How different would the story be if Ned seized the Throne over Robert?

[Brandon the Wise]

I posted this on the IMDb forums seeking serious answers but I got mainly sarcastic replies about how there wouldn't be a story, I even got a ridiculous reply about how it would effect the world of Mordor!

Anyway, I'm merely being hypothetical here, we know enough about the characters to speculate how they would act if this occured. Ned, Jon and Robert basically won the kingdom by Right of Conquest and between them needed to decide who would rule, they chose Robert as his claim was stronger because of his Targ roots. But what if Ned became king, how different would the story be do you think? Would the country be at peace? Would the Lannisters still be power hungry or would Ned punish Tywin for his involvement with the murder of Elia? Who would rule Winterfell? Benjen?

What do you think?

[The Fallen]

` Peace and prosperity.

- Sers Jaime, Gregor and Amory Lorch dead.

- Lord Tywin dead.

- Robb betrothed to Arriane.

[Brandon the Wise]

I'd like to think Ned would send Jaime to the wall, Jon must have known something about the Mad King's plan to blow up KL so I reckon he'd pardon him and make him take the black.

[Lord Corry Stark]

Benjen Stark would have became the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. Ned would have been a fine King, I think the 7 kingdoms would have done very well.

[David Selig]

Most of the realm South of the Neck would've rebelled against him due to him being a Northern infidel and he would've lost the throne quickly.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

I think people may have taken an issue with Ned not keeping the Seven. But I don't think that would be a great majority. (People are forgetting that the smallfolk didn't care about Targ incest even after the dragons died?) I think the smallfolk don't really care about such details as long as they're left in peace.

As for Ned... well, I think this fandom tends to idealise Ned too much. Who knows how a crown would have changed him? Though he'd be heaps better than Aerys II, Robert and Joffrey, that's for sure. I just hard to believe the "everyone would be so happy! peace and prosperity!!!1!!" option. Come on guys, this is Westeros, not an effin slumber party.

I think Jaime would be sent to the Wall for sure, and House Lannister would suffer a huge blow. Aside from Jaime being sent to the Wall, Ned would most likely execute Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane as well. I think Varys would be sent away (either to the Wall or to exile, I don't know) as Ned disliked Varys greatly and always mistrusted him, as obvious from all his POVs.

Most importantly though, his heirs would actually be HIS OWN heirs :D

Though I don't think he'd have any difficulty keeping the crown. Houses Baratheon, Tully and Arryn would side with him after all.

[JoeyBanana]

Let's assume Ned seizes the throne when he meets Jaime.

1) Jaime is imprisoned, Tywin is ordered to be imprisoned for murdering Elia and her children. Lannisters easily overwhelm Ned's men and kill or capture him.

2) War continues with Lannister vs Rebells. Stannis dies, Riverlands get destroyed, SK split into Vale & North and Southern Kingdoms. No Jon Arryn, Dorne turns on Tyrell/Lannister.

3) Willas becomes King and Cersei Queen. Jaime stays KG for twincest reasons.

4) In the end, Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, Arryns all lose, the Lannisters/Tyrells are in power, Dorne supports the Targs (just more openly)

I guess players would be:

Roose Bolton (North)

Arryn replacement (Vale)

Walder Frey (Riverlands)

Lannister/Tyrell

Dorne with Arianne & Jon

The only difference would be Jon in Dorne and many Vale/Dorne/Northern/Riverlands/Stormlands nobles/soldiers in the Night's Watch. Oh the irony.

[Cookiesbane]

Hmm,

• Tywin and Jaime take the black for their war crimes. The Lannisters might try to fight against Ned for that decision but they are alone against the North, the Riverards, the Vale and the Stormlands. Dorne supports Ned because he punished elia's murderers.
  
• Jon parentage remains hidden to avoid problems with the IT and Winterfell successions. I guess in this timeline he also takes the black or becomes a knight and a member of the Kingsguard.
  
