lemore could be someone we have heard of before. I just don't buy that they are one and the same.

I think there is a chance open (very big, actually) that Lemore might be something else besides some septa devoted to the teaching of the Faith to Aegon. But the information so far is to vague to consider anyone in particular.

She's a "soiled" septa, meaning, she fits with the pattern of people Varys gets. None of them were actually "brought" by Varys, they were already escaping something and Varys used their predicaments into his plans because they're short of options. Her having gotten a baby only means she probably knows how to keep secrets.

And I think we're sure she's a septa. She used her septa clothes as a daily thing when they're alone and isolated. She needs to disguise herself as a merchant's daugther/wife for protection. Being disguised as a septa is dangerous for their mission, because it reeks "Westeros". So, she is a real septa who needs to disguise as something else to be safe. If she weren't actually a septa, she wouldn't need to use such clothes. At least, is how I see it.