Anybody hate how much Jaime refused to tell Blackfish?

[SerArthurHeath]

A lot of people seem to forget, that Jaime swore to Catelyn to never take up arms against Starks and Tullys (which the Blackfish probably knows), but now he is in Riverrun at the front of an army and besieging the castle of Catelyn's family and threatening to trebuchet his niece. Why does Jaime expect the Blackfish to trust him, if all of his former oaths have been broken by him?

Technically the besieging was already underway and the threatening hadn't happened yet

[ForgottenKnight]

It kept with his personality I thought. He didn't tell anyone about Aerys the Mad King trying to burn down King's Landing. Jamie never brags about the most honorable deeds he's done. He keeps that to himself and behaves more antagonistic...well he used to at least.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I'm reading Feast for Crows now, and it's really pissing me off reading Jaime's negotiation with the Blackfish.

Blackfish continues to make Jaime look like a scumbag because he didn't make good on his oath to Catelyn. Jaime did try to do that oath. But when he got to King's Landing neither Sansa and Arya were there. He had Brienne go to search for Sansa to try to do as he was asked but so far has been unable. And yet Jaime doesn't tell any of this to Blackfish, hence making himself look like a liar and very untrustworthy.

I dunno, I get that Blackfish might not believe him anyways, but it bothered me to not see Jaime even try to defend himself and then expect to be able to negotiate. At least he should let it be known that he's trying to do what he promised, but he made it seem like he didn't even care and thus made everything harder for himself for no good reason.

You forget the other part of the oath, the part of never taking up arms against Tullys and Starks, which Jaime clearly broke, when he led an army to the siege of Riverrun. Since the Blackfish knows, that Jaime swore to deliver Sansa and Arya, he probably knows about that part, too. So why should the Blackfish trust Jaime with anything, when he once again has proven, that he does not keep any vows/oaths?

[SerArthurHeath]

You forget the other part of the oath, the part of never taking up arms against Tullys and Starks, which Jaime clearly broke, when he led an army to the siege of Riverrun. Since the Blackfish knows, that Jaime swore to deliver Sansa and Arya, he probably knows about that part, too. So why should the Blackfish trust Jaime with anything, when he once again has proven, that he does not keep any vows/oaths?

He doesn't clearly break it, it's debatable either way. He doesn't take up any arms. He doesn't send any men to harm any Tully men. And with his actions, he directly prevents the slaughter of Tullys that would be utterly inevitable otherwise. The best he could have done would have been to order his men to let Edmure into the castle and then go home and stop the siege utterly. An order that would be disobeyed and still result in the annihilation of House Tully. Be practical.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Technically the besieging was already underway and the threatening hadn't happened yet

Technically, maybe, but I doubt the Blackfish would be impressed by that kind of rule-lawyering.

GRRM has said in a lot of interview, that besieging a castle was a major part of the military action during the Middle Ages, so I heavily doubt, that Catelyn Stark's oath could be interpreted as "You cannnot directly attack members of my family, but I am okay with you leading sieges of the castle I grew up in and that has been in possession of my family for 1000 years."

When Jaime went to Riverrun, the siege of the castle did not go well at all. With the food stores they had in Riverrun and the Freys's unwillingness to storm the castle and the Freys's difficulties of obtaining enough food for their troops, the Blackfish would have stood a very good chance of the Freys not getting Rvierrun. Only the arrival of Jaime Lannister with his army of Westermen and forced Riverlords and his threat of storming the castle got the Freys Riverrun.

[SerArthurHeath]

Technically, maybe, but I doubt the Blackfish would be impressed by that kind of rule-lawyering.

GRRM has said in a lot of interview, that besieging a castle was a major part of the military action during the Middle Ages, so I heavily doubt, that Catelyn Stark's oath could be interpreted as "You cannnot directly attack members of my family, but I am okay with you leading sieges of the castle I grew up in and that has been in possession of my family for 1000 years."

When Jaime went to Riverrun, the siege of the castle did not go well at all. With the food stores they had in Riverrun and the Freys's unwillingness to storm the castle and the Freys's difficulties of obtaining enough food for their troops, the Blackfish would have stood a very good chance of the Freys not getting Rvierrun. Only the arrival of Jaime Lannister with his army of Westermen and forced Riverlords and his threat of storming the castle got the Freys Riverrun.

You think nobody else would have stormed the castle, and Cersei and the other Lannisters would have let it lie? There would just be a glorious death for the Blackfish and he knows it.

[Mrs_Darcy]

You think nobody else would have stormed the castle, and Cersei and the other Lannisters would have let it lie? There would just be a glorious death for the Blackfish and he knows it.

Ser Ryman Frey clearly was a craven and Ser Emmon Frey did not want to damage his future possession, so without the Westerlanders they probably would have played "Hang Edmure" until the onset of winter would have made the siege too difficult.

If Cersei had sent the Westerlanders there without Jaime, they might have tried to storm the castle. The garrison of Riverrun and the Blackfish probably would have died, but at least this would have taken massive casualties from the Westerlanders and Jaime would not break yet another oath.

Even if somebody else would storm the castle the excuse "If I am not doing it, then someone else will do it" does not take change the fact, that by taking a vital part in the siege Jaime once again becomes an oathbreaker.

[Maia]

It kept with his personality I thought. He didn't tell anyone about Aerys the Mad King trying to burn down King's Landing.

Personally, I always thought that it was terribly irresponsible on Jaime's part not to tell anybody about the wildfire caches. Because even if nobody ignited them on purpose, any stray fire could have resulted in conflagration of KL that Aerys had desired. Now, several caches have been unearthed during the intervening 17 years, but I still have to wonder if there are some remaining (and becoming ever more dangerous and unstable). I also wonder about Varys, who probably knew about locations of the caches, allowing them to remain in place...