• Due to his honor Ned takes the wrong decision at some point and gets jipped by the Tyrells or betrayed by Robert.
  

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

• Due to his honor Ned takes the wrong decision at some point and gets jipped by the Tyrells or betrayed by Robert.

This one wins. (No sarcasm, I'm serious.) I can totally see this happen :D

[Jo498]

That Faith of Seven vs. Old Gods apparently is not a real source of political conflict at all is something really puzzling about the books. One wonders why he put those different religions in there at all.

[Northbound3.0]

Most of the realm South of the Neck would've rebelled against him due to him being a Northern infidel and he would've lost the throne quickly.

Why must you continue to hate the Northern master race, so much!?!? :cool4:

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

That Faith of Seven vs. Old Gods apparently is not a real source of political conflict at all is something really puzzling about the books. One wonders why he put those different religions in there at all.

I think the reason for that is because the North is so remote that up until recently, the worshippers of the said religions didn't interact as much to create conflicts? In ASoS, however, some Southrons were very quick to label Northmen as "savages who worship trees" or "they worship demons, wolves, etc..." So clearly, there's some ground for a conflict, but it hadn't been necessary or there hasn't been an opportunity until recently?

[Bob Sacamano]

Let's assume Ned seizes the throne when he meets Jaime.

1) Jaime is imprisoned, Tywin is ordered to be imprisoned for murdering Elia and her children. Lannisters easily overwhelm Ned's men and kill or capture him.

Nope. Not even close. Ned has the Vale, Stormlands, the North and Riverlands behind him. The Lannisters just have themselves. That's why Tywin took such drastic steps at the end of the Rebellion because he was overmatched and needed to show he was loyal to Rebels.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

Jamie definitely is sent to the Wall.

I don't think much of anything happens to Tywin. Gregor is beheaded for rape and murder of a Queen. Cersei marries someone else of significant power, I don't believe it is the Martells.

Benjen becomes the Stark of Winterfell as he has not taken the black yet. I believe they bring in house Martell for the atrocities done to Elia, maybe Benjen marrying Arinne or a betrothal to Robb as well as a Martell on the small council. Jon Arryn is hand of the King.

The Targ children will not be hunted but kept as wards in Winterfell or Dragonstone.

Varys is the wildcard, not sure what Ned does with him, but his presence would change almost everything.

Littlefinger still becomes Master of Coin and Lysa still murders Arryn.

Tywin and Cersei are still brooding and there will be unrest and Ned is killed in some fashion.

[MotherMerciless]

Putting myself in Ned's boots, and assuming I'd end up having the same kids as in the books:

Jaime to the Wall after being judged

Tywin killed after being judged

Pycelle expelled from the order and killed after being judged

Tyrion is hier to Casterly Rock, invited to the Council

Robb marries Arriane Martell, he would be the Stark in Winterfell.

Sansa marries Willas Tyrell

Arya would be sent to Dorne for a while, to see if she grows fond of anyone there. I would get her Syrio as a travelling companion too

Bran sent to Oldtown for a while, under the guidance of Maester Luwin. This is meant as a learning experience, his future would be planned out later on

My bastard son would have a choice between marrying a Sand Snake and living with Robb in Winterfell, going with Bran to Oldtown and staying there and persue the path of the Maester, or go to the Wall.

Stannis Baratheon invited to Council, and perhaps Hand of the King

Robert Baratheon would need an honorable position, preferably with military functions, not sure if I'd trust him in the Council but I'd have to I guess.

If I was evil, Cersei would be married off to Walder Frey... but I just... nobody deserves that. I'd leave it to Tyrion I guess, especially since I'd have no right to tell her who to marry.

[No Song so Sweet]

If Ned becomes king and they are still in good terms with Robert, then I guess:

1. Jamie is imprisoned and forced to take the black.
   
2. The hand of the king is still Jon Arryn.
   
3. Gregor and Lorch dead/take the black.
   
4. Tywin is isolated from the king and has no court influence (no seats in the castles). Cersei probably has to marry into the Families of the Reach or the Dornish.
   
