Thoros is a hypocrite and doesn't know jack about justice

[LordStoneheart]

A common misconception about the Brotherhood Without Banners is “how far they’ve fallen” after Beric gave his seventh life to Catelyn and she took over as Lady Stoneheart. The probable reason for this is in Brienne VIII when Thoros says this:

Lord Beric’s fire has gone out of this world, I fear. A grimmer shadow leads us in his place.

…..

“Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes… but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

Thoros is so distraught that the Brotherhood is now fallen. But Thoros is only right about one thing here: Justice is what they told themselves they were about. Justice is not what they were doing. They were outlaws, thieves, robbers, and kidnappers. That taste must have been Arbor gold.

Let’s take a look at Sandor’s farce of a trial:

"You will die soon enough, dog," promised Thoros, "but it shan't be murder, only justice."

"Aye," said the Mad Huntsman, "and a kinder fate than you deserve for all your kind have done. Lions, you call yourselves. At Sherrer and the Mummer's Ford, girls of six and seven years were raped, and babes still on the breast were cut in two while their mothers watched. No lion ever killed so cruel."

"I was not at Sherrer, nor the Mummer's Ford," the Hound told him. "Lay your dead children at some other door."

Thoros answered him. "Do you deny that House Clegane was built upon dead children? I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne. By rights your arms should bear two bloody infants in place of those ugly dogs."

The Hound's mouth twitched. "Do you take me for my brother? Is being born Clegane a crime?"

"Murder is a crime."

"Who did I murder?"

The next block of text is a list of names they decide to blame on Sandor, all because they name him a “lion.”

"People," said Lord Beric. "People great and small, young and old. Good people and bad people, who died on the points of Lannister spears or saw their bellies opened by Lannister swords."

"It wasn't my sword in their bellies. Any man who says it was is a bloody liar."

"You serve the Lannisters of Casterly Rock," said Thoros.

"Once. Me and thousands more. Is each of us guilty of the crimes of the others?" Clegane spat. "Might be you are knights after all. You lie like knights, maybe you murder like knights."

Is this justice? (It certainly isn’t when Dany does it to the slavers for the children.)

The Brotherhood is fully ready to blame others’ crimes on Sandor. The trial by combat begins when they have one actual witness to a crime he did commit, the murder of Mycah. Sandor confesses to this and gives his reason as just serving the crown.

Beric Dondarrion turned back to the Hound. "You stand accused of murder, but no one here knows the truth or falsehood of the charge, so it is not for us to judge you. Only the Lord of Light may do that now. I sentence you to trial by battle."

Sandor kills Beric and is proclaimed innocent. What a complete joke. He confessed to the crime and there was an accuser, yet he wins his innocence in the eyes of Lord of Light. This is not justice. This is religious fanaticism.

Let’s look at another Sandor quote:

I'm the same as you.

The only difference is, I don't lie about what I am. So, kill me, but don't call me a murderer while you stand there telling each other that your shit don't stink. You hear me?"

Very fitting and applicable to later when Thoros laments about the Brotherhood’s current direction. Originally they were about killing anyone who had any connections to the lions, and now they’re killing anyone with a connection to the Frey, Lannisters, and Boltons. If anything, they are more successful with Stoneheart because they've branched out their terrorism and guilty-by-association murders and hangings.

I suspect that the thing that Thoros truly misses is Beric, not their former “glory” days. That’s understandable. I imagine fighting with and resurrecting a man six times creates a strong bond. I can sympathize with that. But he is a massive hypocrite and delusional to think he used to be delivering justice and is now somehow worse. Thoros is still lying about who he is. Stoneheart is not.

Say what you want about her. She is not lying to everyone and herself and declaring her actions “justice.” I suspect Thoros has at least a small inkling of what a hypocrite he is being. After all, he is still around and helping her feed the crows.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Spot on.

Furthermore, Lady Stoneheart actually holds fair trials. Proof: Merrett Frey.

[dread pirate davos]

If they killed every one connected to the lannisters they would've killed Sandor. I mean they gave him a trial. And to be fair he admitted to killing Micah not murdering him. I mean agree that justice and vengeance are the same thing to a lot of people. Thoros probably misses the days when they were protecting the small folk and fighting lorche and the mountain. Whereas now they hang fresh without discrimination. Add to that brienne had just been abducted and hung without any real trial immediately after saving a inn full of children. Personally I think Thoros is right, the brotherhood have lost their way. Sorry it's not the most well written replies I'm on my kindle.

[LordStoneheart]

This is specifically what Thoros meant by "or so we told ourselves".