So, yea, this tarnishes Jaime's "greatest deed" a bit, IMHO. He stayed the execution, but the city still remained in acute jeopardy, and Jaime didn't even seem to realize it!

[Mrs_Darcy]

Personally, I always thought that it was terribly irresponsible on Jaime's part not to tell anybody about the wildfire caches. Because even if nobody ignited them on purpose, any stray fire could have resulted in conflagration of KL that Aerys desired. Now, several caches have been unearthed during the intervening 17 years, but I still have to wonder if there are some remaining (and becoming ever more dangerous and unstable). I also wonder about Varys, who probably knew about locations of the caches, allowing them to remain in place...

So, yea, this tarnishes Jaime's "greatest deed" a bit, IMHO. He stayed the execution, but the city still remained in acute jeopardy, and Jaime didn't even seem to realize it!

Most of the caches actually have not been found. They have found the caches in the dragonpit and in Baelor's sept, but even the cache in the Red Keep has not been found by Tyrion etc. . Additionally, all the seven gates should still contain their caches as well. There actually is a fan theory, that Cersei will burn down KL with the wildfire still left by Aerys and Jaime killing Aerys will not have saved KL.

There is a great fan theory, that says Cersei will use the wildfire to burn down KL.

[SerArthurHeath]

Personally, I always thought that it was terribly irresponsible on Jaime's part not to tell anybody about the wildfire caches. Because even if nobody ignited them on purpose, any stray fire could have resulted in conflagration of KL that Aerys desired. Now, several caches have been unearthed during the intervening 17 years, but I still have to wonder if there are some remaining (and becoming ever more dangerous and unstable). I also wonder about Varys, who probably knew about locations of the caches, allowing them to remain in place...So, yea, this tarnishes Jaime's "greatest deed" a bit, IMHO. He stayed the execution, but the city still remained in acute jeopardy, and Jaime didn't even seem to realize it!

I agree, though that's also in character for old Jaime who never seemed to get the concept of consequences

[gamegeknee]

I think it's a combination of what many of you have said. Jaime certainly cares a lot about his reputation, but he recognizes the fact that he can't change other's opinions of him through words. Especially with someone like the Blackfish who is essentially his worst enemy.

He probably should explain himself more often, but there aren't many reasonable people in these books.

The only way his reputation will be repaired is through a course of good deeds through the next two books. Even then, to some he will always just be The Kingslayer, or the sister-lover.

[Maia]

Most of the caches actually have not been found. They have found the caches in the dragonpit and in Baelor's sept, but even the cache in the Red Keep has not been found by Tyrion etc.

I suspect that Varys must have had it removed, because he was using open fire, braziers, etc. down there. Also, the Red Keep didn't go up in flames when Cersei burned down the Tower of the Hand.

Additionally, all the seven gates should still contain their caches as well. There actually is a fan theory, that Cersei will burn down KL with the wildfire still left by Aerys and Jaime killing Aerys will not have saved KL.

Don't see how she could do it on purpose, since nobody knows where the caches are, apart from, possibly, Varys. But it seems increasingly likely that KL would experience massive riots in the near future, and fires go hand in hand with them, so the city may burn that way.

OTOH, Varys should be aware of such a possibility, and he wants Aegon to have the capital intact and is in the best position to know locations of the remaining caches. So, he has either already dealt with them or is in the process of doing so. IMHO, YMMV.

[SerArthurHeath]

Although technically we don't KNOW that Jaime didn't do anything about the Wildfire

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Jaime is clearly being dishonorable once again. No amount of justification about how he tried to get the girls but couldn't matters. A prisoner swap agreement was made between him and Cat. Jaime for the girls. If Jaime cannot deliver, he needs to surrender himself back into custody. The Blackfish even mentions this in the passage. Jaime, of course, refuses to do it because his honor has never been more important to him than his own desires.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I suspect that Varys must have had it removed, because he was using open fire, braziers, etc. down there. Also, the Red Keep didn't go up in flames when Cersei burned down the Tower of the Hand.

Don't see how she could do it on purpose, since nobody knows where the caches are, apart from, possibly, Varys. But it seems increasingly likely that KL would experience massive riots in the near future, and fires go hand in hand with them, so the city may burn that way.

OTOH, Varys should be aware of such a possibility, and he wants Aegon to have the capital intact and is in the best position to know locations of the remaining caches. So, he has either already dealt with them or is in the process of doing so. IMHO, YMMV.

Cersei ordered huge amounts of wildfire during ACOK and AFFC to fight Stannis and then to burn down the Tower of the Hand. In AFFC she really liked burning down the Tower of the Hand, so if she really loses all her power in Winds of Winter, it would be according to her character to burn down KL (like Aerys did when all was lost)

[Mrs_Darcy]

Although technically we don't KNOW that Jaime didn't do anything about the Wildfire

If he did not do anything about the cache in the Sept of Baelor, which he clearly remembered in ASOS and which had the potential to kill a lot of people due to its location, then I heavily doubt, he did do anyting about the rest.

[gnrmjd]

You guys make good points.

But now I wanna bring up the Aerys thing.

Jaime brings up the Blackfish looks at him like Ned does.

Despite how much he's changed, Jaime still seems convinced he did the right thing by not telling what happened with the Mad King because Ned Stark had already judged him.

Do you believe Jaime is right? I believe that he's being stubborn (Like that teenager analogy where he sulks) and I really think that had he explained himself things could have gone differently. But he had to present himself in such a way that anybody would judge him harshly. And he still thinks he was right ("Who is the wolf to judge the lion")

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Technically the besieging was already underway and the threatening hadn't happened yet

I'm guessing that the Blackfish doesn't give too many fucks about that "technically didn't lie" concept. I sympathize, I've always found it stupid myself.