5. The Greyjoy rebellion is smashed by Robert and Stannis instead of Ned and Stannis, because Balon is too stupid to team up with dissatisfied Tywin and have any chances of success.
   
6. The Dornish are now at much better terms with the king and have no need to rebel,
   
7. Robert is still in love with dead Lyanna and doesn't want to marry, but still bangs everything that moves. In the end he gets some noblewoman pregnant and then has to marry her. Probably some Dornish gal.
   
8. Robb would be the castellan of Winterfell and the warden of the North.
   
9. Jon would... we don't know. Depends on who his parents actually are and who would be the one Ned sends to Lyanna/ Ashara. He would probably know the truth about his mother though and wouldn't end up at the wall.
   

It seems the realm is much better, but after all those things sooner or later Ned will screw something up because he doesn't know politics and he will get murdered/ betrayed by his allies/ runs out of allies. We don't know how power dynamics would change, but it seems that the components for war are not in place anymore. There is no power-hungry Cersei in the queen's position, no incest Lannister children heirs, no LF in court, no Jon Arryn assassination. Ned's children love him, he would not bring the realm into debt and would hate ruling the smallfolk, but he would be good at it.

[Fat Mac]

Ned doesn't last too long as king. We saw in GoT that he didn't last a year in the political machinations in King's Landing.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Let's assume Ned seizes the throne when he meets Jaime.

1) Jaime is imprisoned, Tywin is ordered to be imprisoned for murdering Elia and her children. Lannisters easily overwhelm Ned's men and kill or capture him.

So Lannister men easily overwhelm men that outnumber them 3-1? Sounds kinda fishy.

[Fat Mac]

So Lannister men easily overwhelm men that outnumber them 3-1? Sounds kinda fishy.

I believe Ned rode to KL with a smaller force, since the main force had just fought at the trident. I doubt they outnumbered the Lannisters 3 to 1.

[Hodor's Dragon]

His reign would start out on the wrong foot, as he does not have Targaryen blood like Robert does. Robert can at least spin a story about saving the realm from the Mad King, and then when all the sad and unnecessary carnage was over, he was first in the royal line of succession. Ned doesn't have a story like that, so he would just be a straight-up usurper and rebel.

Would the little prince and princess even be dead? I think there's an implication that Robert at least gave Tywin a nod and a wink on that plan, if not outright ordered it. As readers, we don't actually know what happened, as neither Robert nor Tywin nor Gregor are POV characters.

So there's that problem. Jon Snow is a problem, too. The idea of hiding Jon Snow's birthright from him is already a little ethically shaky as is in the books, but you can justify it by saying you can't trust a child to keep a secret and Robert would have him killed if Jon let the secret out. In this scenario, though, there's no justification, and presuming Rhaegar and Lyanna were married before his birth, which seems to be the case, Jon is the rightful king and Ned can be no more than a regent.

So if we're going to assume, though, that Ned is a king and not a regent, we're going to have to assume he hides Jon's rights from him with no obvious justification. Next, you'd have to think that either (1) Ned turns a blind eye to Rhaegar's children (which is pretty much the same as ordering them killed), (2) he orders them killed, or (3) they're still around, and a HUGE problem. Whatever has happened, though, is Ned's responsibility, not anybody else's, because the question of what to do with the crown prince's children is not exactly an afterthought when you're overthrowing a throne. I see no reason whatsoever for Tywin to do this on his own unless he has good reason to think Ned would be grateful.

Whichever choice he has taken with little Aegon and Rhaenys, Ned's precious honor is a bit worse for wear for starters for not giving over the thrown to Jon. From a political standpoint, he is in a problematic situation with no legal or moral justification for seizing the throne, and at least one pretender running around with a superior claim.

As we've already seen, Ned is a total joke at politics and capital intrigue. (Tell Cersei you're about to drop the hammer on her? Really?) I don't see this going well.