Essentialy he means they set out to deliver justice, ie justice for the people of the riverland against Gregor. But this became a more personal mission of revenge against any Lannister and then northmen as well. They lost their true meaning along the way and anyone who served their foes became their foes. Its logical really to call Sandor a criminal in such a case but certainly not ethical.

They became outlaws because they were regarded as outlaws and did what the had to to survive. At their best they were defenders, at their worst, executioners. Theres a thin line between a lot of what they do being right and wrong and while some of what they do can be consodered unethical blatantly executing every person related to the Freys, Lannisters or Red Wedding, no matter how little is far worse than placing a known Lannister sympathiser, who is dark, cruel and considered widely as evil (lets face it he was pretty mean).

Exactly. They did lose themselves along their way but it happened well before Lady Stoneheart was a thing.

[LordStoneheart]

If they killed every one connected to the laminates they would've killed Sandor. I mean they gave him a trial. And to be fair he admitted to killing Micah not murdering him. I mean agree that justice and vengeance are the same thing to a lot of people. Thoros probably misses the days when they were protecting the small folk and fighting lorche and the mountain. Whereas now they hang fresh without discrimination. Add to that brienne had just been abducted and hung without any real trial immediately after saving a inn full of children. Personally I think Thoros is right, the brotherhood have lost their way.

Brienne was given a trial. The evidence was against her and she implicated herself by defending Jaime and refusing an order. This is considerably better than just assuming Sandor was still working for the Lannisters and then letting him go because their god told them to.

[House Hendrix of Rock]

IMHO, You interpret the first quote wrongly and went on a rant from there on.

When they set out, they were Justice in it's purest form:

- ordered by the Hand of the king, and most honorable man in Westeros in front of all the court

- defending the oaths of knighthood, against one who joined The dark Side so to say.

After that no one is in a postition to serve "justice" and no one does.

And are you suprised that a Red Priest is a religieus fanatic rather than a judge ?

Edit: sorry but you hit a sweet spot ;)

[LordStoneheart]

The first quote is quite clear and supports what they thought of themselves back when we first meet them. I'm not surprised that Thoros is a fanatic, I am just annoyed that many seem to think he has any credibility in the area of justice or knighthood. The rant was about how Thoros may think they've fallen far because of Stoneheart but in reality have not really. What they have lost was the lying to themselves that they are about justice. Sweet lies. Thoros wants them back.

[David Selig]

I think Thoros hates that they lost Beric, their leader and guide, the man who gave them spirit and ambition and got lady stoneheart. Shes took them away from Berics goal (albeit blurry) of defending the Riverlands

Nope, they are still doing that.

In their new goal they were, in his eyes abandoning them to pursue a goal non of them truly believed in and was entirely removed from his ideals and beliefs.

Why would the BWB be following Stoneheart if none of them truly believes in her goal? It is not like they owed her anything or she is forcing them in some way.

Anyway, I think it's absurd that so many people are incensed about Brienne's trial because "Beric's were so much better" given that as explained in the OP, Sandor's trial was a total mockery of justice on some many levels. Brienne was unfortunate that there was so much material evidence against her - yet she still got her chance to prove her innocence. Way better.

[Mark Antony]

Well done OP :cheers:

[House Hendrix of Rock]

I believe Thoros believes they have fallen far from the justice the set out to restore, and is more heavily reminded of this by getting orders from the zombie wife of the man that sent him and Dondarrion out in the first place.

[LordStoneheart]

I believe Thoros believes they have fallen far from the justice the set out to restore, and is more heavily reminded of this by getting orders from the zombie wife of the man that sent him and Dondarrion out in the first place.

first off, Revenant. ;)

Second, orders he's willingly following. If he truly had a problem with them he'd leave.

Third, I do understand that it's vastly different than what they set out to do but I am insisting this is not solely because of Stoneheart. They fell long before her but in Thoros' grief I think he's unfairly placing blame on her instead of themselves and the situations they found themselves in.

The trials are no part of my arguement with me. I agree that they are just as fair as each other.

As for the BWB following Lady Stoneheart, well they follow R'Hollor. The fact she was risen by his power means she is of the faith and would follow her. I imagine Thoros isnt the only ney sayer.

As for the protecting the Riverlands, under lady Stoneheart the approach has changed, no one can deny that.

Wrong. There is no evidence that Lady S is of the red faith. The other naysayers left. The ones still there have got nothing to complain about if they're there by choice.

[James Arryn]

Who is Jack, and why is he being judged without a trial?